Lol @ Melee vs Leviathan

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Originally Posted by CHunterX

I know you're being intentionally ignorant, but the entire Impulse Drive combo line simply will not work without a back to attack, meaning a straight 10% damage loss to the DRG (and any BRDs) and the loss of a 500 potency attack.

If you honestly think making two attacks 100 potency for an entire encounter is anywhere in the realm of "it's still usable guys!" then you must be trolling.

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Demon Wall can't be attacked from behind either can it?
Even assuming that no rear attacks will be possible at Levi, you still have flank attacks.
Since we don't know yet if the head will over over the edge of the platform so you CAN get rear attacks in or if you'll be able to attack Levi's tail instead or basically anything, it's a little early to do more than be concerned... Complaints are for when you have more facts.

Edit:
If both tail and head is attackable and tail provides the rear/flank attack positions... wouldn't that be the sort of new mechanic in boss fight that people have been crying for?

He looks amazeballs.

Well, this is super secret news but Carpenters will be able to craft rafts so that melee can float around and attack from behind... only problem is they keep floating back to Limsa after 2 attacks. (bad joke...)

And Demon Wall and Caduceus are terrible examples. Any melee dps that has done that fight more than once can time tail whip and maneuver around it and get combos off. Demon Wall was just a DPS check.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXt28Q9o2i4

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Leviathan used Hydro Pump!
It was not very effective.
Warrior is soaked wet.

I'm just dissapointed it's not a boat... Maybe the platform is where the Sahagin sacrifice people to Leviathan or something...

I wouldn't worry about this too much until we actually know what the fight entails. It seems like very few fight mechanics are finalized yet, and they are just showing the general arena and some special moves Leviathan 'might' have. All we see is him flop across the screen and attack the tank head-on from the edge. I'm sure there's much, much more. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up fighting a LOT of adds on the ship. It's a super large arena.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

I wouldn't worry about this too much until we actually know what the fight entails.

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This.
I'm not too worried just yet.

Maybe it would be like the rune factory boss (Aquaticus),
he just circles around and does random attacks, and then comes back into the arena for a fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR6Og_2nhZ0

Well sure looks similar.

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Also, Demon Wall says hi.

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Demon Wall can't be attacked from behind either can it?

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Demon Wall is just an easy mid-boss from a lvl 50 dungeon with low HP.
Ex Leviathan will probably be the hardest boss sans some new Coil bosses.

Its still to early to tell whats going to happen, but comparing DW with Leviathan is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Yet, after all that stuff, they're still able to do damage! Huzzah, Eorzea is saved!

To the bolded part:

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/images/2/2d/Caduceus.png

You would have to halt your DPS to wait for his rear attack to go off if you planned on doing it every time. It's more beneficial to just spam from the side where it's safe.

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If you do that, your bad. A good melee knows how to manage cad... its so easy.... its just like Anantaboga.

Hey guys, let's give melee all these positional only attacks and have buffs/debuffs that if they drop off, they do terrible damage. Oh let's also make all the fights require lots of movement from melee. Wait, another great idea. Let's make it so you have to attack from the front only and can never use any positional attacks. Brilliant!

It really does feel like the devs who design the fights never talk to the devs who design the classes and that neither group plays the game. It really is unfortunate that melee classes are a liability on a number of fights and in the few fights where they should "shine", a ranged can do nearly as much DPS so why bother?

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Originally Posted by Dedayius

Hey guys, let's give melee all these positional only attacks and have buffs/debuffs that if they drop off, they do terrible damage. Oh let's also make all the fights require lots of movement from melee. Wait, another great idea. Let's make it so you have to attack from the front only and can never use any positional attacks. Brilliant!

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You say this, but all I am reading is "Let's give melee something to do to make sure their output is maximised and add some obstacles for them to overcome. It would be completely boring to turn these classes into one macro punching machines."

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/attac...cepted-guy.jpg

I love it, bring it on!

A melee dps is an absolute asset to any group and not a liability, it's not SE's fault that people are terrible at the game.

It's alright, you have enough time to get another job to 50 and gear it.

Then, when you feel confident and you're overgearing content, get back to your melee.

See, it's easy.

Just in!

Leviathan will occasionally put up a shield that make him immune to ranged attacks and magic! Only way to dispel is to make players dodge his other moves.

Anything said is speculation at this point.. but yes, not being able to back attack is a +10% (and probably more) damage loss to DRGs and BRDs.. and for the person mentioning Caduceus.. if you know what you're doing you can easily back attack, it's called *move out of the way*.. even on BRD I'll intentionally bait the tail swipes after split when we only have 1 melee.

Just hope SE tests the mechanics a bit better for Leviathan.. Garuda and Ifrit Ex both suck a bit for melee (such that most go omgrangedezmode), and if there is anything that is perceived by the community to limit the ability of melee on Leviathan, you can bet the community will react in the same way as they have for the other two.. though they could always do what they did with all the new 2.1 content.. forced stacking/damage type rotation/etc mechanisms to force you to take 2 tanks to fights that don't really need 2 tanks.. Turn 4 already did similar with the knights having Reflect.

They could just make positional combos be able to be progressed regardless of position throughout that fight. Otherwise that's 3 skills I won't be using on my drg, way oversimplifies my rotation.

Or maybe the entire hitbox is on the platform, and though visually his back is in the water we'll be considered 'behind' leviathain by being under his belly.

I'm greatly amuzed by some reactions here that are based on...well nothing except a video that doesn't show anything in particular. For all we know, we'll just be attacking his head the entire time. But his head will poke out far enough for people to attack the back of his head.

And at the entire caudecus thing. As a main tank, I'm expecting, wishing and hoping that melee actually attack his back as much as possible. Every tail swipe means one turn where I as tank don't lose damage. Also it's really not that hard to hit his back and move away. He doesn't even spam tail swipe all the time. Otherwise us tanks would have an easy time tanking Caudecus.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

A melee dps is an absolute asset to any group and not a liability, it's not SE's fault that people are terrible at the game.

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Lol, no. Melee is bad for every single fight in the game. The best Monk in the world is not > Foe Requiem + Battle Voice on a mediocre Bard.

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Originally Posted by omniwaink

Lol, no. Melee is bad for every single fight in the game. The best Monk in the world is not > Foe Requiem + Battle Voice on a mediocre Bard.

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So what you're saying is, further nerf BRD and BLM?

I remember a time when underwater fights were a real thing in FF.

I'd love to see something that required that much effort to develop in XIV too. X's underwater boss was great.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So what you're saying is, further nerf BRD and BLM?

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Naw, he's saying "Please argue with me?"

"OMFG I hate variety!"

Panicing over a teaser video is just crazy. Nobody knows how the fight will work.

As a Monk, this is all I need to say:

http://litchicblog.files.wordpress.c...accepted-l.png

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Originally Posted by Swishytail

As a Monk, this is all I need to say:

http://litchicblog.files.wordpress.c...accepted-l.png

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Agreed! (once we detect a partyfinder group that allows melee classes)

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Originally Posted by Deifact

I'm just dissapointed it's not a boat... Maybe the platform is where the Sahagin sacrifice people to Leviathan or something...

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Actually, it is a boat, a catamaran to be exact. There's pictures of it without the battle floating around. Looks like they cut the top decks off two of the 'standard' ships and bolted a platform on top.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So what you're saying is, further nerf BRD and BLM?

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I'm saying SE doesn't care about melee. Every adjustment they have made is just band-aid fixes (flat damage increases without fixing issues of GL stacks, position requirements, forcing melee into PVP queues because 2 melee vs 2 ranged is a loss). In 2.1 they said they would design encounters with melee in mind, yet we have Wicked Whirl on Garuda that has no red zone/cast time. We have bomb formations on Titan that literally force them off of him, as well as issues of melee dropping plumes in flank positions when everyone needs to stack. Then there's Ifrit, where melee make the fight significantly more complicated/problematic because of Searing Wind preventing them from attacking nails, on top of not being able to attack Ifrit during eruptions.

Melee needs a design overhaul, or SE needs to seriously stop boning them with end-game design.

Demon Wall is a trivial and irrelevant encounter.


If Levi is unattackable by rear positionals for most or all of the fight, then DRGs will lose like ~14% of their DPS with an additional loss of BRD DPS by ~7.5% and SE will look very stupid.

However, a brief video is /shrug. IDGAF until we see a meaningful stretch of the encounter (or the whole thing).

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Demon Wall is a trivial and irrelevant encounter.


If Levi is unattackable by rear positionals for most or all of the fight, then DRGs will lose like ~14% of their DPS with an additional loss of BRD DPS by ~7.5% and SE will look very stupid.

However, a brief video is /shrug. IDGAF until we see a meaningful stretch of the encounter (or the whole thing).

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This. For all we know Leviathan could trap ranged in a bubble that suffocates and immobilizing them requiring melee to break them out. Watery grave or something... Not enough known yet to pass judgement.

Why is everyone all "OMG NO I HATES THE SE" if their job isn't the completely perfect for a fight? Do you have to always be top DPS? Will your epeen fall off if you can't top the hate list? I am sure a team of ranged and melee will be able to take down Leviathan and have fun doing it!

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

Why is everyone all "OMG NO I HATES THE SE" if their job isn't the completely perfect for a fight? Do you have to always be top DPS? Will your epeen fall off if you can't top the hate list? I am sure a team of ranged and melee will be able to take down Leviathan and have fun doing it!

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It's not about being top dps. Outside of static groups, it's about exclusion of melee (or a token melee) because they present more of a possible liability to the group than bringing another ranged damage dealer. Again there is nothing to go by with Leviathan yet but if (and I do mean if) he can't be flanked or attacked from the rear, melee damage suffers. The overall community will not want to take them. This is what the thread originator is afraid of happening.

all Im saying SE better shape up cause april is around the corner!

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/images/2/2d/Caduceus.png


You would have to halt your DPS to wait for his rear attack to go off if you planned on doing it every time. It's more beneficial to just spam from the side where it's safe.

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...and then the tank dies because no one chose to bait the tail swipe, right.

i seriously hope that they aren't going to go demon wall route with this. impulse drive is a real pain in the ass with fights like that (because i lose the effects of an entire damned combo).

It's possible and hopefully probable they'll have the actual hitbox further out into the platform and you'll still be able to do rear attacks easily. Or they won't and when the fight is released we'll spend about a week or so calling the battle system devs a bunch of baddies before we go back to complaining about memorizing another fight or something.

I don't know why people think Demon Wall isn't a good example. Sure it's cake now that we're all overgeared, but when it was new everyone said it was a DPS check. So, having reduced DPS due to the layout probably did give some early DRGs and MNKs some problems. But even if nobody ever had a problem with it, it still shows SE is willing to put encounters in where positional attacks are unavailable. We all hope that they know better for this fight and that he'll poke his head in far enough or plop his tail down so we can poke that, but some of us still have a tendency to always expect the worst from SE.

Time to roll black mage!

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I don't know why people think Demon Wall isn't a good example. Sure it's cake now that we're all overgeared, but when it was new everyone said it was a DPS check. So, having reduced DPS due to the layout probably did give some early DRGs and MNKs some problems. But even if nobody ever had a problem with it, it still shows SE is willing to put encounters in where positional attacks are unavailable. We all hope that they know better for this fight and that he'll poke his head in far enough or plop his tail down so we can poke that, but some of us still have a tendency to always expect the worst from SE.

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As a melee who waded through the 'LFM AK brd, blm, smn only' groups when people were first hitting endgame content I think demon wall is a perfect example of why preventing positional attacks on bosses is blown out of proportion in a gaming community. When the fight is a primal with the potential to have HM and EX versions I think this mentality will be exponentially multiplied. Granted many won't care, but many will.


IMO it's a valid concern, one I hope SE will prevent by having the hitbox entirely in the arena and his underbelly will count as ' behind ' even though graphically the tail is in the water.

I'll bet it all that Leviathans head with have the target ring around it and melee who get behind the ring (facing the tank) will be on Leviathans rear.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'm more confused by the claim of knowing how it works from a 26 second video.

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true that... obviously it'll be a solo only fight too >.>

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Yet, after all that stuff, they're still able to do damage! Huzzah, Eorzea is saved!

To the bolded part:

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/images/2/2d/Caduceus.png

You would have to halt your DPS to wait for his rear attack to go off if you planned on doing it every time. It's more beneficial to just spam from the side where it's safe.

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The magical thing about Tail Whip is that you trigger it by moving behind, attack, and move back out of the way all in one beautiful motion. Tail Whip is a non-issue. More accurate would be Demon Wall, where DRG can't get Disembowel bonus at all and suffers a 16% damage reduction in addition to closing time and Repel position needs.

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Originally Posted by Felis

DPS loss? maybe
Major? I doubt it. There are still side attacks

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About ~6% DPS loss due to dropping rear attacks altogether. You lose Bootshine crit, 40 potency on Demolish, and 40 potency on True Strike. As above, DRG gets clobbered by comparison, losing 440 potency per 24-GCD rotation (replace CT with FT combos) as well as the 10% debuff.