2.15 PvP changes

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Now A SMN is definitely going to meld Crit so at least 1-2 out of the list is going to crit.

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You obviously don't know how +crit works. You also need determination, as the min-max geeks have recently determined. There is no such guarantee of critting.

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Also why can't you counter a healer's healing? You'd be spamming Ruin 2 all the time and should be

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Well, I"m not countering. So I guess your guess is as good as mine. Most of the matches I lose, a healer successfully counters my burst train, and once my steam runs out (PvP CD's used and Raging strikes has worn off) the healer has no trouble healing against me. The only tool SMN has to get ahead in this situation is Bane, which does work, provided you aren't already dead from being bursted by the other team (Which virtually all teams gangbang the SMN first due to its reputation)

I had 11 kills Whack-A-SMN/SCH spree which I lost back when I was a 70MRD...

@Alhanelem

I don't know about you son. But for me I'd seeing crits of at least 1 skill during a burst phase. I only have to pray to the RnG gods that it is my Flare as a BLM. Then I can go "Wohoo 2.2k biatze!" Say if you're not melding Crit/Determination as SMN what are you melding seriously? Even I'm the exception of pushing Spell Speed on 90Caster which has minimal Spell Speed manages to crit during those times.

There are absurd times where I Hardcast Flare, FireStarter, Quickcast Convert Flare and cleaved everyone on my healer. OR the time where that full PvE Monk took a 3.8k Flare crit in the face followed by 2.5k Firestarter. Crit happens and saying 1 - 2 out of what 6 skills Critting is already being generous, Garuda Enkindle critting is enough to make your day real miserable.


@ Alhanelem.. On a later post...
"What are you talking about? Casting your three main dots is effectively a combo prerequisite."

Doing it wrong man... Just saying...

Also you'd think it that easily for MRD to switch target? Switching without Storm Eye debuff? switching without CDs? Switching when you already committed your Full Swing? Go study up other classes before you think switching means you can ramp up 100% damage efficiency.

Alhanelem, I know I've played at least 20 or so matches against you while I was solo or duo queuing. Can you not recall the murderous acts I've committed on the healers you've been paired with? i70 and i90 MRDs do in fact pull of huge Butcher's Blocks, but the point that very experienced players are trying to make is that melee burst requires built-in combos. Butcher's Block, assuming 100% uptime on every action you queue, takes 7.5 seconds to execute, while requiring that you're in melee range of your target, and not including buffs and debuffs on your opponent.

SMN burst kills the target dead from range with absolutely zero setup/combo prerequisites. You see your target from across the map, use a macro that buffs your pet (off-GCD) and sends it to Obey your target. You Sprint, buff yourself, and kill them almost immediately most of the time, or cripple them so severely HP-wise that the rest of their team is at the whim of the rest of yours assuming the same thing isn't happening to you.

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Originally Posted by Deca

No more fights where you have 6 kills and lose =)

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Rofl, this. Most I had was like 5 kills in one game against a double smn team with Hud on top of his game with sleeps. Still lost tho, they're like zombies I swear

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Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

I had 11 kills Whack-A-SMN/SCH spree which I lost back when I was a 70MRD...

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Holy crap 11 kills.. I dont even..

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SMN burst kills the target dead from range with absolutely zero setup/combo prerequisites.

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What are you talking about? Casting your three main dots is effectively a combo prerequisite. That's around 5 seconds and change, so SMN doesn't get going drastically faster than the MRD in your example. Also, MRD can easily get his combo going on another target before switching to you, while SMN doesn't have this option (at least, not as conveniently, and at the cost of an aetherflow charge)

Another thing you have to remember is it's no longer possible to enhance this with a BRD's presence. Yes, the hidden nerf: Foe Requiem is now totally useless short of a WHM or SCH nuking in cleric stance, due to the impossibility of BRD and BLM or SMN being paired together.

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...so you didn't read my explanation of the burst combo that the few good PvPers in this thread have referenced? The SMN burst that kills a target in 2 GCDs makes no use of a single DOT spell.

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Then there's something I'm not understanding, becuase Fester is SMN's highest damaging skill, and there's no reason you can't do all those other things in addtion to that. So how am I a "bad" SMN. Casting DoT's is "wrong"? Please, by all means enlighten me. All I know is enkindle + my non fester off GCDs are not enough to kill people. Somehow yours are, so I'd like to know what I'm not doing.

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or cripple them so severely HP-wise that the rest of their team is at the whim of the rest of yours assuming the same thing isn't happening to you.

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That's one hell of an assumption.

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Bards use FR to enhance their own windbite and stuff like that.

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Foe Requiem has no effect on non-mage abilities. It has no effect on Windbite, no effect on MNKs using Fists of Fire, no effect on flaming arrows. As far as I'm aware it ONLY effects magic damage cast by magic classes.

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4th Titan is even more of a joke as you will most likely miss his Enkindle since it is cast on a PBAoE around Titan's current position.

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I don't know what "PBAoE" means, but Titan's enkindle is centered on its target; Yes, people can walk off the ground AoE, but that's in addition to the immediate damage. Titan not so much, but Ifrit is not that uncommon to see. Yes, his regular attacks are not elemental, but isn't enkindle the whole reason you brought up resistance to begin with?

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Originally Posted by LateRegi

Yeah, that's not at all bursting and is blocked by Purify. You proved his point further and argued against Deca without knowing it.

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He was talking about 3-shotting something as a SMN. So gave a quick example that works on many players purity doesn't use Purify for dots, my dear forum quoting troll *wink wink*

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What are you talking about? Casting your three main dots is effectively a combo prerequisite. That's around 5 seconds and change, so SMN doesn't get going drastically faster than the MRD in your example. Also, MRD can easily get his combo going on another target before switching to you, while SMN doesn't have this option (at least, not as conveniently, and at the cost of an aetherflow charge)

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...so you didn't read my explanation of the burst combo that the few good PvPers in this thread have referenced? The SMN burst that kills a target in 2 GCDs makes no use of a single DOT spell. I'll reiterate: Buff pet > set to Obey target > Sprint > buff self on way to target > Enkindle at long range while approaching target > Wither > Aetheric Burst > Energy Drain/Ruin II > completely dead target. No DOTs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What are you talking about? Casting your three main dots is effectively a combo prerequisite. That's around 5 seconds and change, so SMN doesn't get going drastically faster than the MRD in your example. Also, MRD can easily get his combo going on another target before switching to you, while SMN doesn't have this option (at least, not as conveniently, and at the cost of an aetherflow charge)

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You dont need to use any of that. Just use all your instant skills, and you WILL do 3-6k damage in 4 seconds. Toss a swiftcast bind (or have something stun) on their healer just prior to the burst, and you have a very dead target. 100% of the time.

I think the real problem here, and why you think the class was fine, is because you're a bad SMN.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What are you talking about? Casting your three main dots is effectively a combo prerequisite. That's around 5 seconds and change, so SMN doesn't get going drastically faster than the MRD in your example. Also, MRD can easily get his combo going on another target before switching to you, while SMN doesn't have this option (at least, not as conveniently, and at the cost of an aetherflow charge)

Another thing you have to remember is it's no longer possible to enhance this with a BRD's presence. Yes, the hidden nerf: Foe Requiem is now totally useless short of a WHM or SCH nuking in cleric stance, due to the impossibility of BRD and BLM or SMN being paired together.

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Bards use FR to enhance their own windbite and stuff like that (Unless it still doesn't work). Also, I'll be the first to admit 90% of the time I PvP now unless I know the team is serious I don't even use DoTs I just shotgun rambo instants and dumb stuff for the first minute of a fight. It requires virtually no thought and when you're helping your 5th friend hit r30 it's worth the few losses you might suffer for the ease of use lol I'm looking forward to 4s so I can teach myself to pay attention again.

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Originally Posted by Deca

Bards use FR to enhance their own windbite and stuff like that (Unless it still doesn't work).

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It doesn't. Only magic attacks.

@ Deca

I think most Rank 30s who stressed out from the Marathon to 30 are mostly trolling during solo Queues. Half the time I'm trying to Sleep Melee to go to a straight Fire 3 > Flare Hardcast =P. And also refusing to Swiftcast Sleep cause I want to Convert Swiftcast Flare for giggles.

The best of all now u get still hit even if u jump.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me...sv4mo1_500.gif

http://i.imgur.com/M0ktc0q.gif

mmm so whos actually gonna use 4v4 ? We barely have any high rank meele dps in our server lol ...
Unless 2s or 1s XP per win is like 40 or more and lose is 20? (considering the risk of 2s) , I think were still stuck with 3s.

Good morning guys. From what I've seen, the community can both help and also ruin our game. I believe that some things in this update were too hasty.

Why people cry to nerf something? Why not just try to play better? Since they are great skilled gamers, intelligent and opinion leaders. Any class can do a lot damage if free to do DPS. I think the ARR mathematically very balanced both in PvP and PvE.

About PvP, I think what should make difference would be the teamplay and individual skill. But it's not what we have seen. For me it's more than clear that once again in a MMO, the grind and gear are making more difference than skills.

Adjusting the queue was a very good point, but it would be better to just leave a solo or 4s queue. I played quite premade 3s and was where I made more exp. There is nothing to discuss, it was the largest imbalance that existed: premade 3s X random. I'm pretty sure that first r30 guys played almost only in premades where most of his wins came from coward imbalance than their fingers. I saw players who licK.s R.30 people to grind in a premade with two r30.

In a matter of class and jobs, we have to be careful before you cry or ask to nerf certain class. But anyway all changes is a matter of adapting to the good players.
Except for some improvements to melee, I believe that everything was too unwise. Speaking as a smn ranged dps with 200 + ms latency, I do not think the Miama's hevy is better than sleep and lethargy of BLM or bind and kick of the Bard. I do not think rez is better than BLM manashields or ABSURD ability of the Bard to cast while walking and make the best use of the pillars and walls. And the SCH, how it will look against the stone, fluid aura and repose of the WHM?

But anyway, I'm pretty sure that good summoners as Milk Bog, DJ, Dec Ember and Cali Ex will adapt and continue representing our job very well.

But now let's think about the next class to be the target of nerf: Thaumaturge

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Originally Posted by deki

I do not think rez is better than BLM manashields

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How is pulling a member of your team back up not significantly better than a 2 hit physical shield and a 30% hp magic shield? D:
Comparing them just makes it sound like you're downplaying how strong a battle rez is.

I won't be surprised if they do something about sleep next.
The duration of it is pretty silly.

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Originally Posted by Quackley

How is pulling a member of your team back up not significantly better than a 2 hit physical shield and a 30% hp magic shield? D:
Comparing them just makes it sound like you're downplaying how strong a battle rez is.

I won't be surprised if they do something about sleep next.
The duration of it is pretty silly.

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Make your calculations and see if other classes can not do more than a rez weakness with hp for a hitkill. I was trying to say: What is better> Die and get a rez with weakness or be a blm and have skills to survive?

I think it was balanced.

I'm personally surprised Summoner was not more adjusted than it was. I say 'adjusted' rather than 'nerfed' because a flat out nerf would make us weaker than other classes, not balanced. The nerf on Miasma 1/2 (from 50% down to 20%) and the removal of 'battle rez' didn't seem that bad to me. I thought it was specifically mentioned by an official source that our PETS were the thing that made us slightly overpowered (arcanists in general) and that they would be reworked? It seems they didn't touch pets... but, the restriction they put on one melee / one ranged dps should be enough to force balance in teams. It's sad it needs to be absolutely forced though. I like the changes they made regarding 'bonus' exp for signing up as 1/2/4 people. It should help fix the 'let's queue as 3 people' epidemic. I also support the reduction of materia prices... they were far too high, even for hardcore rank 30 pvpers.

another question is do we have dr time anymore our healing reduction effect when its not heavy anymore? Or it is like maraudens effect?

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Originally Posted by deki

Make your calculations and see if other classes can not do more than a rez weakness with hp for a hitkill. I was trying to say: What is better> Die and get a rez with weakness or be a blm and have skills to survive?

I think it was balanced.

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Fortunately there's abilities to pull someone up after rezzes, or to CC people off, or do something. Or they don't attack right away and enjoy the immunity for a short time.
A rez on a teammate is noticeably better than the shields.

I don't know if battle rez was really an issue that needed to be removed from summoners, rather than nerfing their burst, but their utility was very good, way better than the shields.
Now it's been hit pretty hard, but the damage was left intact.

Also, someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, but the forced parties makes Foe's Requiem literally worthless unless your healer wants to nuke.
It doesn't work for the BRD himself because Wind/Venom Bite are both physical spells in their application and their dot.

Turns out I just learned that today. :/


I just hopped on and solo queued a 50 match.
60 xp, 100 Wolf Marks for a win.
Dayuuuuuum

You get double EXP/Marks for Solo Que now. Very slight increase, around 5%, for duo.

Lmao, the 1 tank, 1 melee dps, 1 ranged dps, 1 healer has to be the one of the most lazy changes I've ever seen.

SMN is still by far BIS for ranged.

Ah well.

I really don't like the idea of forcing party makeups. I feel sorry for all the BRDs who are going to be shunned out of that coveted ranged DPS slot.

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Originally Posted by Quackley

60 xp, 100 Wolf Marks for a win.
Dayuuuuuum

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Yeah double xp but we wait ten times more...

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Originally Posted by Edenlys

Yeah double xp but we wait ten times more...

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I think getting melee dps is not so big deal since most of bots i have seen are melee dps.

I read the patch notes and celebrated (not really, but good changes overall).

I especially like the movement to having specific party compositions. Double ranged comps had a significant advantage over double melee comps.

I like all of the changes except the forced comp change into 1 melee and 1 ranged. Every ranged who had a friend they played with that was ranged can no longer play with that person. Same thing for melees, of which I fall into this category. This change is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I like all of the changes except the forced comp change into 1 melee and 1 ranged. Every ranged who had a friend they played with that was ranged can no longer play with that person. Same thing for melees, of which I fall into this category. This change is ridiculous.

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It's just a lazy way to try and balance the game. I really wish they'd create a PTR to collect data and feedback in pursuit of better balance adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I like all of the changes except the forced comp change into 1 melee and 1 ranged. Every ranged who had a friend they played with that was ranged can no longer play with that person. Same thing for melees, of which I fall into this category. This change is ridiculous.

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It's actually what I hate the most about this change. I don't always want to play tryhard comps all the time. Sometimes I want to play with friends or guildmates.

Seems like 4's queues are still non existant =(

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Originally Posted by Epistane

Seems like 4's queues are still non existant =(

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Hopefully we can get some going during prime-time.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

Lmao, the 1 tank, 1 melee dps, 1 ranged dps, 1 healer has to be the one of the most lazy changes I've ever seen.

SMN is still by far BIS for ranged.

Ah well.

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-1 R30 pvp'er for now. Was hoping to actually get to enjoy playing something other than my SMN for once without being pegged as a CC bot, but forcing this group composition pretty much makes this close to impossible. Time to level another character!

So did they COMPLETELY fix jumping? Does this mean I can actually jump now and not be an exploiter

Now people are FORCED to bring me!

MUHAHAHAHA!

(no but seriously all the changes are quite good, on the fence about the healing debuff changes but everything else is pretty solid)

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Originally Posted by Epistane

So did they COMPLETELY fix jumping? Does this mean I can actually jump now and not be an exploiter

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I still hate it personally - too many bad memories associated with it at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

I'm personally surprised Summoner was not more adjusted than it was.

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As far as the ability changes. I imagine they are waiting till 2.2

Why? I'm going to guess sloppy programming. Notice that any change that was not removing a component completely (like an on off switch) affected both pvp, and pve. Meaning they would of messed with SMN numbers in pve and they probably dont want to go down that road at the moment.

Simply blinded by a simple fact here...this thread mostly filled with talks/complaints/inputs about the SMN class, why? Simple, too many new and skilled players "experienced" how useless their job is compared to SMNs. It makes it pretty obvious that the class has an advantage that make other jobs (DPS) pointless. Why bring a DRG to your PT when you have a competent SMN even though that DRG is pretty competent also? Let's see, the competent SMN can heal (decently), raise, range dps and kite, do massive aoe dots to pressure the healer, heavy their opponent while you free cast on them. Now what other DPS can do anything remotely close to all of that? None, this is the world of MMO ladies and gents, it has not changed, if your main job/class pummels faces "too much" in the eyes of noobs and nooblets well we have more noobs and nooblets than competent players in any given MMO, it would be to your best interest to adapt to it lol.

So it's pretty much impossible to solo queue as ranged DPS as of 2.15

queue times are around ~20 min