Bigger and better incentives for tanks

http://i.imgur.com/yMk2W.jpg

I find that the expression on Bugs' face describes how I and others tanking feel after a not so nice duty finder run. I don't know what you could do OP to be honest. You could offer all the incentives possible and I think the percentages would still be low to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Raffounz

Really, i love to be a tank... I'm a sword and shield man at first, and never played an endgame MMO... So selected gladiator not knowing what a tank is in an MMO, but then i acknowledged my role. I'm a IlvV90 Paladin, I've done Coil T1-T4 and get all BiS from these, I'm now trying T5, I've killed all three Primal EX. I feel like a shiny diamond across an elite of fewer player (tanks, of course). It's for me a better incentive than any big DPS number...

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If this is your first mmo, than that's pretty impressive progression. I have been playing mmos for 16 years and haven't gotten that far in end game raids/dungeons, but I am lazy, and never lucky enough to get in a good guild capable of such feats. I'm a bit jealous.

I like tanking but it just feels pointless.
The myth cap deters us from spamming high level dungeons, the useless Phil tomes from story dungeons, the low level roulette for charity and let's not forget the useless loot from t4 and primals. Vertical progression doesn't help too, once you get your gear that's it, no point playing it anymore.

They gotta make a loot system where tanks(any role for that matter) can roll for other gear without relying on a greed party(insecurity) . Something similar to "ready check" but you select str, int, dex, etc so you can "NEED" it.

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Originally Posted by Zeral

I like tanking but it just feels pointless.
The myth cap deters us from spamming high level dungeons, the useless Phil tomes from story dungeons, the low level roulette for charity and let's not forget the useless loot from t4 and primals. Vertical progression doesn't help too, once you get your gear that's it, not playing it anymore.

They gotta make a loot system where tanks(any role for that matter) can roll for other gear without relying on a greed party(insecurity) .
Something similar to "ready check" but you select str, int, dex, etc so you can "NEED" it.

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I don't think that loot system will fix anything.

Most players that have been playing for a while have so much Philo they can gear up other jobs in darklight easily. I for instance have a WHM to 45 right now. I've got full darklight waiting for her and another 1200 philo sitting in the wings. The ability to need that other gear wouldn't encourage me to tank those dungeons at all. Honestly, we have a larger problem. There is very little reason to run dungeons right now. Our reward for doing so is some cash, some Philo, and some Myth. As I pointed out the Philo is a joke now since we get it from practically everywhere. With 2.2 and the removal of the myth cap we are going to see a mad bum rush for 50 dungeons again as players start mything out all their alt, however once that phase dies down the dungeons will once again be ignored even worse than they are now. The rewards just aren't interesting or useful for player goals in the long run. The moment we are all minimum i90 with our myth items (cause honestly i90 will be the new i70 in 2.2) these dungeons will be utterly and completely useless. Something far more fundamental than loot rules needs to happen. We need something more that can come out of these chests such as rare crafting items. They need to implement something soon because these dungeons will never be run by nearly any end gamer about two months after 2.2. The way this game is designed practically forces you to constantly gear up so it's not just end gamers who will run into this issue.

TLDR: Over time the dungeon situation is going to get worse and worse unless something serious happens to provide a new and different kind of incentive.

I do tend to agree though. They could offer up the biggest and baddest rewards in the entire game. I still would not play a tank. I dont like playing a tank and never have. The only positive i have gotten from playing a tank over the years, is that you are in control. But that positive wears off pretty damn fast when your getting smacked around by a boss and then verbally smacked around by your own group.

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Originally Posted by mouseno4

I do tend to agree though. They could offer up the biggest and baddest rewards in the entire game. I still would not play a tank. I dont like playing a tank and never have. The only positive i have gotten from playing a tank over the years, is that you are in control. But that positive wears off pretty damn fast when your getting smacked around by a boss and then verbally smacked around by your own group.

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The issue will always persist as long as the tanks are A.) Not fun B.) Not varied C.) Don't do damage (Yep, that's the main excuse for many people.) And D.) The community always blames the tank, and never accepts that they too goof up from time to time.

Actually, all of that along with the new tank swap mechanics are why I stopped playing tank as a serious job anymore. When you are told by people you got carried and are a terrible player, where you sit in one place, or have to hold a boss in the perfect spot... Or perhaps you have to watch stacks, juggle around certain adds and the boss... It's rather annoying. And what does it do? It gives more reason for players to target tanks and call them terrible, without appreciating the fact that player they are nit-picking is playing something that is a rarity... A tank.

Quite frankly, if we could take away the toxicity of the community, and treat tank players better (Let's be honest, the people who main them and will play them outside of their FC/Static are heroes and masochists) along with have less... annoying tactics, less nit-picking, and perhaps a few more tweaks so the general populace may like them more, we may see more and more of them pop up.

The trade off for always being the first one blamed if the crap hits the fan is, the tank can quit and immediately find a new group. This isn't the case for dps or healers. Not saying its right, but it is what it is.

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I like to tank regardless so it's a non-issue for me, but my god there's times when I go into a low level dungeon and just hate it that I have no skills from the level 50 range (that should change in all honesty it's a dated mechanic)

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This is why I don't do low level dungeons. That level sync stuff is awful.

I also don't like to use df on my pld because it seems like every healer I run into is just God awful. I mean full i90 yet some how can't heal. So I just went healer because I just can't deal with awful healers. >.> Not to mention tanking in this game just doesn't feel right. I feel super squishy as a tank.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

The trade off for always being the first one blamed if the crap hits the fan is, the tank can quit and immediately find a new group. This isn't the case for dps or healers. Not saying its right, but it is what it is.

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Of course, that works wonderfully when running in a premade group, but in a DF group? You still have the penalty... It is just not as severe.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

Of course, that works wonderfully when running in a premade group, but in a DF group? You still have the penalty... It is just not as severe.

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Ah true. I always forget about the lockout

I think the main problem with tanking is that the tank is usually expected to be the "leader" of the group. Most players do not want to be the "Leader" of a group, guild, or whatever else in the MMO. It adds pressure and stress onto something that is supposed to be a recreational activity.

Other people, like myself, love being the leader and that added pressure of making sure whatever dungeon run or Raid runs correctly. I also cannot stand bad tanks and nothing makes me want to play a tank more than being a DPS and playing with a bad tank. I look at it that if I play the tank then at the very least I know that portion of the group is going to run correctly.

This comes from 16 years of playing a tank in pretty much every "mainstream" MMO ever released in the U.S. Market (I would wager at least 30-40 different MMOs).

I really don't think giving incentives will ever convince people to play a tank. It takes a certain type of player to want to play the tank and unfortunately that is a rarer type of player. As an example: WoW has added tons of incentives for tanks over the years and none of them ever worked. They still have as much shortage of tanks today as they ever have.

Honestly I think it's more of a preference. In any mmo I play if it doesn't have a sword and shield, I don't play it. I love tanking. But most people prefer killing fast. The grind is faster, the end result is faster, you can kill faster in pvp, in most games as dps. Besides, tanks get a lot of hate in dungeons in this game too, that doesn't make people want to be the leader in a dungeon since you can roll a dps and just silently spam chains without being yelled at ever or not knowing where or what to do in most cases. If a DPS makes a mistake, no one notices for the most part, and all is well, when the tank slips up, all hell breaks loose many times haha.

I tend to agree with the notion that people will shy away from tanking since they are put in a position to lead, perhaps not party leader/strategist or whatever, but to lead their group through the dungeon. It's a negative type of pressure largely and unfortunately, induced by the community in a toxic kind of way. I don't know about others, but for the very few times that I have tanked, I have found that a helpful group that provides reasonable feedback is easier to 'lead' in the way that I've described. Thus, good feedback would be a great incentive; knowing that if I play well I will beat the dungeon, and if I play poorly then I will get some feedback which will allow me to fix my mistakes.

Having said all that, and being totally unrelated, I think a better incentive for tanks might be more playstyles in the form of new classes/jobs. Maybe certain people who like tanking are simply unable to acclimatize to the current jobs/classes we have available. *Hopes for FFXI-style Ninja tank soon*

I'll agree with everybody. Tanks are just default leaders due to the fact that if a dps or hear rushes in they'll quickly die.

That and theres just so much mechanics in a boss fight that rely on tanks leading bosses from x to y spot.

I main PLD and I hate using duty roulette for just about anything on the bright side of it ive played with some really nice and skilled players but for the most its filled with people who don't know how to use there skills move out of aoes and talk a lot of crap. I feel as they bonus 750 gil or whatever they reward you with now isnt worth the trouble and headache for queing as a tank. I've beaten T5 before I've beaten all 3 EX primals the rewards for EX primals as a tank are borderline crap imo they require a extreme amount of effort to do compared to other classes imo and you have to deal with people playing the blame game/kick when people screw up. I just hope SE can do something to where they can make endgame rewarding enough in some way to make me and other people PUG on there tanks more.

I cant actually think of any incentive that would make me want to pug on my paladin solo. I will happly tank coil/primals for my FC i'll even go to CT with my some FC members but puging solo no chance, I would rather heal :)

Recently started tanking as both glad and war. Did a few roulette and stopped puging. Reason was the healers. Lvl 50 synced and running ahead aggroing. Had this in tamtara and satasha. I let the last one die before leaving duty. This happened on 4 of the 5 dungeons I did on low lvl roulette.

I've a level 50 WAR and I rarely use it for roulette, even with the daily tank bonus. The reason is other players. Even if I do everything right, there's always someone who wants to run ahead, pull mobs and get killed only to yell at me for not taking hate. Or healers who just want to nuke and expect me to heal myself (I can be self-sufficient in some dungeons for a while, but in Sastasha I don't exactly have my full package to work with; a cure now and then would be nice). It feels like there's always someone going out of their way to make things as hard as possible for me and then griefing me for not magically fixing things. It's just not worth the annoyance. I'll use it for FC activity with friends, but I'm not going to tolerate PUGs while tanking anymore.

Want more tanks? Stop being *%#^s to tanks.

Had a party yesterday where our tank simply did nothing. he would agro mobs, but he refused to use any weapon skills or hate tools. we tried to talk him into doing his job, but he just ignored us, so the party voted to throw him out after ten minutes of his dickery. I wound up being the main tank for the entire run. (had to respec my pgl with hate tools, but pulled it off.) How's this for incentive: If you plan to play a tank, don't play it half-assed, or no one is going to want to play with you. We have the tools to get rid of freeloaders now, and if you're using duty roulette, there's less likelihood that your party will put up with it.

I just got into a turn 4 party finder where a tank joined and then asked if can get some brd loot drops since he already has everything he wants except from turn 5. The bard called the tank greedy and left. The tank said that he only asked politely and then left. We waited around but there were multiple turn 4 party finders that only had tank spots left to fill. There were party finders for other turns that are lacking tanks too. We eventually disbanded without ever going in. I've been trying to party find turn 4 for like 3 days now, I think. Always the tank. I have enough gear to tank turn 4 and have tanked a win for t4 (months ago before I turned blm lol) before but I cannot go to it as a tank because I want a chance at the casting leggings (enough experience and outside stories to not trust greed agreement).

At this point I think tanks should get a coil wild card drop exclusive to tanks that replaces all allagan tank drops. A token/parcel that only tanks can roll need on and nobody else can greed on so party finders can't force the tank to share it with. The tank can then exchange it for any loot that matches the turn it drops from. Example: A party finder group finishes turn 4 and 1 standard allagan loot drops and 1 turn 4 tanking parcel. The 2 tanks dice rolls for the parcel and one of them gets it (the other normal drop is for the rest of the party to fight over normally based on agreement). The winning tank then goes to an npc and exchanges it for any loot he wants that is in the turn 4 loot table, be it the tanking gear or any other type.

Sounds too good, maybe? Maybe the tanks should have it that good.

Tanking doesn't need rewards to make people play. It needs solid mechanics, skills, gameplay, and be fun for people to play.

you're not going to sustain a stable population of tank players by throwing rewards at them

people don't like to tank because it isn't an appealing job. imagine how much whining there would be if there were 4 tank classes instead of 2 and only 2 dps classes instead of 4.

A major problem with tanking classes are there are only 2 and queue times are instant, effectively making tanks level up too fast. If everyone playing paladin and warrior can get 600k exp per hour via DF and the dps rolls make only 200-300k you will eventually run into a bottleneck. Both my paladin and warrior are 50, there's no way I'd take them into low level DF for no exp and crap rewards.
This is the state of the game currently.

I don't really need an incentive to play a tank.

Things people could do is stop spreading myths about tanking that are blatantly false, like:

Tanking is hard! It's not, there are a handful of instances that are hard to tank... incidentally, those are usually also hard on the rest of the party.

Tanking is boring! Maybe in the early levels. Midgame to endgame tanking can be quite interesting.

Tanks are always the first blamed and people are mean to them! Not in my experience, not any more that some people are mean to everybody, regardless of the their role. And good players will only help you out if you're making mistakes, not put you down.


Part of incentivizing tank play by way of game mechanics can be needlessly complex and bloat the role unnecessarily—improving the situation starts with the community here.

The reason for no tanks is simply because of the pressure. Think of any dungeon or boss fight, you can be a dps class and go in it blind and no pressure for the most part. As a tank you're required to know where to go, where to tank each enemy, which way to rotate, all the mechanics, when to switch with off tanks, how to deal with stacks, what adds to agro, which way to face in each phase etc. All the dps has to do is follow the tank and damage adds or bosses. As dps if you make a mistake no one notices, one tank mistake and everyone sees and points it out etc.

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Originally Posted by mouseno4

What those incentives would have to be to lure tanks into the DF. It did help yes, but it was far from enough, since DPS inevitably still suffered horrendously long queue times.

Something really needs to be done about the tanking situation in the DF - i dont know what, but something. I personally dont like getting smacked aside the face so i dont like melee in general, which means i wont be tanking anything anytime soon.

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That is it in nutshell. We dont avoid DF. We que and immediately get in. Tanks do their roulettes, tanks do CT, primals, even thornmarch for alt weapons...Tanks que for everything. 50% of all parties are dps and there are still so many that your que times far too long. The fact that you yourself said that you won't be tanking anytime soon is testament to the fact that ques will not change. SE can't "lure" them in because they are already queing, commencing, and finishing their dungeons.

TLDR; There is an inflation of DPS because it is easy and does not require any responsibility and that is why your que times are too long. And dps that say they will never tank are not going to help it.

It probably doesn't help that the party size is 4.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It probably doesn't help that the party size is 4.

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Dps makes up 50% of any party size

dungeons (4 man): 2/4 are dps
8 man: 4/8 are dps
CT 24 man: 12 are dps.

Doesnt matter what party size it is, 50% of all parties are dps and que times for them are still way too long because SO MANY people are dps because its easy and there is no responsibility. That's it. Tanks aren't joining your ques because they are all already qued or in dungeons. All the left over dps are just waiting in line for a tank.

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Originally Posted by randomrope

Dps makes up 50% of any party size

dungeons (4 man): 2/4 are dps
8 man: 4/8 are dps
CT 24 man: 12 are dps.

Doesnt matter what party size it is, 50% of all parties are dps and que times for them are still way too long because SO MANY people are dps because its easy and there is no responsibility. That's it. Tanks aren't joining your ques because they are all already qued or in dungeons. All the left over dps are just waiting in line for a tank.

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I meant instead of like 6 man light parties, with 4 dps per tank.

Increasing party size, or release two more tank jobs and two more healing jobs would help the issue. I don't think there necessarily -needs- to be more than twice as many DPS classes as tanks and healers just because thats what a DF requires... I'm pretty sure the general popularity of DPS classes will allow for their roles to always be filled. If anything, it would take away the extreme end on both sides (instant for tank, soulexploding long for dps) and replace it with some form of a medium.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

I'm pretty sure the general popularity of DPS classes will allow for their roles to always be filled.

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That is why the ques for dps are so long! Lets use the simplest idea so this all makes sense.

There is a server with only 6 people on it. 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 dps.

Everybody ques for a dungeon. 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps get in. That leaves 2 dps waiting around for a tank or a healer with a super long que time. BECAUSE THERE ARE TO MANY DPS

Now add everyone's magic idea of a new healer and tank class and lets try this again.

Everybody ques. 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps get in. That leaves 2 dps waiting around for a tank or a healer with a super long que time. BECAUSE THEY ARE TO LAZY TO PLAY A TANK OR HEALER.

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Originally Posted by randomrope

That is why the ques for dps are so long! Lets use the simplest idea so this all makes sense.

There is a server with only 6 people on it. 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 dps.

Everybody ques for a dungeon. 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps get in. That leaves 2 dps waiting around for a tank or a healer with a super long que time. BECAUSE THERE ARE TO MANY DPS

Now add everyone's magic idea of a new healer and tank class and lets try this again.

Everybody ques. 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps get in. That leaves 2 dps waiting around for a tank or a healer with a super long que time. BECAUSE THEY ARE TO LAZY TO PLAY A TANK OR HEALER.

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No, that leaves 2 dps waiting for a super long queue time because there aren't 2 extra people to play with.

Even if they release new tank or healer classes, it wouldn't make much difference if the player didn't want to play as a tank or healer in the first place. It still comes down to the same basic job of heal, buff pt members and tanking monsters.

If that kind of playstyle didn't appeal to them before, how will introduction of new classes that have the same basic function and responsibilites, get people who didn't play them before to do so?

Bigger incentives won't help much either. Instead, you'll get players who have tank and healer classes at 50 but who either refuse or be very reluctant to use them in end dungeons and will still prefer playing their dps class.

I think part of what keeps people from tanking is the other players.

A DPS can die and nobody bats an eye, but if its a tank or a healer then there's a full wipe coming. A GOOD group will make it through one or two such wipes without much argument. Get another and you're likely to see one or two people drop. If the group survives that, you've got maybe one more wipe before you lose the rest.

It really is on the players to a degree, not all folks are understanding or patient. The incentive shouldn't be for just the tank, but for the whole group to stick around and keep trying.

Maybe some kinda sliding scale loot system, the standard loot plus something special for "one and done" encounters, but the more you fail and keep trying the higher a chance for some other piece of loot goes. As the echo buff goes up, so to does the chance of this other reward. Its a system easily gamed, you can wipe on purpose after all, but its a start.

I will lvl a tank class up but only to help friends and FC members. Otherwise it's the behaviour and attitudes of other players that keeps me from wanting to tank. Majority of the time tanks are getting bonuses in duty roulette. I rarely see any other class getting the bonus. Giving more to a tank class isn't the answer I think, when will the bribery end?

There needs to be more healing and tanking jobs or more of an incentive for people who play those jobs at endgame to revisit content.

Once I capped Paladin/White Mage I had no reason to run low level dungeons again. Give me a reason, a reward, an Alternate Advancement Point grind, some draw to run the low levels and help reduce the queue congestion.

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Originally Posted by Linadae

I enjoy tanking...until some dps/healer thinks that they're Superman and decide to "help" by running ahead and bring back more mobs. Once is an accident, twice is stupidity, three times and I tell them "You spank it, you get to tank it." And then I sit back and watch them die a horrible death, hoping that a hefty repair bill will convince them to change their ways.

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Lin Iagree with you 100% as a healer/caster main I only ever pull for the tank the 2 ton's at skele's in wp and the one succubus in Ak, and that only happens after I ask if the tank wants me to.... so they know its coming right ^^

Well I don't think a free pony will get more tanks in duty finder will help. I am thinking having bonus philo/myth/allagan tomes would. Just allow the tank's bonus tomes break the tome cap. Though the bonus probably wouldn't be very much.

I think a lot of people are just scared to play as a tank because of the pressure you get put under. When you go into DF the party usually expects you to know exactly where to go, what to do and basically lead the party. It's much easier to go into content as a DD and just whack stuff everyone else is hitting.