Dragoons - I don't see too many of them in the high end content

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I've had to worry about throwing extra heals at the DRG or MNK way more than any of the range DPS.

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It's almost like nearly every encounter in the game is designed in a way that'll lead to this sort of thing. WEIRD.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

This is also very true.

When I'm not playing with people I know (with a few exceptions where melee have an advantage, like Titan), you'll almost always see me running as a WAR or WHM (and recently BLM) instead of DRG. I know other DRG who do this too.

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i play my monk and i got a dragon but im finishing BLM to do the same thing lol.....

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

It's almost like nearly every encounter in the game is designed in a way that'll lead to this sort of thing. WEIRD.

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Is it the games fault a lot of Dragoons and Monks can't dodge tail and side swipes?

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Is it the games fault a lot of Dragoons and Monks can't dodge tail and side swipes?

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Who's blaming here? Like, you made a declarative statement out of the most obvious game mechanic. Do you watch football and wonder aloud why the running backs get hit more than the kickers? Comes with the territory, man.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Is it the games fault a lot of Dragoons and Monks can't dodge tail and side swipes?

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So, you're able to dodge all AoEs 100%, use all your CDs perfectly, never have a death that's your fault and make sure the enemies you're tanking are always in the perfect position so that they post the absolute least amount of threat to everyone in your party?

Yeah...I don't think so

They didn't buff melee DPS for S&Gs, folks. They did it because the risk playing the job is higher. That DPS comes with a price.

If your Monk or Dragoon is a liability, that's one thing. But if you're bellyaching because you had to throw him/her a benediction it's you playing the wrong job, not them.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Is it the games fault a lot of Dragoons and Monks can't dodge tail and side swipes?

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To a certain degree I'll have to say yes. Why do you see more DRGs and MNKs being hit by tail and side swipes while magically each and every ranged DD doesn't get hit at all? It's because those tail and side swipes only happen in melee range. If the ranged DDs had to dodge the same thing, they'd be making the same mistakes. It's not like ranged DDs are better players because they play ranged.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

It's not like ranged DDs are better players because they play ranged.

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I love tanking or healing Garuda EX in 4 overgeared-ranged groups who can't pass the first DPS check

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

Who's blaming here? Like, you made a declarative statement out of the most obvious game mechanic. Do you watch football and wonder aloud why the running backs get hit more than the kickers? Comes with the territory, man.

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Melee jobs eating avoidable damage is a game mechanic? Or are you just implying that it's ok when they do because they have more to avoid? Either way, my point still stands. In my experience, melee DPS need more care due to the sheer amount that can't seem to dodge avoidable mechanics.

That's not to say that there aren't a lot of melee that are great at avoidance, so, stop getting offended if you are one of the good ones.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Melee jobs eating avoidable damage is a game mechanic? Or are you just implying that it's ok when they do because they have more to avoid? Either way, my point still stands. In my experience, melee DPS need more care due to the sheer amount that can't seem to dodge avoidable mechanics.

That's not to say that there aren't a lot of melee that are great at avoidance, so, stop getting offended if you are one of the good ones.

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One of the good ones... LMAO. Boy, this thread turned into allegory fast.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

One of the good ones... LMAO. Boy, this thread turned into allegory fast.

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Ok, I'm imagining all of the Melee DPS I pug with that I have to raise several times when healing Caduceus. Bad melee don't exist at all in this game and if any do get hit with swipes, it's the games fault for being too harsh on them.

Why do I get the feeling this guy has yet to do any serious content as a melee?

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Why do I get the feeling this guy has yet to do any serious content as a melee?

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I gave up on my Dragoon (my starter class) after I got my relic due to people not wanting to bring them to certain fights at the time. He's currently sitting at ilvl 73, I believe.

Either way, I'm guessing your point is that I just don't realize how bad melee DPS have it?

At no point have I made that case. All I'm saying is the notion that somehow RDPS are better at dodging is just a lie people tell themselves. And I do find it remarkable how these conversations omit any agency for tanks. I've eaten hood swings because a tank pivoted for reasons unbeknownst to me. I've had Wicked Wheels hit me because I wasn't left any space to evade. It's not the cut and dry 'melees are bad' narrative that gets perpetuated in this game.

It really is a tango sometimes and mercifully I do most content with the same few tanks. We make corrections and we move on and it rules.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Either way, I'm guessing your point is that I just don't realize how bad melee DPS have it?

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No...more that you're likely one of the bad ones

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

All I'm saying is the notion that somehow RDPS are better at dodging is just a lie people tell themselves.

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One reason why I love Titan (HM and EX)...ranged have to actually dodge stuff. And so many fail...

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

And I do find it remarkable how these conversations omit any agency for tanks. I've eaten hood swings because a tank pivoted for reasons unbeknownst to me. I've had Wicked Wheels hit me because I wasn't left any space to evade. It's not the cut and dry 'melees are bad' narrative that gets perpetuated in this game.

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Tanks are never to blame for anything...because its always a blessing that a tank decides to come and help the group, everyone needs to do what they want and if someone dies its their fault, never the tank's

/sarcasm

There's a reason I don't like to DRG certain content with unknown tanks, especially PLD. The above mentality is so strong with many tanks its just frustrating to try to get them to actually realize that they have a responsibility to keep melee safe...but no, its too much "work"...

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

It's not the cut and dry 'melees are bad' narrative that gets perpetuated in this game.

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That wouldn't even be a thing if not for so many melee characters being bad. I've had groups were the Dragoon/Monk didn't really get hit at all and I've had groups were the Dragoon/Monk had to be raised a couple times during the fight due to being hit by swipes. Was it the tanks fault? Who knows, but the point is, in my experience, I run into more melee's like the latter than the former. Which is apparently most people's experience as that's how these sorts of stigmas start in the first place.

You can talk down to me all you want, but the fact is, there wouldn't be such a stigma if there wasn't truth to it.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

No...more that you're likely one of the bad ones

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Or, more likely, you are one of the bad one. Which is why your feelings seem to be so hurt by my generalizing.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Was it the tanks fault? Who knows,

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This makes a world of difference. If the tank is constantly turning enemies so that melee have a harder time or turn AoEs/Cleaves into melee...guess what? Its the tank's fault...just because you're not paying attention and can't tell what is going on doesn't mean everything is always the melee's fault

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Or, more likely, you are one of the bad one. Which is why your feelings seem to be so hurt by my generalizing.

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Aw...its so great that you care. I must be an absolutely terrible DRG when I avoid everything in Titan EX

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Aw...its so great that you care. I must be an absolutely terrible DRG when I avoid everything in Titan EX

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Then perhaps you should stop acting so hurt by my comments? Or are you saying that there aren't a lot of bad melee DPS in this game? Am I just making stuff up?

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Am I just making stuff up?

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You are.

You're also like all the other "all melee are bad always" people...I'm sure if you actually tried to be a melee you'd fail like the majority. But you won't, its just *so* much easier to sit back and blame the melee regardless of whether its their fault or not

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Originally Posted by PArcher

You are.

You're also like all the other "all melee are bad always" people...I'm sure if you actually tried to be a melee you'd fail like the majority. But you won't, its just *so* much easier to sit back and blame the melee regardless of whether its their fault or not

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So, you admit the majority fail? That's harsh. I wouldn't have said majority. I just would have said "a lot" or "quit a few".

Also, is this how you always argue a point? Just make assumptions about people based off nothing at all? Where and when did I say "all melee are bad always"?

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Or, more likely, you are one of the bad one. Which is why your feelings seem to be so hurt by my generalizing.

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This is textbook concern trolling right here. If you make sweeping inaccurate generalizations about a swath of people they're well within their rights to take issue with it. It's the proper response, in fact.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

This is textbook concern trolling right here. If you make sweeping inaccurate generalizations about a swath of people they're well within their rights to take issue with it. It's the proper response, in fact.

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My generalization isn't inaccurate. Way too many people playing melee DPS poorly is the reason you get "Range only" groups in the first place. All I said is that my experience trying to heal most melee DPS has been a poor one (most doesn't mean all). So, personally, I can see why people form those "range only" groups. If the proper response to my saying that is to start making stuff up, like you and parcher have (calling me a troll and saying that I said "all melee are bad always"), go for it I guess.

Generalizations are always inaccurate. It's kind of how they work.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

There's a reason I don't like to DRG certain content with unknown tanks, especially PLD. The above mentality is so strong with many tanks its just frustrating to try to get them to actually realize that they have a responsibility to keep melee safe...but no, its too much "work"...

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i agree with this sometime tank position mobs on akward ways.... once on a T1 a tank positioned the snake on a corner so i only had flank aviliable going behind was too narrow then a green pool spawned on that only flank location so what did i do... just went back and /..dance till the tank realized what he was doing

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Originally Posted by PArcher

You are.

You're also like all the other "all melee are bad always" people...I'm sure if you actually tried to be a melee you'd fail like the majority. But you won't, its just *so* much easier to sit back and blame the melee regardless of whether its their fault or not

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Playing a melee class is not hard. It's actually a pretty big snooze. I'm sorry that you seem to think it seems difficult (to you).

When I'm healing, I do have to give the melee more attention. But they also have tools that they can use that counteracts this. For instance, if I'm on my MNK and get hit by something, I can just use second wind instantly and make up for that mistake. On my BLM, I can spam physick on myself only to have a healer cure 1/physick me a second later back to full health (meaning my physick didn't help at all). Same with bloodbath, mantra, etc.

Garuda is the only fight where I have to give more attention to the melee due to whicked. Even then, it's not like I'm hard pressed for aetherflow stacks/MP and have no problem lustrating a melee that gets whicked wheeled. In fact, most of the time I'll just stoneskin + adlo one right before whicked goes off.

But there are plenty of lazy healers out there who do not want to be bothered to do this type of thing hence why you have bias towards range on Garuda.

BTW melee on Titan is the 'EASY' way to do it.

I'm surprised there aren't any 'melee only' Titans. Or maybe that's because of an unfair stigma towards melee being less valuable/more dangerous.

Melee (DRG in particular have high value in T5, T4, and T1 especially) there ought not to be a stigma that they are bad but that feeling goes beyond FFXIV, really.