WAR > PLD

Both PLD and WAR have their specific abilities to generate hate and aggro, emnity, whatever.

If played to their highest strengths, aggro would be passed back and forth. In a coordinated group, aggro IS passed back and forth because it is necessary, and PLD can hold hate against a WAR.

In a non coordinated group, or when someone decides he has a bigger virtual sack then the other, neither the PLD nor the WAR can keep and hold the hate.

Abigs above mentions how a pally would have to be stupid to compete on aggro and gives his solution as to how a WAR keeps the hate. But a PLD, with his emnity amplifier on Shield Oath, can start his or her RoH combo, and before the last hit, pop provoke, finish the combo, start the next one, throw in Spirits, finish the RoH, and keep it. Oh wait! WAR has hate again because HIS combo finished and he used a cool down, so I'll wait for provoke.......

Coordinated, PLD and WAR do very well. Not coordinated, don't bother with Ultima (HM) or beyond.

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Originally Posted by Abigs

do remember than warriors auto attacks are almost double that of pally..

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Has absolutely no effect upon relative enmity generation. Both WAR and PLD get 83.33 potency per GCD from their auto-attacks. WAR might hit twice as hard, but a PLD is going to hit twice as often.

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and BB has 20 more potency than halone (20 is small but do remember both skills have 5x modifier on enmity)..

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Defiance applies a 25% damage debuff compared to Shield Oath's 20%. If you ignore the damage buffs and just assume BB spam compared to RoH spam, PLD wins: RoH generates 1640 enmity potency (.8 * (150 + 200 * 3 + 260 * 5); ignoring stance enmity buff since it's the same for both) and BB generates 1612.5 (.75 * (150 + 200 * 3 + 280 *5)). This doesn't factor in the off-GCD attacks that PLD gets, which adds another 40 enmity potency/GCD (25 from each * .8); Brutal Swing only adds ~4.7 (.75 * 50 / 8).

If you factor in Maim, you have to recognize that you're sacrificing 1/3rd of your rotation to a low enmity combo (you can ignore SE because PLD would benefit from it just as much), which means that, while you're getting 20% more out of everything, you're only generating 590-610 (150 + 190 + 250-or-270) one-third of the time. As such, WAR would be generating 1644 enmity potency/GCD*3 (1.2 * .75 * (2 * ((150 + 200 * 3 + 280 *5) + (150 + 190 + 250))) / 3). PLD still wins because of off-GCD benefits.

On top of this, FoF is stronger than Unchained + Berserk and has no use limitation (Unchained requires 5 Wrath stacks and Berserk can only be used when you can afford to be pacified). FoF provides a straight up 10% increase to damage over time (.3 * 30 / 90); Unchained is, at most, a 5.5% increase (.33 * 20 / 120) and Berserk is a ~3.54% increase to damage dealt ((20 * .4 - 5 * .75) / 120) but only ~3.05% increase to enmity generated ((20 * .4 - 5 * (1 - .132)) / 120); auto-attacks are ~25% of total damage but only 13.2% of enmity generation), which means that WAR gets a total of a ~8.7% increase to total enmity generation from their CDs (1.055 * 1.0305). Before you say anything about it, you actually get more total damage contribution out of using Berserk on the 120 second interval because you're increase the functional CD by 33% but increasing total damage while active by 33% because of Unchained which makes the two equal out; it ends up contributing more because you're getting 5 secs of Pacification every 120 seconds instead of every 90 seconds.

As to Wrath stacks, if you assume 20 seconds to build up to 5 stacks (20 seconds averaging 2.5 stacks) and 10 second of saving the stacks (30 seconds use cycle on Inner Beast), you amount to a 6.67% increase in crit chance ((20 * 2.5 * 2 + 10 * 5 * 2) / 30). At a 10% base crit chance (which means 50% more damage), that's a 3.17% increase in total damage ((1 + .5 * .1667) / (1 + .5 * 1.1)).

Put it all together and you get

PLD:
(1640 / 3 + 40 ) * .8 * 1.1 = 516.27 enmity pot/GCD
WAR:
(1644 / 3 + 4.7) * .75 * 1.0317 * 1.055 * 1.0305 = 464.95 enmity pot/GCD

WAR can actually eke out more than that by leveraging the times on CD (e.g. Berserk lasts 20 seconds, which is 266% of a 3 part combo; if you activate Berserk after Heavy Swing, you get more than you would under the assumption of perfectly averaged values), but it's not going to 11% more total enmity. If you want to call BS on me, do the math first because I've already done it multiple times.

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5 stacks you gain access to steel cyclone (yes you sacrifice IB for it but its only an option if your pally is dumb enough to compete on aggro)

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Using Steel Cyclone for additional enmity is going to provide a reasonable enmity benefit (SC is an effective 266.66 potency hit for, presumably, 5x enmity, or 1333.33 enmity; assume a use cycle of 9 GCDs, 8 GCDs to generate 5 stacks + 1 GCD for use; (8 * (1644 / 3) + 1333.33) / 9 = 635.26 epot/GCD; (1644 / 3) = 548 epot/GCD is the "standard" for a ~16% increase in enmity generated), but it's going to drop your mitigation by a fair deal (20% DR * 6 seconds duration / 22.5 second use cycle = 5.33% DR over time).

If you really want to bring up impractical tactics like using SC on CD to bolster enmity generation as opposed to saving/using it for IB, you can bring up impractical Provoke tactics as well. Anyone who uses Provoke right as the other tank's big damage buff is fading, especially if it's PLD 'voking off of WAR during the Pacification, is going to have a massive enmity advantage that completely negates whatever the other tank might've had. As soon as you start bringing up stuff that you're not really going to use unless you're just doing proof of concept, you start getting into the realm of inapplicable theory.

just a simple question here..but..you mentioned CT and i've seen this happen in CT multiple times, here it is: Did you perchance have shield oath up when you pulled? if you didn't i'm sorry to say that you have 99 problems and a WAR aint one bud.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

Cool story bro.

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Your story was way cooler, you should tell us again!

Could you also tell us why you adjusted (read deleted) your initial post? xD

Did you figure out how provoke actually works? I could help you.

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Originally Posted by Riyos

I'm a War. I love Wars. I hate Plds. But this thread is so stupid

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It's because of the initial post made. I guess 'stupid' being the keyword here, that's why he/she "adjusted" it (completely deleted it lol).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It's the exact same true with a WAR tank, except with Butcher's Block instead of Rage of Halone. In fact, a PLD is going to have the advantage at the start because of their 20% damage debuff compared to WAR's 25%. On top of that, unlike PLD which can blow their damage buff right off the bat, for a WAR, because of Wrath and Maim, it's actually best for them to wait until after 2 full rotations before activating their damage buffs (Unchained, Berserk, Internal Release). WAR *could* Infuriate>Unchained>Berserk immediately, but it generates less enmity than delaying it. In *that* case, WAR is going to be hardcore frontloaded compared to PLD if they immediately go into BB spam but will be behind until shortly after their first BB is they delay the BB combo for Maim.

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For some reason I was thinking combo'd SS had a slight higher potency then Savage, and made up for it in Halone, so my bad on the wording. My main point was with the Flash at the start, the comboed BB would be hitting sooner then a Halone, and thus the hate grab shortly into the fight as the OP seemed to be experiencing. Sounds like we agree on that, thanks for the correction, shows I haven't been playing enough PLD as of recent, heh. I do completely agree they'll be close in enmity if equally geared, that's why i said neck and neck earlier. ;o

As far as blowing Unchained + Berserk at the start, that is what most tanks *SHOULD* be doing. Threat gen at the very start of the fight is the most significant thing we can do to get DD rolling out faster. Threat gen is a joke after 2.1, you are describing optimizing threat against another tank fully optimizing threat, which simply shouldn't be happening. MTs are generally established, and securing threat at the start is more important then an overall threat boost down the road when DDs can barely make it halfway up the threat bar in the long run. I'd rather let that BRD or BLM front load all their damage asap without worry of aggroe jacking, since once established, my threat isn't going anywhere.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Your story was way cooler, you should tell us again!

Could you also tell us why you adjusted (read deleted) your initial post? xD

Did you figure out how provoke actually works? I could help you.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

It's because of the initial post made. I guess 'stupid' being the keyword here, that's why he/she "adjusted" it (completely deleted it lol).

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I'm not sure your reasoning for being a complete douche and continuing on berating someone who has gracefully bowed out:

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

I think this is exactly what's happening here. Thanks for helping me see that. I'm going to adjust my rotation accordingly and test. Thanks to the handful who contributed some useful information to this thread.

I understand that the tone of the original post was out-of-line. My apologies, but it was getting extremely frustrating. Thanks for reading :)

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I didn't like their initial tone either, and they have corrected it and apologized. I have nothing but respect for people willing to do such, as they are hard to find these days. Please stop being vile and contributing to negativity abzoluut, and others coming in after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

No.

Unless he's using Provoke or you're afk'ing halfway through the fight.

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This couldn't be further from the truth. Hopefully you wont have tanks fighting over hate, but a geared warrior will always take and maintain hate. There is no argument about that, war has higher damage output and more burst to hold onto sustained hate. Especially if your war is geared for OT (Crit/Det/Vit Acc, etc). My Warrior comes into a odin fight and I usually take hate in a manner of minutes. Just part of War master race <3

In what universe is rapid enmity generation a factor? I'm not sure why this thread has continued so far.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

In what universe is rapid enmity generation a factor? I'm not sure why this thread has continued so far.

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I'm also curious to see how long this will keep coming up.

However, from what I have seen, if any thread comes up that mentions PLD and WAR, or SCH and WHM in it, it will veer off into which one is better than the other, statistical argument about how one is not better than the other, idealistic argument about how they see one as better than the other, turning into discussion on how one played against the other does work well, and then into discussion on how it is all a team effort anyway and doesn't matter.

I think this will probably go for a few more days, maybe a week, as it is coming to the end of that whole cycle, at which point it slowly fades into the background.....ever so slowly.....

From my understanding oof the tanking classes paladins are better for single target large bosses, like ultima weapon. Things with no adds. Where as the warrior excells in quick generation of hate over mass amount of mobs. I recall it being described as static/controlled paladin tanking but dynamic/chaos tanking for warriors.