Patch 2.2: Let's Copy the Worst Practice of MMOs From the Last 10 Years...

They tied (heh) important plot revelations in Coil, and everyone has the same right to see such content. The drops are part of it.

There'll be better gear to get anyway - and since the point is "the loot", not all of them are BiS, so what's with that nonsense? No one is losing anything, and no one but yourself should care about your personal achievements. Stop trying to justify hindering the gameplay of other people.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Snip.

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Actually, I haven\\'t missed the mark at all. You\\'re so enveloped into your own concerns that you may or may not have missed the multiple complaints through reddit and these forums. I was simply generalizing the thoughts of many ragers.
To go as far as to knock on my reading comprehension as quick as you did makes me convinced that you\\'re very angry at the moment D:

Anyway, I agree and disagree at this. This Final Fantasy does indeed have story. Yes it pushed very quickly to get to the end game content, but it is there. As for the overall progression status: they will never make everyone happy. Very few people now want sideways progression. They\\'ve been babied by WoW and other mmos in the past. They want everything, and they want it now. And not to mention this game was stated from the start to be casual friendly. That mean the first couple months of new content is for us trail blazers. While the older content can be finally tackled by those whom haven\\'t the time/gear/skill to do it normally. Yes we will feel like all the accomplishments we\\'ve gained will be lost, but there will be new ones to get. Give them a chance. Game hasn\\'t even been out for a year.

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Originally Posted by Worm

It's a little hard to listen to you rag on someone's lack of knowledge when you didn't see this coming. I mean would you have even been happy if they didn't nerf the dungeon but put it in the duty finder? I mean really, what made you think this game suddenly was going to hark back to a MMO style which is more than a decade old?

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Well, her comment was meant as a jab against something she clearly has no experience with, so of course I'm going to be lecturing a bit with my post.

Also, in response to Cotti, I totally agree that people should have access to the main story. However, that has already been accomplished by making the main story something people can almost solo. Any content in an MMORPG is going to have story behind it because it's an RPG. If they made all the content so accessible that everyone can everything in the game, they could never implement anything that has a high difficulty to it. The people who like the challenge of raiding want to see a story just as much as the people who play the game more infrequently. To solve the problem, the content would need to have all its story elements stripped from it, which would remove a lot of the reason for doing it in the first place.

The method they are choosing for progression attempts to address that issue, but also strips away something important from the people who originally did the content pre-nerf. The items become less worthwhile because the difficulty of acquiring them is no longer the same, which is compounded by the fact that the item is now on a lower item tier. I think some other people elaborated more elegantly on this issue than I have previously in the thread.

I absolutely respect your views on this, and I completely agree that stuff should be accessible. I just want to have some content that is challenging and give us trophies that don't become devaluated into nothingness by future patches.

So you would rather the difficulty to stay the same and SE to work hard on making new content so only the top 5-10% of the playerbase will ever see it? The players who can't beat turn 5 now will never beat it if it doesnt change. So you want 90% of the players locked out of ever progressing so you can continue feeling special for something you accomplished in 2.0/2.1 years down the road when only a handful of players are even allowed to try new content.

Ya that sounds like a good way to keep people playing.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Won't save it. They're copying the WoW transmogrification system instead of vanity slots from what I hear. You will need a craftsman to make a specific piece of gear look like another one and it will probably use up the item in the process. Why bother going back to grab old stuff if the new stuff is going to get invalidated in a matter of months? The rate at which he is doing this is already pissing off a lot of people. It also surprises me how many people seem to lack the human empathy to see why these people are getting upset about it.

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I'd like to know where you're getting your information, cause what I gathered from the live letter said nothing about that. They said that it would rely on crafting...beyond that, they simply said a vanity system was being released. What you described certainly isn't WoW's transmog system, either. I won't make any assumptions until we get more information, though.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'd like to know where you're getting your information, cause what I gathered from the live letter said nothing about that. They said that it would rely on crafting...beyond that, they simply said a vanity system was being released. What you described certainly isn't WoW's transmog system, either. I won't make any assumptions until we get more information, though.

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Because it will require a craft, that kind of suggests a transmogrification-like system. It suggests that a craftman needs to somehow merge the item appearance with another item. It may not be, but requiring a person to have craft x leveled to put item y in a vanity slot seems kind of... roundabout to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Because it will require a craft, that kind of suggests a transmogrification-like system. It suggests that a craftman needs to somehow merge the item appearance with another item. It may not be, but requiring a person to have craft x leveled to put item y in a vanity slot seems kind of... roundabout to say the least.

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Rely on crafting=/=requiring a craft. All we can do is speculate. What you are talking about isn't like WoW's though as far as method...but it is roundabout, I will agree with that much.

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Originally Posted by SanjuroXI

I miss the XI glory days. Feels like Obama is running this game handouts for everyone.

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Camping kings every day for years for sidegrades? Nobody wants that, not even you.

Wait when did they ever say that Turn 5 was going to be as easy as CT? They didn't, stop making outlandish assumptions. I don't care about e-peen rare swords, I care about experience and having fun. If I get to witness the "hard" and "fun" Turn 5 then hats off to me. Lower level content is going to continuously be less populated (as a majority of players are going to be 50+) so you can't make it too hard as that will just gate people from progressing.

Anyone who thought that their current gear would last had high hopes. This is progression. New content is added to progress and advance past your current gear set.

Haha, I had my downworthy filter on and it changed the thread title to : "Let's Copy the Vaguely Unpleasant Practice of MMOs From the Last 10 Years..."

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Because it will require a craft, that kind of suggests a transmogrification-like system. It suggests that a craftman needs to somehow merge the item appearance with another item. It may not be, but requiring a person to have craft x leveled to put item y in a vanity slot seems kind of... roundabout to say the least.

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You needed a crafter to use transmogrification? When did this change go in? I'm really failing to see how crafting and transmog were related at all unless you wanted to make an armor for your transmog set. Even then, you could probably buy it off the AH >.>

As for crafting being needed for this system here? I think it sounds cool. It isn't like crafting is hard to level anyhow if you use your leves. *shrug* Also, find it amusing that people are like.. assuming this means you need level 50 in the craft. Might be something you just need to have a craft at 10 or 15 for.

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Originally Posted by Greywizaqrd

It isn't about gear. It is about accomplishment. People worked hard to accomplish defeating the current content. Nerfing it makes that accomplishment worthless.

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No, it doesn't. I know what I did and how I did it. I don't care one bit that it will be easier for other people in 2 months when I'll have move to new content. My sense of accomplishment is not dependant on the fact that other people isn't able do it too, even more so knowing that the content has been nerfed. Honestly, why do you care that they'll be able to finished a watered-down version of the content? Be proud of what you did and let them discover the story too.

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Originally Posted by Greywizaqrd

It isn't about gear. It is about accomplishment. People worked hard to accomplish defeating the current content. Nerfing it makes that accomplishment worthless. It effectively removes the value of a massive amount of time and effort invested into a win. I do not subscribe to the "everyone is a winner" train of thought. You should not get a trophy for showing up. If you can't win at the current difficulty, too bad for you. Don't shit on my accomplishments to make yourself feel better about your own inadequacies.

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Doesn't this sound.. wrong to you? I'm always curious about people who go against the "everyone is a winner" mentality and then cite the only problem is that it diminishes their own self-worth. Something that is, funnily enough, only determined by -themselves-.

This isn't about them diminishing you, it is about you diminishing yourself. No one can go into the past and change your accomplishment or what it meant to you when you did it. However, you can allow yourself to make if worth less. Others simply can not do this, only you, yourself, can make your own accomplishes diminish in this respect.

Now, if someone could go back and say.... erase your achievement dates, take the gear away, wipe any evidence that the raid/win ever took place, wipe if from all memory.. Then I might put a little more credence in your lament. Sadly however, all I see is a poor evaluation system for self-esteem.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

DEAR GOD MY EYES!!!

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Use indentations or spacing or something in your posts man.

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Originally Posted by Greywizaqrd

It isn't about gear. It is about accomplishment. People worked hard to accomplish defeating the current content. Nerfing it makes that accomplishment worthless. It effectively removes the value of a massive amount of time and effort invested into a win. I do not subscribe to the "everyone is a winner" train of thought. You should not get a trophy for showing up. If you can't win at the current difficulty, too bad for you. Don't shit on my accomplishments to make yourself feel better about your own inadequacies.

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And you have accomplished something. You have something that no one else, in the future, will ever be able to have; the feel good factor that you beat the content before it was made more accessible for new players. This time in a few months, or a few years, you won't likely be doing Turns 1 to 5 again. Instead, you'll be working on the latest of end game contents, trying to beat whatever tough thing SE throws at you. Everyone else, in the meantime, can be progressing through the content, learning the story and lore, getting better and following in your footsteps.

Sure, it will be easier for them than it was for you. But that is both the price and the reward for being there when it was first released. Draw yourself a medal/award and hang it on your wall if it matters that much, that something is needed to remind yourself that "you were there before it was easier". This same attitude happens in XI when the CoP nerfs came in to let other players get through the content (especially because getting help from those who had already done it was getting harder to find).

MASSIVE AMOUNT OF TIME AND EFFORT?

A COUPLE MONTHS OF PLAYING A GAME????

LOL

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Didn't they learn from the mistake they made with raising the level cap in FFXI?

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No they learned and learned well. They didn't try to stifle progress by making everything difficulty, gear, etc set to the level cap bar like in XI. Furthermore we've known for months that there would be a level increase eventually, and they didn't screw over years of progress by holding onto that methodology and throwing in the level cap increase after 8+ years of vehemently saying they'd never do it like in XI.

Even if they increase the level cap tomorrow to 60, i70+ gear will still be relevant we'll just have more options and opportunities to get more gear within those 50-60 ranges.

I'm not saying everyone should agree with my point of view, but the situation this time around is completely different than what happened in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

FFXI kept old content valid for new players because it remained valuable to the old players. So you could still get people to come back from the new content to help you with the old stuff. On top of which, the people who accomplished the old content would get the same sense of accomplishment as the old generation did when they first did it, because the boss wasn't nerfed into oblivion and its drops were not rendered mechanically useless.

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I'm gonna call bullshit on this. I remember when I joined FFXI during early-mid ToAU (this was back before Odin had a name, and before we even knew anything at all about Alexander), part of my reason for joining was for the Shadow Lord fight (I'd heard the music for his fight, and wanted to know what he looked like as well as how hard the fight would be). When I brought it up again, I was told "Just get to 50 and we'll carry you through both 5-1 and 5-2".

Before that, I had clearly seen videos of people fighting it in full 6-man parties, 75 capped with proper setups. Granted, so many of them took the "WoWzords" approach of not using the actual game music (in addition to muting the sound), so some of those videos couldn't be enjoyed properly.

But it was basically "Rank Missions are a necessary pain in the ass, RoZ's an annoying pain in the ass, CoP's where it's at, and if you're not Aht Urhgan, you're not at all". Coupled with the fact that I rarely got to play with my LS mates (unless it was something I 'needed' for progression - and the only progression that people actually gave a rat's ass about was that of the LS leader(s)) and you have what I term "the most masochistic form of fun in existence". Seriously, it played like some min-maxer's wetdream. I'm not a fan of that.

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Originally Posted by Greywizaqrd

Take a look at FFXI. It progressed for many years with capped level and sideways content. I'm not saying it can last forever, but seven months is way too early to start shitting all over the hard work players put into gearing up.

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You mean how FFXI raised the level cap to 55 on September 2002...FOUR MONTHS after release ? And to 60 TWO months later ? With all the AF1 which were far better than anything at this point ?

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

throwing in the level cap increase after 8+ years of vehemently saying they'd never do it like in XI.

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FFXI didn't start with a lvl cap of 75 (It took it one year and a half to raise it there). And the problem with the level cap was the mainjob/subjob synergy. That can't happen in FF XIV because the cross-class abilities doesn't follow such a rule.

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Originally Posted by Renvalt

Seriously, it played like some min-maxer's wetdream.

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I remember. It was beautiful. :)

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Originally Posted by Greywizaqrd

It isn't about gear. It is about accomplishment. People worked hard to accomplish defeating the current content. Nerfing it makes that accomplishment worthless. It effectively removes the value of a massive amount of time and effort invested into a win. I do not subscribe to the "everyone is a winner" train of thought. You should not get a trophy for showing up. If you can't win at the current difficulty, too bad for you. Don't shit on my accomplishments to make yourself feel better about your own inadequacies.

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Don't shit on the playerbase because you want to feel better about wasting your time in a video game.

They still could have just added content and simply added alternative gear. It doesn't even need different stats: It could have the same stats as some other pieces that currently exist. That way they put the focus on experiencing the content rather than on artificially ramping everything up continuously and promoting power creep.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I remember. It was beautiful. :)

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Which is why sideways progression worked so well in that game. You didnt just have one set of BIS gear, you had tp set, idle set, ws set, etc etc. Sideways progression could work in FFXIV but you can't expect the amount of it that XI had, They are just different games.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Camping kings every day for years for sidegrades? Nobody wants that, not even you.

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That's exactly what some people want. Alpha forums, and to a lesser extent the beta forums, had plenty of people clamoring for the exact same style of HNM/Kings from FFXI. Regardless of whether or not those people want to admit the true reason why they want that kind of a system, I think most of us "logical" folks know why they would want that.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Camping kings every day for years for sidegrades? Nobody wants that, not even you.

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I do miss kings actually I miss my gear swaps to

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

FFXI didn't start with a lvl cap of 75 (It took it one year and a half to raise it there). And the problem with the level cap was the mainjob/subjob synergy. That can't happen in FF XIV because the cross-class abilities doesn't follow such a rule.

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I know, but it was an 8 or so year gap to raise the level cap above 75 after years of saying they wouldn't anymore. It would have been alright if they slowly raised the cap every year or so, but they never scaled content for beyond 75 either completely obsoleting gear and older content overnight.

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Originally Posted by Oleander

Which is why sideways progression worked so well in that game. You didnt just have one set of BIS gear, you had tp set, idle set, ws set, etc etc. Sideways progression could work in FFXIV but you can't expect the amount of it that XI had, They are just different games.

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Hey, I don't quite care for that whole "Best in Slot" crap.

And early-game FFXI, there was that kind of bullshit in game to begin with. Didn't have Emperor Pin? Kicked for not having. Warrior at Level 37+ without Ninja properly leveled, Utsusemi gained and the tools to use it? Didn't have Dual Axes? Boo hoo, you so bad Mister Gimp Warrior. Go home and play WoW.

I was forced to spend time in Giddeus farming Yagudo Necklaces for gods knows how long, while my so-called "LS buddies" all got to play in their fancy ass Dynamis/Sky/Limbus/Salvage arenas. I officially quit the game just a tiny bit after Wings of the Goddess came out, so I never got to experience how Abyssea might have "ruined" the game. But I'll admit - if Abyssea made 5-2's Shadow Lord even more pointless, then perhaps it was best I left after all.

In the end, I'm all for enjoying things the same way everyone else did, but not if you intentionally try to invalidate that content. Perhaps the ones responsible for "making content obsolete" isn't SE, perhaps it's you?

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Accomplishments and the sense of prestige that comes with it is the MMORPG equivalent to "winning" in other game genres. It is the very goal of the game and the entire point to continuing to play after you've exhausted the main story. They are taking that away from people, thus demolishing the game for them. FFXI DID NOT DO THIS! They stopped at lvl 75 for many years before some guy decided it would be a good idea to try raising the level cap... which destroyed much of the game.

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And in XI you got the best gear after working your ass off for it, then it also became less special as things progressed. The only place to get E. Body, M. Body, etc was from Kings at one point, then ToAU came out and all those people who didn't want to spend time camping Kings started getting the high tier abjurations just from doing Einherjar and killing Odin. Then it progressed even further and they turned into force spawn NMs. Want that Defending Ring? Just spam farm pop items and kill HNMs until the RNG gods bless you with their favor.

XI did the same thing as they're doing in XIV only on a slower scale. If you really want that sense of accomplishment go for server or world first, otherwise accept the fact that you'll be progressing at your own pace and the content that was difficult for you will eventually be made easy for the masses.

Problem I have is its just boring. I don't personally enjoy chasing gear which essentially is the same as my old gear just slightly better.

I want options. I want multiple gear sets that I can switch to for different situations. Why is it even called Armoury system? Should be called One gear setup until next major patch system.

Remember the terrible bard nerf that would destroy the class and it not being wanted anymore? OH WAIT! IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! PEOPLE OVERREACTED!

If you're that worried about people knowing you beat twintania before the nerf your achievement shows the date when you first killed her.

This thread is stupid, simply because everything was predicted from the beginning. Yoshi basically told everyone that new content would be hard and it will be nerfed as they move on with newer content...

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I can't. I just can't. This thread should just go die with the other (same topic!) ones.

I think people are vastly overestimating both the item level of new gear and how easy twin will be post-patch. If the mechanics are still unavoidable that's still a lot of coordination for a DF group.

Friend: "Dude, I just beat <insert boss/raid>!!!"
You: "Nice! I remember when I beat that before the nerf ;P"
Friend: "Haha was it really hard?"
You: "Yup you had to do <insert mechanics>"
Friend: "Wow that sounds really hard."

*feeling of accomplishment restored*

^ Conversations you have in every MMO ever. SE isn't diminishing anybody's accomplishment. Such a feeling is self-perceived and perhaps you should check your own ego and/or esteem.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Accomplishments and the sense of prestige that comes with it is the MMORPG equivalent to "winning" in other game genres. It is the very goal of the game and the entire point to continuing to play after you've exhausted the main story. They are taking that away from people, thus demolishing the game for them. FFXI DID NOT DO THIS! They stopped at lvl 75 for many years before some guy decided it would be a good idea to try raising the level cap... which destroyed much of the game.

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People hate on Abyssea and the level cap raise all the time, but the truth is that XI was stale and going nowhere. Most of the people who hated these were probably the same people who botted kings every day to maintain their deluded feeling of self-importance.

I actually enjoyed Abyssea. and it was the lvl99 cap that killed it for me. Everything became a Soul Voice/Embrava buffed WAR/DRK stun lock zerg fest, endgame was absolutely intolerable and I never went back.

Thankfully I didn't hang on past 90 days to find out this game wasn't for me. Gratz to all of you that enjoy the current state of the game. The 3+ weeks(still ongoing) to get customer support to work with me on a improper item purchase helped me make my decision. If they're that hard to work with on something Rift or other games could handle in a day or 2 I've decided not to resub/award them for a craptastic job. If they do something in the future more than have an arena for PvP I might gain an interest again, but SE has already shown me how they treat sub'ing customers.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

And? So because you paid for it, you're forced to do something you clearly dislike? Your free time can't be that worthless.

Only an idiot would stick around doing something they hate. :rolleyes:

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point to where i said i hate something.
i dont like the direction the game is going & people like you personally attack others because you have nothing better to do then try and make you self look better then you actually are.

this thread just contradicts what many a thread has been complaining about.

people finish content before 2.1. people complain.
they don't add vertical progression in 2.1. the same people complain.
they add vertical progession in 2.2, and removed the lockout on coil 1-5 (which we asked for, remember) and nerfed it (which they said they would). the same people complain.

sure the lockout gets removed, but most likely myth and allagan become the new bare minimum for the next raid. the people who beat the content before 2.2 get to say they beat it when it was actually difficult, and will probably blaze through the next turns...while it's still difficult. it's not the fact you did it that you cleared it come 2.2, its the fact that you were one of the first.

@SarcasmMisser: i am making the assumption it is going to be ilvl110, since our current gear level is i90-95, and that would put it at the same gap as Darklight is with myth.

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Originally Posted by Oleander

Which is why sideways progression worked so well in that game. You didnt just have one set of BIS gear, you had tp set, idle set, ws set, etc etc. Sideways progression could work in FFXIV but you can't expect the amount of it that XI had, They are just different games.

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XI has had time to build horizontal progression. in 2.1 we got a little horizontal progression. But it's a new game in MMO standards (in terms of MMOs that actually survive), and it's probably going to be a long time before the XIV team finally gets their shit sorted out and makes something like that happen.

Yup, I'm going to wait 6 months to get my relic. Another 8 months to gear up the hard way. And maybe 3 years to defeat coil 1 - 5 pre-nerf. So much accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Nosiahk

Yup, I'm going to wait 6 months to get my relic. Another 8 months to gear up the hard way. And maybe 3 years to defeat coil 1 - 5 pre-nerf. So much accomplishment.

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You must be one hell of a scrub. After reaching 50, you can hit ilvl80 in just 2 days... yep, just 2. Relic can be gained in two hours. Repeat CT - 30 min runs until you have your piece and 200/50 tomestones. Get full DL and first myth piece. Farm ultima for two more i80 pieces. This should give you ilvl80. If not, even the biggest casuals out there can easily farm coil 1-2/garuda EM for more pieces. In fact, T1-4 are easy pugs these days. All you would need is good practice and group for T5.

So stop over-exaggerating, I have ALL classes at ilvl80+ without even trying. The game is already very casual friendly as it is.