Parry...

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

As a healer I've found healing tanks wearing dragoon gear to take a ton of spike damage.

Maybe you didn't appear to take as much damage because your healers had good mitigation on you.

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Last I heard, you can play on more than 1 job in this game, and I logged out on my 3rd, which happens to be Dragoon. Had I logged on out m level 8 Armorer, would you have made the same moronic comment?

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

So, after re-testing on a Striking Dummy, my Paladin is getting 115 DPS in Parry gear, and 135 DPS in my Cirt/Determination set. I personally find that to be significant enough a change to be worth looking into if Parry is not as good as we all think it is.

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Do you have an oath on? Also with SE in love with tank swaps that kind of dps increase is prob gona play havoc with other tanks enmity.

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Originally Posted by Acala

Do you have an oath on? Also with SE in love with tank swaps that kind of dps increase is prob gona play havoc with other tanks enmity.

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I always have Shield Oath on when I am tanking. (My very vocal healers make sure to that!)

I always Oath swap when I'm not actively tanking. So far, Sword Oath is not overpowering my OT's Enmity after we swap, so in my testing it has not been detrimental, however I trust my Off Tank very greatly, Your mileage may vary. =P

I agree with OP.

Most Tank BiS lists are built on the premise of Parry > everything else after hittig Acc cap. The idea is that damage mitigation is more important than damage output.

However, the returns on Parry are piss poor. A tank that has 50 more Parry takes about 1% less overall damage.

It really doesn't friggin matter how your secondary stats are allocated, as long as you're Accuracy capped and you're not wasting too many stats by having too much Accuracy. Keep your Accuracy at or barely above the cap and you're golden. Parry is not #1.

so since all the BiS lists I find on the interwebz are based off of Parry/Acc, I bring up two questions: Determination or Crit, and what IS a good BiS list depending other than a parry one?

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

so since all the BiS lists I find on the interwebz are based off of Parry/Acc, I bring up two questions: Determination or Crit, and what IS a good BiS list depending other than a parry one?

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The one I posted in my OP? =P

It gives thees added stats without food. (I recommend Buttons in a Blanket HQ)
Accuracy: +177 (You can cap without food for all of the 2nd Coil)
Critical Hit Rate: +104
Determination: +104
Skill Speed: +13
Parry: + +94

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

so since all the BiS lists I find on the interwebz are based off of Parry/Acc, I bring up two questions: Determination or Crit, and what IS a good BiS list depending other than a parry one?

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For PLD who uses Sword Oath when tank swapping (boost to AA damage) the best choice is DET.
War would probably be Crit because of using the OT rotation while in Defiance.

Hmm.. Not sure what to think about this. Parry is pretty much our one unique tanking stat, seems a little silly to completely disregard it. Also seems a little silly that it has such horrible returns. Either way 2% more mitigation or 5% more dps doesn't seem like much of a game changer. For Warrior I'd still take the mitigation since they already have less native mitigation than Paladin.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

The one I posted in my OP? =P

It gives thees added stats without food. (I recommend Buttons in a Blanket HQ)
Accuracy: +177 (You can cap without food for all of the 2nd Coil)
Critical Hit Rate: +104
Determination: +104
Skill Speed: +13
Parry: + +94

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Aaaah, my apologies. I read the thread a few days ago and decided to comment now (maybe you edited in the post, or I'm just an idiot :p )

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

For PLD who uses Sword Oath when tank swapping (boost to AA damage) the best choice is DET.
War would probably be Crit because of using the OT rotation while in Defiance.

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First off, Paladins should ALWAYS be using Sword Oath while not tanking. End of Story. You post far too great a threat to the group with a spike in RoH Damage, an dyou sacrifice a Damage De-Buff, as well as DPS by just using Riot Blade. In Essence, you prolong the fight because of being lazy.
2nd, Going for Crit only is like asking for RNG instead of Consistency. If that's what you like, then OK... have fun with that.

Finally, you actually can't achieve numbers with any other set that are as high as the one I posted.

If you stat for just Crit, you can't actually Hit your Target with food on. You just don't get access to enough accuracy.
If you stat just for Determination, you actually lose out on determination, because you can't use Determination food. My list gives you +119 with food on, and it's over accuracy cap, but full on Determination gear after accuracy food (Which is required if you stat that way) if only at 117.
In both instances you drop at least 11 of the other stat, and with my list you maximize both after food, since my list also gives you a total of 518 accuracy without food.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Aaaah, my apologies. I read the thread a few days ago and decided to comment now (maybe you edited in the post, or I'm just an idiot :p )

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It was there from the initial post. (Not edited too!) =P No worries!

If parry scaled too well, we'd faced the WoW tank scenario where stat bloat led to near impervious tanks under certain conditions. In order for content to not be trivial, stats must stay roughly static. Tanks in i90 vs i110 gain more hp but overall mitigation increases very little. This means that only incoming damage must be scaled in order for SE to keep content challenging. If you had no problems without parry in 1-5, nothing should change for 6-9. If you stacked parry and it worked, nothing should change either.

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Originally Posted by Pizzaparty7

If parry scaled too well, we'd faced the WoW tank scenario where stat bloat led to near impervious tanks under certain conditions. In order for content to not be trivial, stats must stay roughly static. Tanks in i90 vs i110 gain more hp but overall mitigation increases very little. This means that only incoming damage must be scaled in order for SE to keep content challenging. If you had no problems without parry in 1-5, nothing should change for 6-9. If you stacked parry and it worked, nothing should change either.

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Elemental resistances would be a great way to offset this otherwise linear and generic approach. And I am a firm believer that tanks should be impervious under certain conditions.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

so since all the BiS lists I find on the interwebz are based off of Parry/Acc, I bring up two questions: Determination or Crit, and what IS a good BiS list depending other than a parry one?

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You're missing the point. The difference between secondary stats is so minimal because they all pretty much equally suck. We're basically splitting hairs here.

Building some lists for War.. Here's what I've found for possible BiS, and then a possible BiS list minimizing Parry:

Hybrid BiS - (fairly balanced)

Coil 2 Weapon, Body, Waist, Legs, Earrings, Wrist, Ring
Noct Head, Hands, Feet, Neck, Ring

VITALITY - 610 (+355)
STRENGTH - 422 (+213)
ACCURACY - 508 (+167)
PARRY - 511 (+170)
CRITICAL - 401 (+60)
DETER - 271 (+69)
SK SPD - 385 (+44)


Hybrid No Parry -

(both body pieces have parry, Noct hands do not have parry but cause too much accuracy - same with Coil 2 belt)

Coil 2 Body, Hands, Legs, Neck, Ring
Noct Weapon, Head, Waist, Feet, Ear, Wrist, Ring

VITALITY - 606 (+351)
STRENGTH - 419 (+210)
ACCURACY - 508 (+167)
PARRY - 445 (+104)
CRITICAL - 463 (+121)
DETER - 293 (+91)
SK SPD - 354 (+13)

Kinda weird how no Skill Speed showed up.. Adding it seems to require additional parry and/or accuracy. I'm no expert though, just a filthy casual :P

EDIT: sub'd Noct wrist for for coil 2 adding SKSP and a bit of acc while removing parry.

EDIT2: it also doesn't look like you will want to build a "no accuracy" set unless you really like Parry. (+202 par, +129 crit, +87 Det using Tidal Wave Axe)

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Originally Posted by Zourin

Which I can immediately tell you is inaccurate, if not highly misleading. Even Turn 1 can be done with 420 accuracy with zero threat issues and no whiffing/combo problems, which is a far cry from your churlish estimates.

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I can tell you unless it is an RNG thing, he is right. I miss a ton in turn 1 and would always loose hate on the split if I tried to OT. We changed tactics of course to make up for it, but I might hit 1 combo for every 3.

Kitru isn't posting enough long paragraphs in this thread. I'm disappointed.

Maybe it's just because I've never been a whore for BiS, but I've never much subscribed to the idea that I need to constantly load up on parry parry parry parry parry along with my accuracy. My first priority is accuracy because I refuse to miss. After that, I've always been of the belief that a minimal increase in parry is worth far less than packing some extra punch on a constant basis. With rare exception (like when being busy on dreads in T5), I am never not wailing on a boss, and especially never not wailing on mob pulls. The shorter I can help make a fight, the better for me, for healers, for everyone. Maximizing output as much as I can while maintaining high caps for accuracy and parry is completely win-win.

What are you using to see the damage mitigated ACT keeps track of % chance of parry during a fight why just look at total damage, its a bad representation especially if the boss can crit, the boss doesnt always hit for the same amount of damage each attack total damage also doesnt take into account how well you timed your cooldowns

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Originally Posted by Koneko-Senpai

What are you using to see the damage mitigated ACT keeps track of % chance of parry during a fight why just look at total damage, its a bad representation especially if the boss can crit, the boss doesnt always hit for the same amount of damage each attack total damage also doesnt take into account how well you timed your cooldowns

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Because of the nature of RNG, total damage is the only real objective way to look at the contributions of Parry (and Block); you can't rely on it to mitigate any predetermined amount of incoming damage (only estimate what it may) and certainly can't rely on it to activate when it would be needed the most. Sure there are personal instances in which a Parry or Block activation prevented death, but the frequency with which it happens is abysmal currently.

Total damage has to be the worst indication of how much damage is actually mitigated ACT has a parry chance for a reason, Total damage doesnt take into account what if the boss crits what if you didnt use a cooldown when you should of, theres alot of variables in total damage, say 503 parry gives you a 20% chance to parry and 603 gives you a 25% chance that becomes you have a 25% chance to parry or 25% chance to block with onion shield thats alot of mitigation

ACT literally tells you how many times you parried/how many times attacked

Sorry i was rereading everything and what, its different for both our classes i feel PLD should gear to parry and warrior shouldnt, the classes are so different >.> it seems that all the PLD are saying gear to Parry (correct we lose 20% of our damage anyway so 50 det 60 crit does next to nothing) warriors shouldnt they should gear to damage (cause they do damages and have a huge hp pool that compensates for a lack of mitigation)

Warriors and Paladins have the same effective health, roughly. Keep in mind that Shield Oath exists alongside Defiance.

Parry is actually more important on a Warrior as that is literally the only stat-based mitigation a Warrior has. Stacking STR is something to consider, but not OVER Parry. Even with pentamelded Gryphonskin you want to cap the Parry on it as one of your highest priorities (behind VIT).

Of course, as this thread shows, Parry isn't that great because of how little bang for your buck you get per increase (or just in general). This is true of all the secondary stats except Accuracy and (sort of) Determination. You shouldn't ignore Parry all together, though, especially as a WAR.

The whole thread seems to use the info at start that each point of parry is 0.015% per point, while it actually is about 0.08 %. That's a very significant difference. Every 13 parry give you 1% more chance to parry.

Currently, gearing for parry, a pld can go to about 28% parry rate in ilvl90, while with zero additional parry you would be sitting at 10%. I don't know in what world that seems negligible to me. I personnally which tank i want in my party.

Compare this to the fact that you need about 50 secondary stats (det, crit or ss) to increase your damage output by 1%. It is simple, parry is outstanding. You should definitely look to max out parry on top of having enough acc to never miss a hit. Once you have done that, if you still have a choice, whatever, get some det or crit. Atta boy. In the mean time, focus on what you need to focus: surviving.

Not that I dispute your numbers Casper, but where did you get them from? If they are correct then parry is clearly the optimal stat.

I did my own testing. Pretty easy : go gather a pack to 8-10 low levels ennemy somewhere, without shield, let them hit you for 5-10 minutes, do the same with only your weapon so you are stripped of almost all your parry. First case if bis for parry you'll get about 28% parry (i have about 26% missing TT head), second case you'll drop to 12 or so if your weapon have parry, or 10 if it doesnt. I did this a numlber of time, used bosses, whatever. Everything is consistent with 10% parry at 321 or whatever the base stat number is at 50, then 1% per 13 parry. That is also what was tested very early in the game, so that's why i was surprised with number in this new thread.

Don't forget never to use a shield btw. Block is computed before parry, so if you have 40% block rate you will reduce the parry rate you observe by 40%. Also don't forget to dismiss all the misses from low level ennemies.

I think the confusion came from some poeple said 50 parry is 1% damage reduction. It is true, because it is about 4% parry rate at 24%, which is roughly 1% DR. Somehow someone must have thought this meant 50 parry was 1% parry rate, but it is definitely not.

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Originally Posted by Casper

I think the confusion came from some poeple said 50 parry is 1% damage reduction. It is true, because it is about 4% parry rate at 24%, which is roughly 1% DR. Somehow someone must have thought this meant 50 parry was 1% parry rate, but it is definitely not.

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Unless they were talking about the effect of Parry on a shield's Block Rate. From what I've seen testing the effects of STR and Block Strength earlier this week, it's pretty obvious STR scales alot better on Parry than Shield and since Shields have a secondary modifier on block rate that has a much more potent, Parry is probably scaled way down in order to prevent PLD's from being OP.

Casper, You can't always test on Low level mobs. I did plenty of testing on both Turns 4 and 6, and my healers didn't notice any difference on 10 attempts with my 627 Parry set, vs another 10 with my 490 Parry set. I didn't even tell them until after the 20 runs for a blind test result, so they wouldn't be mystically creating anything.
Both with an identical Shield on.
So If you would like to re-test on level 50+ mobs in a Dungeon run, or keep running the same dungeon over and over again, and see how effective the stats are in real time, be my guest. I'm not seeing it personally, and the "1%" Damage increase is totally wrong, adding those Determination and Crit stats boosts me 25 DPS, which is over 15% more damage dealt. I think thats worth while.

My testing included turn 6, where the same was true. Those things are hard, if not impossible, to judge by youself, as human mind is especially bad at judging probabilities. Given a serie of numbers, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 15% and a 22% occurence for example. Yet it exists. Any non-parse guesstimation is void in my book, sorry. Numbers don't lie.

I also tested extensively on level 47 monsters ( sets of 300 to 400 hits). on t6 in a given attempt my parry rate, which should be around 22% once you factor blocking, was sometime 5% and sometime 35%, due to the limited amout of hits (under 100 on any given try) of course your ealers cant tell the difference between 15% and 22%. doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is not huge :)

To give you a comparison of what your "testing" achieved:

Ask a friend to watch yourself kill ennemies while you use a set with 15% crit rate and another with 22% crit rate, without telling him beforehand what you are testing. Afterwards, ask him to tell you if he thought there was a difference in the speed at which things died, and if so which one was the fastest. There is no way for someone to give an accurate answer to this. Not only watching with the eye is not accurate, but you WILL crit more with the 15% set than with the 22% set on a non-negligible number of fights. 15 to 22% crit rate also imply the stacking of over 150 crit rate in stats. This doesn't mean crit rate is negligible. It is just very hard to evaluate its impact without proper tools, as is parry.

So 50 parry is 1% dmg reduction? I made BiS set focusing on det+crit and a set focusing on parry, the difference is a little over 100 parry. So thats 200hp on a 10k hp pool. 200/15=13 vit. That is the hp of a single i80 accessory if you would die from physical hits only. In return for wads of crit and det that might just force a phase change or kill faster. If that 2% on physical hits is make or break for you and the healers, you are probably severely undergeared for the content, and wont be having a BiS set anytime soon anyway.

I feel parry is mainly an aoe tank stat. Dropping 500 parry would be a bad idea, and is impossible, but up to 150 should not whipe raids.

The problem is not going 100 to zero. It is what adds overtime for your healers that need to dodge mechanics, heal the raid and the other tank and dps that eat random crap. Anything you can do to help them, you should.


If the difference is 100 parry, then the difference in secondary stats is about 100 total det/crit/SS. 50 of those adds about 1% to your damage. 100 would amount to 2% of your dps. Given a tank is going to do 100 to 120 dps on most fights, you are quite literally talking about adding 2 to 3 dps to the 1000 to 1200 dps of your group. I am quite certain you are better off with the parry.

I don't know why people that want so badly to poop on parry to justify dps stats can't see objectively at how bad those stats are. 100 parry is about 8% parry rate. Each time you parry (24% DR) you have made things easier for your healers. The abyssmal dps increase you want so badly can not come any close to that, period. Will it wipe raids to lose 100 parry ? Most likely not often, but it WILL make it harder on your healers. Now i can ask you the same question: when does increasing your raid overall dps by 2 to 3 (aka 0.25% of the raid dps) is going to make or break a dps check ? How often do you fail a dps check by 0.25% ? My guess is, much less often than the parry rate helping out.

Pretty sure gearing toward Det/Crit will net you 20DPS increase. I tank T5 Pre 2.2 with Crit Gear and never got Complaint form healer once. I would say parry is good to have but not requirement.
BTW, casper can you tell me how you get only 2-3DPS increase from Det/Crit set? becasue going back a few page there a post that state you gain 15-20DPS for Det/Crit set.

also Parry carry too much randomness (for me that is)><. you can have 100 parry that all happen on boss auto atk and never parry on the big atk. T_T
(look like there a few Det gear on the new PLD set. so i will be gearing more toward Det for i100-i110 ;D)

It is easy enough on crit. You need about 26 crit to get 1% more crit chance. Each crit is 50% damage more than a non-crit. With 50 crit you get about 2% crit chance, so about 1% increase in dps, from your 100 to 120 = 1 to 1.2 dps increase.

Det is on par with that.

Gearing for crit and det you are going to sacrifice about 200 parry. You cant get more than 200 of total det + crit. That's a 4% damage increase, so 5 dps increase. Absolutely no way this will let you win 15-20. Not as if people claiming that did anything more than finger in the wind testing anyway to back up their claim.

I urge you to test by yourself. It IS underwhelming.

By the way, if you gear for Str accessories, that is another story entirely; in this case you can win more dps (but you sacrifice vitality too there). However, even in this case, you should still stack up on parry before starting adding det/crit on your melds.

I see, Thank for the Info.
hopefully I have enough luck for Coil to drop some tank stuff with parry.
other wise i prolly goin with iLV > acc > w/e i have at the time lol.

I consistently up my DPS by 25 with my Crit/Determination gear on. I'm gearing entirely with Crit/Determination for i110.
I don't see why you are saying things like 4-5 DPS, because when a Paladin goes from averaging between 80 and 100 up to averaging 125-130, That is a huge boost in overall damage that NEVER stops hitting the boss. Then there are the times when you Off Tank, or Tank Swap, and go into Sword Oath. Your giving yourself a tremendous boost at that point, and every single point in Parry is wasted for that time.
Based on that alone, fights like T6 giving you 50% of the fight NOT getting hit, I would say you are wasting a lot of potential damage.
And FYI, My group has wiped to T6 at EXACTLY .2% Which would have been a kill if I was in my Crit/Determination gear that time.

So, Casper is super duper correct. Like, super duper.

For one, let's just say the op's estimate of like 1-2% damage reduction from full parry was right. Yes, this sounds trivial, but you know what else only reduces about 2% damage over time? Hallowed Ground.

Rampart: 20 seconds every 90, 20% reduction = 4.44% DR over time.
Sentinel: 10 seconds every 180, 40% reduction = 2.2% DR over time.
Hallowed Ground: 10 seconds every 420, 100% reduction = 2.38% DR over time.
Convalescence: 20 seconds every 120, 30% healing received = 5% HR over time.
Total increases from cool downs:
9.04% DR over time
11.58% eHP over time
16.58% HR over time

So, if full parry gave you 2%, it would be equal to having an extra sentinel to pop over time. More, this would amount to a 20% increase in total dr over time (2% added to the ~10% from abilities.) so yeah.... It's pretty cool even at this low value.

Not to mention my own testing on turn 5 pre 2.2 has agreed with Casper's value. The returns are very high.

Where parry shines is on big hitting mobs in very strenuous situations. Having so much parry made me able to solo tank twin, which was the only way my group could win. Continuing to have it is allowing us to solo tanking turn 6. Those percentages add up. In places like 5 and 6, in many ways the auto attacks are more dangerous. You don't get killed by the 8 stack cleave, it's the AA after it that drops you. High parry and block gives you a strong statistical chance to mitigate and live in danger situations.

Ps: @50 parry = 1% dr, I'm at about 620 atm. Aka 12.4% Aka more than my entire cool down suite.

If we all look at situation oriented cool downs as Damage Reduction over time like that, then you are playing the wrong class... Go to Warrior, since they can activate IB ALL the time, and access WAY more damage reduction than a Paladin can.

No good tank activates Rampart whenever it's up, nor Sentinel, AND NEVER HALLOWED GROUND.

Those cooldowns are for either emergencies(Healer down, other is rezzing, Range issues etc), or planned spike damage.

You can NOT calculate activated cooldowns into your overall effective HP, because unless intelligently activated, you won't see any proper use of them.

Try running Levi EX, and just pop HG right away, I'm sure your group will be happy with you for that in the middle of the 2nd Spume Phase.