"If you die twice, you're out"

The mmos community changed from lets all just do this and have fun and learn.

To the Purple, Yellow MILF alien guy. Turn it in one run. With 999999 videos and we all need to do it like animals. Its' way or the Highway. No more lets just play a mmo.

it doesnt matter because the entire party disbands after 2 attempts anyway. lol

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Originally Posted by Saziel

This amuses me in Party Finder. I'd love it if the person starting the party died twice, and followed their own rules and left the party.

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dunno if they all do, our party leader had a bad day & kicked himself from a die 3 times party. (PF: Exp titan EX farm)

Its about the only effective comprise to allow players who dont have wins the chance to join Experianced good ones & get them without being charged gil.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

So when the tank fails, you kick the DDs and heals because they die?

Looooooool

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I'm sure you thought this was clever, looking at my lodestone profile and thinking my main job was a tank.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Jokes on you I play all three roles. My main is actually a BLM and my alt a SCH. Both have the same ilevel.

When someone makes a mistake, I'll let them make it a few more times + the amount of times I make a mistake before I tell them it isn't working. Problem?

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Originally Posted by Gandora

Circle jerk complex?

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Inferiority complex?

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Originally Posted by Gandora

And to reply to your question, thanks to WoW.

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It's funny because you think this is exclusive to WoW. Maybe you weren't aware of the rampant elitism in 11...maybe because you never played it.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

You should get to the content we are talking about then you will see why there are strong attempts at QC in the party finder.

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Eh they have all the answers and all the time in the world. I say letting them find out first hand is all it will take.

Of course, most of them will never make it to this content.

It would be a awesome mechanic if had a system in place if all 8 people died single time. With at one point of a single death in the fight and then all 8 kill the mob get a extra rare bonuse. WHM would need to raise and death mode from others and teamwork.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

It's funny because you think this is exclusive to WoW. Maybe you weren't aware of the rampant elitism in 11...maybe because you never played it.

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The rampant elitism wasn't too hard to avoid in FFXI. You just needed to not join the elitist linkshells. They were pretty self-contained, and the closest exposure you'd get to those sorts of people were when they'd join exp parties to level alts or whatever, and then you'd just have to put up with their assholery untiil the session was over. There were plenty of Linkshells that were much more low-key, where no one would get into a frothy rage if you dared to show your face without a level 99 Empyrean weapon or whatever.

Such elitism can often be avoided in this game as well, so long as you watch for party finder comments like the one this thread is titled after and just avoid them. Duty Finder, unfortunately, will lump you in with them - but I'd guess that elitists likely seldom use Duty Finder anyway.

The bottom line, I guess, is that elitism isn't hard to avoid as long as you aren't concerned with constantly being on the bleeding edge in terms of equipment. As unpleasant as they are, elitists DO tend to get the job done, so the fastest way to get access to the hottest new items is to put up with their crap.

There are 2 kinds of people using the "2 deaths = kick".

1) Noobs who need to be carried.
2) People who are killing it every week but are bored to wipe for 2h every day against Titan EX.

I'm not in any of these groups, I don't create parties.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The rampant elitism wasn't too hard to avoid in FFXI. You just needed to not join the elitist linkshells. They were pretty self-contained, and the closest exposure you'd get to those sorts of people were when they'd join exp parties to level alts or whatever, and then you'd just have to put up with their assholery untiil the session was over. There were plenty of Linkshells that were much more low-key, where no one would get into a frothy rage if you dared to show your face without a level 99 Empyrean weapon or whatever.

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We seem to have different memories from 11. I remember a period of time with a lovely pink bird and something called a merit party. Or wonderful shouts in Aht Urhgan requiring ridiculous things of people for missions, assault, salvage, Nyzul, etc.

Remember that one time you joined the group without an appropriate sub job leveled?

The only reason it was more contained in 11 was because we didn't have an interface like PF. Search comments and shout were the name of the game and didn't really receive the kind of traffic PF does.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

There are 2 kinds of people using the "2 deaths = kick".

1) Noobs who need to be carried.
2) People who are killing it every week but are bored to wipe for 2h every day against Titan EX.

I'm not in any of these groups, I don't create parties.

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And this is pretty much the problem. Too few chiefs, not enough idioms. People are always free to make their own parties. Many never do.

When you run your own party, you stick your own rules in your PF search tag. You set the boundaries and conditions. It's the simplest fix to this problem you are seeing.

Seen a lot of those lately in party finder

1. "die twice you will be kicked"....leader of the party end up dying over and over again.

2. "farm party" = I want high level players with experience to carry me through the fight.

3.

Most the parties I see posting this are typically referencing 3~ deaths pre-heart phase because dying to mechanics pre-heart would suggest that you do the same post heart when they are relatively more difficult to dodge. Understandable IMO, when you have to deal with bad luck RNG and run the same thing 10+ times just to get a chance at the piece of loot. It'll come down to time efficiency, do you want to spend 30 mins- 1 hour+ per run with a few people that may fall prey to mechanics or find people that are comfortable with them for multiple smooth runs even if it means replacing people.

People who complain about PFs that add restrictions are equally silly. There is a reason many people don't down twintania and this subject highlights just that. Ex: why should people who can get past twister phase endure and party with people who don't know what a conflag is? Several other fights follow the same formula. When the person who added the restriction died tho that's always lols

I have to say, I'm about to get an allergy to those "moral elitists" who come to a thread stating the same obvious moral bullshit over and over again without actually thinking about the matter at all...

See, the thing is, you can't blindly defend immature, ignorant or straight up stupid people forever.

I also used to be extremly kind to all those people who were wiping whole party, I used to explain to them everything again and again (I still do it sometimes) and I never really kick anyone (I just ask them politely to leave - /tell - and explain why am I asking them to do so). But since I feel like I'm kind of responsible for the whole party I really don't want to waste time of all us anymore by tolerating someone who clearly didn't do his/her homework (you can tell damn quick if someone is just a bit unexperienced, or is completely beside the point).

Besides that, just don't join those parties, problem solved, no need to make a thread about this and spread hate this way.

Peace

I don't see anything wrong with great players seeking great players. I know personally if we wipe more than twice on any fight t5,ex primals,sunken temple of qarn, w/e, I start to get irritated ONLY if the group was premade and consisted of players supposedly competant. I guess you can call this the "elitist attitude" but there's nothing wrong with being "elitist". I don't want to wipe for an hour on a fight that is ridiculously easy. Everyone's skill, talent, and learning ability is different. This is human nature. Seeking people who share similarities with you is another part of human nature. No fight on this game is hard to me and a few friends I consistently play with. We 1 shot and at most 2shot everything every week. Coil done in 50 minutes. Why would I sit around and wipe for 6hours with a group of either noobs or just incompetent players? I won't. The bad players can grind it out with eachother, while the top end can 1shot everything together. Simple, everyone is happy.

If you join a FARM party for an EX primal, and you don't KNOW that you won't die from a mistake that is your fault, you've already given the party you joined the middle finger. I've been in farm groups for EX Titan that will do 4-5 kills with no one dying once. It's not because the people in those group are "OMG.... super-elite.. WTF... very WOW," it's because the EX primals are EASY fights once you have the slightest experience with a win. That's why the "two strikes" rules exists. The people that are skilled enough to reliably kill the EX primals will see that rule and join anyway because they are confident that they won't die. The people that complain about this rule are just butt-hurt because they're the ones dying every fight, and they miss out on free i90 weapons because the big mean people in the game won't carry them.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Inferiority complex?

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Tell me since you're apparently so smart, who is complexed the most? The people who blist/kick people out for two mistakes because "OMG ONE DEATH QQ NO TIME FOR THAT QQ" or the persons who are willing to offer help whatever what it cost to enjoy the content and make friends?

"We dont want to waste time" Why do you play a mmo in the 1st place then? Get out & do something more constructive/productive lol.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

It's funny because you think this is exclusive to WoW. Maybe you weren't aware of the rampant elitism in 11...maybe because you never played it.

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Well guess what, I have been playing XI for 9 years, a game where you had to be skilled & WoW (5 months) which was brainless, and introduced me to push on buttons mindlessly. This system came from WoW, along with the crappy playerbase who praise themselve out of what? Dodging 3 mechanics? lol.


Anyway carry on with the thread >.>;

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Originally Posted by WLotus

I don't see anything wrong with great players seeking great players. I know personally if we wipe more than twice on any fight t5,ex primals,sunken temple of qarn, w/e, I start to get irritated ONLY if the group was premade and consisted of players supposedly competant. I guess you can call this the "elitist attitude" but there's nothing wrong with being "elitist". I don't want to wipe for an hour on a fight that is ridiculously easy. Everyone's skill, talent, and learning ability is different. This is human nature. Seeking people who share similarities with you is another part of human nature. No fight on this game is hard to me and a few friends I consistently play with. We 1 shot and at most 2shot everything every week. Coil done in 50 minutes. Why would I sit around and wipe for 6hours with a group of either noobs or just incompetent players? I won't. The bad players can grind it out with eachother, while the top end can 1shot everything together. Simple, everyone is happy.

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Exactly my feelings. +1

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Originally Posted by Gandora

Tell me since you're apparently so smart, who is complexed the most? The people who blist/kick people out for two mistakes because "OMG ONE DEATH QQ NO TIME FOR THAT QQ" or the persons who are willing to offer help whatever what it cost to enjoy the content and make friends?

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We have two options that enable PF to distinguish between groups: new players welcome/let's learn the fight together and experienced players only/high level gear/you cause multiple wipes = boot.

I'd still say you have the complex since you do not realize there are actually two options yet choose to focus on one.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

"We dont want to waste time" Why do you play a mmo in the 1st place then? Get out & do something more constructive/productive lol.

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I have oodles of time. Please stop directing your comments at me. I am the one who joins DF Titan HM, DF primal extremes, hydra/chim, etc groups to help others. SOME people, however, actually have a more hectic real life than me and can only play so long every night. You should take their feelings into consideration.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

Well guess what, I have been playing XI for 9 years, a game where you had to be skilled & WoW (5 months) which was brainless, and introduced me to push on buttons mindlessly. This system came from WoW, along with the crappy playerbase who praise themselve out of what? Dodging 3 mechanics? lol.

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Yeah 5 months must've given you quite a bit of experience. *roll eyes* Much of the heroic content in WoW was pretty challenging. I never saw this rampant elitism in WoW in LFD or even in LFR. The elitism was saved for PVP, of course. :D

I find it funny that you think 11 required skill.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

"We dont want to waste time" Why do you play a mmo in the 1st place then? Get out & do something more constructive/productive lol.

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Why don't you create PF 24/7 (let's say Titan XM) to give the noobs a chance to kill it ? Again, spending 2 hours every day in wipes against Titan XM when you already killed it 10 times isn't funny when you NEVER die first. Again, seeing the same newbie ejected for the 10th times, dying from the same WOL, running everywhere during bombs, etc is frustrating when you avoided every single landslide/WOL/bomb during the last 2 hours.

I sometimes join a PF for Titan HM. I don't care to wipe, I know when I join that I will probably wipe. I only leave when the group disbands, I don't give advices if they don't ask for and I jerk "OLOL NOOBS I R KILL XM MODE OLOL". But when I join a farming group, I expect FARMING, not TRAINING.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

when I join a farming group, I expect FARMING, not TRAINING.

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This is why 2-death-kick rule even exists. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to train people or not wanting to deal with other players laggy connection and if people who couldn't farm didn't join farm parties to get carried or expected others to just deal with their lag this filter wouldn't exist.

Lol... usually the people who start parties like this are good enough... Although I've seen one who died like 3 times, 2 times before heart and once after, he was just dps (mnk) so it wasn't much of a big deal to the party since we can just revive him and move on. When we weren't able to destroy the south bomb on super bombs he said, "Sorry :3". I thought it was pretty hilarious.

i see no problem with this at all. sure, there is probably the occasional baddie out there that makes a PT like this hoping for a carry but im sure most are just looking to scare away inexperienced or incompetent players. i put countless hours into learning Titan x, when i join a group labeled "farm" i expect to do just that. and i expect the people i join with to have put at least as much effort as i have learning the fight or be good enough that they can adapt quickly and learn from their mistakes.

some of the fights in this game are extremely unforgiving, the slightest mistake from one person, can end in a wipe and reset. is it really that out of line to expect people who join an "experienced" party to actually be experienced? and if you arent, are we not justified in holding you accountable for wasting the groups time and booting you?

i dont think the people making these groups are "elitist" assholes. they just want to play with folks that put in the same amount of effort as they did. its the people that think they are special snowflakes and that some how the rules dont apply to them or that the rest of the group should just deal with their ineptitude that are ruining this game.

put in the effort, learn the fight, and stop wasting peoples time

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Originally Posted by Hitome

We have two options that enable PF to distinguish between groups: new players welcome/let's learn the fight together and experienced players only/high level gear/you cause multiple wipes = boot.

I'd still say you have the complex since you do not realize there are actually two options yet choose to focus on one.

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This give a valuable reason to show animosity toward each others, is that what you imply? What you call complex I call patience.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

I have oodles of time. Please stop directing your comments at me. I am the one who joins DF Titan HM, DF primal extremes, hydra/chim, etc groups to help others. SOME people, however, actually have a more hectic real life than me and can only play so long every night. You should take their feelings into consideration.

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I quoted you partialy because of the "We don't want to waste time." part, don't think i'm targeting you personaly but more the people doing it.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Yeah 5 months must've given you quite a bit of experience. *roll eyes* Much of the heroic content in WoW was pretty challenging. I never saw this rampant elitism in WoW in LFD or even in LFR. The elitism was saved for PVP, of course. :D

I find it funny that you think 11 required skill.

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I started both at the same time (or nearly) and was more attracted to XI due to its system, which involve more skills then WoW & definately more than XIV.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

Why don't you create PF 24/7 (let's say Titan XM) to give the noobs a chance to kill it ?

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I did it for Garuda X, i'll do it for titan X without any problem because anyone have to start somewhere.

You see the problem with people like you is that they label someone else as "noob" & would rather unconsciously disrespect them for the sake of misplaced self pride. But hey guess what, flash news! In that load of people you below are players that could outparse you easily or outdo you on tank/healer once they feel comfortable with the fight.

But i'll give you two the credit, I guess i'm the one in the wrong, because I never look down at other players and I am rather willing to help them & make new friends. I'm obviously complexed.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

You see the problem with people like you is that they label someone else as "noob" & would rather unconsciously disrespect them for the sake of misplaced self pride. But hey guess what, flash news! In that load of people you below are players that could outparse you easily or outdo you on tank/healer once they feel comfortable with the fight.

But i'll give you two the credit, I guess i'm the one in the wrong, because I never look down at other players and I am rather willing to help them & make new friends. I'm obviously complexed.

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So the people that form a group asking for experienced people are disrespectful to the ones that are not experienced ?

It's the complete opposite, it's the unexperienced players that are being disrespectful by joining party and making other people wipe because they are lazy and don't want to create or join a training party and wants to be carried.

It depends on if there party leader wants a kill group, a progression group or a farm group. I go for farm groups so in order to have a legit farming group, everyone must have the fight mastered all the way through. Most people don't get a chance to master the fight the whole way through because the lack of pugs, FC's or friends that can do it. So it works both ways. If you know you might die more then once then you should search for a progression group. If you now you can't go the whole fight without dying at all then you should avoid farming groups. If you know you haven't beaten the boss before or prone to dying then avoid the kill groups. Progression groups are what should appear 90% of the time beczuse 90% of the community seems to still be learning and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. What;'s wrong is people's inability to admit they're still learning by fear of not getting in a good group.

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Originally Posted by lololink

these players are screwing things up for other people and we should be nice to them ?

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Oh please get out of your bubble, I saw so many said "experienced" players screw things up on a level of stupidity you could never imagine. Funnily enough they were preaching like you and they had that kind of "One fail = kick" behavior.

So what now? Shall we push the limit of human stupidity with more half assed PF status for these "wannabehardcoreOMGelitists"?

And to answer your question: Yes you should be nice to them, simply because you've been in their position before and you were once the burden of 7 other players.

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Originally Posted by scarletfoxxy

What;'s wrong is people's inability to admit they're still learning by fear of not getting in a good group.

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I totaly agree with you, but thanks to our lovely and friendly community.

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Originally Posted by Saziel

This amuses me in Party Finder. I'd love it if the person starting the party died twice, and followed their own rules and left the party.

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I've only heard of a party leader doing this once. As in, after he died the appropriate amount of times, he apologized to the group and left -- following his own rules. I was impressed when I heard this story.

Anyway, I generally don't join groups with a "die x times and you are kicked" comment... not because I mess up a lot (because I don't), but because I haven't really ever seen a group with that comment be successful. A lot of the time (not always), the party leader is either really bad at NOT dying, or they are a mediocre player despite being able to dodge.

bottom line is, if you dont like the parameters the pt leader sets in the PF then dont join that party.

You just ignore these parties and make your own. That's all.

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Originally Posted by alhandra

bottom line is, if you dont like the parameters the pt leader sets in the PF then dont join that party.

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^
Why is this so hard for people? Who cares? Don't join and make your own parties.

As much as people are trying to paint the 3 strikes groups as elitist, I join them all the time, and I find most all of them to involve kind people just looking to get something done they have done many a times, and are capable of doing. An overwhelming majority of the time, the person who actually gets to 3 strikes knows they are having an issue, whether it be internet connection or other, and they themselves leave gracefully knowing what they joined and not wanting to hold 7 other people back. I have seen leaders leave because of their own rule under the same circumstances, and never have I seen one stay through 3 strikes, or try to be carried.

I have never been kicked from a party. My worse case was an Ifrit EX on a Monday where I was literally getting 2 second freeze lag as a DD, and therefore not being able to get out of plumes and dieing (couldn't run ahead like Titan EX or I'd kill the group). This wasn't even a three strikes group, but on the third time I apologized and said it'd be my last go (group was very competent) since I was unable to fix my issue. We actually ended up beating it even though I died 4-5 times, and I got pretty carried by those awesome healers. I since have not died once to Ifrit EX eruptions if it means anything, but really, have the decency to bow out if you are in over your head. I have 8 primal weapons, I am not there to "relearn" the fight and wipe for hours. I'll do that for my friends and FC learning groups, but not my farming/clear groups.

*edit* Also who cares if people think you are bad and /blist you? People need to stop getting so butt hurt over nothing. I'm sure those Ifrit EX guys thought I was terrible, even though I can do that fight with my eyes closed on a normal day. Stuff/internet/bad days happen, just recognize it and don't expect to be carried. I actually would have rather left that group then got the win through them, because I literally got carried when I know I pull my own weight.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06

I think i speak on behalf of all players when i say, instead of an apology, we would be more grateful if you didn't shout things like that anymore.

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I second this. It is very elitist and discouraging. I blame all the people who came over from other MMO's. 1.0 we had elitist but they were a small population on any server. Now everyone thinks they are entitled to everything and set elitist party finder comments and have dick rules.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06

I think i speak on behalf of all players when i say, instead of an apology, we would be more grateful if you didn't shout things like that anymore.

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This! So much this!!

One of things I enjoyed about this MMO when I first joined it was the lovely community. It's hard to say the same these days as there are so many elitists and just general assholes around. :(

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Originally Posted by Xakery

I second this. It is very elitist and discouraging. I blame all the people who came over from other MMO's. 1.0 we had elitist but they were a small population on any server. Now everyone thinks they are entitled to everything and set elitist party finder comments and have dick rules.

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In 1.0, the majority of players had lag issues because we all connected to the same datacenter no matter where you were. People were more forgiving of lag then, mostly because a lot of us were lagging. Beating Ifrit Extreme in 1.0 was one of the most frustrating experiences for me as a player with a not-so-great ISP and living on the East Coast of the US. :S

Well if the masses did not fail so utterly, people would not be labeling their PF groups with such things.

I join PF groups out of pure boredom sometimes, go and help out etc. I can say roughly 7/10 times, someone dies on the first plumes because they just don't get stacking and moving. Someone else leaves out of frustration and the group falls apart. Back to Limsa and scouring the PF...

Every PF grp these days has, "exp only" or "fail and kick" etc. People are just sick of dying because of others mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Terius

Every PF grp these days has, "exp only" or "fail and kick" etc. People are just sick of dying because of others mistakes.

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They are not all exp only or fail and kick some are for training too, i see a lot of them, not enough considering the many people that still don't master these fight, but i think it's the same as for the tank jobs, only few people like to lead a group and so they only join parties instead of creating one that they like.

PF groups can impose whatever rules they want, I don't care. I can see what they want and can decide "hm, no, don't feel like dealing with jerks." I'll never understand why those players don't make a LS dedicated to that type of player, would make getting groups a lot faster and with more reliable players.

If they take it into DF, if I'm feeling particularly sick of it I'll just not heal them and watch them die.

Not for nothing, but whatever happened to courtesy of the good ol' days...like back in my mother-in-law's day...she's in her 80's...I think ANY community could benefit from compassion and understanding.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

This is why 2-death-kick rule even exists. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to train people or not wanting to deal with other players laggy connection and if people who couldn't farm didn't join farm parties to get carried or expected others to just deal with their lag this filter wouldn't exist.

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How do you get your weekly carries when people use said filter?

Whilst some of the example parties are a little... extreme, I can understand why they do this. I partied with pugs for Titan Ex many many times over the last few months trying to get a kill. Every single time I would ALWAYS get at least one person new to the fight. A new person generally means you WILL NOT get a kill.

I eventually started making a point of only inviting people who had some experience with the fight. Every fight ALWAYS had one player with 'lag' that was getting them killed over and over. I put up with this for 3 weeks...

Needless to say after months of helping first timers and giving people some leniency for 'lag' I eventually just wanted to kill the damn thing and the only way to do that was to explicitly ban anyone from joining who would get in the way of a kill.

This isn't about impatience or elitism. I've been ridiculously patient over the last few months... and I had nothing at all to show for it. Excluding those who would hold the party back is the ONLY way to get a kill on Titan Ex and after months of attempts I got it last night. These strict parties in the PF exist not to get the leader a carry but to deter anyone from joining that was looking for a carry. Eventually people just want to get stuff done and you can't blame them for that.

Okay I get it. How would you explain to rage quitters who do duty finder and do not get a win? I mean honestly, I usually do duty finder parties with the expectation that things will go wrong and a win is not going to happen. However, there are some hot heads that really get fired up cause of a fail on the first or second attempt.

Guess I'm just optimistic. I look at any try as progress and learning.

I would imagine even the most patient and understanding people would get tired and angry after being kicked in the crotch numerous times.

I have been kicked for many many years dating back to Ultima Online and Everquest. My temper flares a lot faster these days.