I really don't want to moan about undercutting but....

There's always going to be a reason for undercutting. In most cases, folks want the time they spent crafting to translate into profit, and the more the better. So, generally, if it seems like there's a lot of folks selling for at or under the cost of manufacture, it means that either demand for the product has gone down (in which case folks are undercutting to unload stock - selling no profit or slight loss is better than not selling at all), or cost of manufacture has gone down (perhaps a new source has popped up for the materials). If this happens, you pretty much just have to accept the loss and lower your prices to match.

If there's NOT a lot of folks undercutting, just one guy, then it's not really anything to worry about. They may be trolling the market for giggles, or they came across more goods than they can handle and want to unload quickly, or they're altruists, or heck, maybe they felt they got screwed by crafters and are getting elaborite revenge by leveling a craft solely to flood the AH with cheap goods. Regardless, these folks are only temporary problems, and will go away eventually.

I fail to see how undercutting someone by 1 gil is "cheating". You obviously don't care about whether or not they make gil, so why should they care about "playing fair"? If it's common knowledge that the first item will be selected on a list sorted by price, even if it is 1 gil cheaper, then you would be a fool not to take advantage of it. Not to do so would be about the same as DPSing on a MNK without using any of your skills, and being upset that the DRG is outdpsing because he is "cheating" by using all the tools at his disposal, IE skills, when you chose not to.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

I fail to see how undercutting someone by 1 gil is "cheating". You obviously don't care about whether or not they make gil, so why should they care about "playing fair"? If it's common knowledge that the first item will be selected on a list sorted by price, even if it is 1 gil cheaper, then you would be a fool not to take advantage of it. Not to do so would be about the same as DPSing on a MNK without using any of your skills, and being upset that the DRG is outdpsing because he is "cheating" by using all the tools at his disposal, IE skills, when you chose not to.

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Actually, if the lowest price of an item is 9999, and there's a couple at 10,000....I'll always buy one of the 10,000 ones...

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Actually, if the lowest price of an item is 9999, and there's a couple at 10,000....I'll always buy one of the 10,000 ones...

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I don't understand why you would choose to spend more money than necessary. If it's about principal, I'm pretty sure no one is getting the point and just cares about their gil.

Undercutting is expected in a free market. Perhaps these other sellers gathered the mats themselves so they can theoretically go as low as you care to imagine. If you can't compete with that, then you have to ask yourself why you can't compete.

If the reason why is because you buy your materials, then consider farming them yourself. That's the only way to maximize the value of each and every crafted item. Even if it takes 2 days to farm all the materials, that is still pure profit. I know I'd much rather make 50k pure profit buy gathering, than perhaps making only 1 or 2 k because I bought all the mats.

If you don't have you DoL classes up to 50, consider doing it to make your DoH more competitive. I got all my DoL classes up to 50 in a week - they really arent that troublesome to level, and its only really necessary to use leves between 45-50, where the exp curve becomes too great.

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Originally Posted by Sparky

Undercutting is expected in a free market. Perhaps these other sellers gathered the mats themselves so they can theoretically go as low as you care to imagine. If you can't compete with that, then you have to ask yourself why you can't compete.

If the reason why is because you buy your materials, then consider farming them yourself. That's the only way to maximize the value of each and every crafted item. Even if it takes 2 days to farm all the materials, that is still pure profit. I know I'd much rather make 50k pure profit buy gathering, than perhaps making only 1 or 2 k because I bought all the mats.

If you don't have you DoL classes up to 50, consider doing it to make your DoH more competitive. I got all my DoL classes up to 50 in a week - they really arent that troublesome to level, and its only really necessary to use leves between 45-50, where the exp curve becomes too great.

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I understand what you're saying but if I had to farm the mats just to be competitive on the market then I'd just farm and sell the mats, it's easier. If for example the mats cost 10k, and the crafted item sells for 8k, why even bother with the crafting? it's just costing you money. The mats used in crafing all have their own value, it's not just about the finished item and just because you farmed them yourself doesn't reduce that value to 0. Of course farming the items will increase your profit from each individual sale but that profit is being generated purely by the gathering process, not by crafting. Why would you spend the time it takes to being able to HQ 2 star items from NQ mats (because if you need HQ mats and still sell for less than the NQ mats cost you must be crazy) only to make nothing from it? To get into this position I've had to get 4 level 50 crafts and several others at 15 as well as CUL to 37, then I've had to overmeld all my gear throwing large amounst of gil at it in the process, all so that if I make a Vanya robe my gathering earns me 49k while my Weaver earns me 1k, if I'm lucky. If I'm unlucky all of my profit comes from gathering/farming.

Gathering can also be a complete waste of time by the way, I put a value on my time so say for example in this game I say I can farm 20k an hour from my favourite farming spot. If it takes me an hour to gather lets say, flax and it's worth 4k a stack, why on earth would I waste my time actually gathering it? I'm better off farming my usual spot for an hour, buying a stack and pocketing the extra 16k.

This same argument keeps getting thrown about that if you farm you mats your crafting has a bigget profit margin, it's a complete fallacy but people can't seem to see it, it's like the Monte Carlo fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

It appeals to people because it seems to make sense, in reality it doesn't, it's a fallacy.

[QUOTE=Artemiz;1862041]This same argument keeps getting thrown about that if you farm you mats your crafting has a bigget profit margin, it's a complete fallacy but people can't seem to see it, it's like the Monte Carlo fallacy
[QUOTE]

I'd say it's closer in form to the Hard Work fallacy, the idea that there's more value in something the more work you put into accomplishing it.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ardWorkFallacy

In this case, it's also important to realize that transportation costs can be a big factor. Suppose I want to make Deviled Eggs, and want to farm my own mats. I teleport to Drybone to gather some mustard, then to Bloodshore to kill Apkallu for an egg and fish up a sardine, then teleport to Lower La Noscea to gather a lemon and parsley, and finally head to the Bismarck to buy Paprika (or if I absolutely must, teleport to Western La Noscea and harvest it instead). All those teleports cost 200-500 gil.

On the flip side of the coin, it's often difficult to buy JUST ONE of anything. Suppose, again, you want to make just one serving of Deviled Eggs. Good luck buying one egg, one lemon, etc - even when available, singles tend to sell for much more than multiples. If you DO buy multiples, you then have the added onus of selling the leftover mats back to the auction house or having them sit in your inventory indefinitely - both of these are a problem for me, as I constantly keep my retainers' auctions at 20/20, and my inventory is full to bursting.

It's a complex problem, and needs to be dealt with case-by-case. Sometimes, it's worthwhile to farm, sometimes it's worthwhile to buy.

Transportation costs are only an issue if you let it become an issue. I discovered when I was leveling my DoL after a 3 month hiatus with literally no gil, that it only takes 5 mins to ride from ul'dah to the shroud, and about the same to la noscea. It does take a small fee to get to la noscea - the 80 gil ferry from vesper bay, but if you can't cover 80 gil then theres something really wrong.

People undercut because they are economically stupid, impatient ,and immature. Really that's it.

They buyer's are also stupid. You shouldn't always look at the lowest, the lowest might actually be higher than one of the others depending on the city you're in and they're selling out of. And item selling for 9999 in LL, maybe actually be more expensive with tax if you're buying it in Uldah.

I disagree that people undercut because they are economically stupid. In fact, I think quite the opposite. It's exploiting the people who want goods immediately and cheaply. It's far from stupid on the sellers' parts.

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Originally Posted by Katchii

I don't understand why you would choose to spend more money than necessary. If it's about principal, I'm pretty sure no one is getting the point and just cares about their gil.

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I do similar. But I go a step further. I check to see which one has no tax on it so chances are if you are undercutting from a location I'm not buying from yours won't get picked. That tax is a gil sink and I rather see the gil circulate in the player base than to go into a black hole.

My biggest market pet peeve are people who sell HQ items for less than NQ? Why would you even do that?

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Originally Posted by CelestialFurry

My biggest market pet peeve are people who sell HQ items for less than NQ? Why would you even do that?

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There could be any number of reasons. For example, if the HQ items currently up aren't selling fast at all, you'll lower the price. If the NQ items are ALSO not selling well, you'll lower the price below those whether you're selling HQ or NQ. Do you have a full inventory and want to unload stock asap? You'll lower the price until you're sure it sells fast. Did SE just add new items that makes the things you're trying to sell obsolete? You'll lower the price to make sure you get at least a few gil before word gets around and the market collapses for that item. Those are just a few of many possible reasons.

Really, the only action that really puzzles me is when folks sell items at or below the NPC sell-price for the item. I mean, why waste the marketboard slot, when you can just unload the item onto an NPC instead?

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

What would you call selling Vanya Robes of healing for 47k, when the Potash alone is worth 36k?

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Thats more than what we get here on Sargatanas. All philo crafting items go for 1k if that. For the most part the items made stay around 40-60k. Depending on the class its for.

The fact is, these people are not selling the items less than cost. At least, not THEIR cost. They farm tomes rather than buy philo mats.

As well, if you buy Philo mats in bulk from a person(10+ at a time) you can usually get them to drop the price even more than Market board(which anyone shouting to sell mats is already selling lower than MB in the first place). Many people would take say 32-35K NOW, then wait to sell the other 2 mats to make a full 40K, just because it's convenient.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

I do similar. But I go a step further. I check to see which one has no tax on it so chances are if you are undercutting from a location I'm not buying from yours won't get picked. That tax is a gil sink and I rather see the gil circulate in the player base than to go into a black hole.

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All MB's are connected, it doesn't matter where you post it as it can be seen from any other town.

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Originally Posted by IAmPotent

All MB's are connected, it doesn't matter where you post it as it can be seen from any other town.

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Yes but you misunderstood. Players pay extra tax if they buy from a retainer not currently in the same city as you are. If something costs 10k and the retainer is in limsa while you are in gridania you would get something along the lines: 10250 gil(after tax) vs 10000gil(if both the retainer and the player are in the same city.

Not sure if this counts as a necro; thread is still on the top page, and I had something meaningful to add... sooooooooo... my apologies if I'm out of line.

IN DEFENSE OF REALLY BIG (greater than 5%) UNDERCUTS:
PROVING IT'S EFFECTIVENESS BY MATH!
(AKA: Making myself look like an asshole, and defending it with large profits)

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Originally Posted by Wilbow

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Originally Posted by Kakure

Pricing your item .002% lower than your competitor might look like undercutting, but it's not. That's selling the same thing for the same price, but doing it an underhanded way to ensure yours sells first. It does nothing to move the market toward equilibrium. It does not benefit buyers in any real way -- saving one gil on your Vanya Robe is like saving a fraction of a penny on a PS4. Rather than incentivizing efficiency, it encourages crafters to stand in front of the market board for hours constantly rejiggering their prices. It is the economic equivalent of elbowing your way to the front of the line.

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Oh, please try that. It's not like people with money won't, you know, buy your item for half price, re-post it, undercut by 5 gil anyways, and make a ton of cash. No wait, I will. Keep on doing that. [...] All you do is screw over yourself as the crafter and make the price of items vary wildly, never hitting equilibrium, making it impossible for anybody to ever know if they'll be able to afford something beforehand (or make a profit if they sell something).

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

It's simple, you go by percentages. On an item that sells for 50k+, undercutting by even 1k is meaningless. If you start undercutting by 5k or 10k, you discourage your competitors who are looking to undercut you in turn from doing so, as it would mean they would have to drop by the same amount.

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If you undercut ENOUGH and the market is hot enough, I'll simply buy and re-sell.

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Thank you Wilbow, players like you help me fistfuls of money in MMOs. Let me explain with an actual example from a few days ago. I'm relatively new to FF14 (but not to MMOs a genre), so I'm going to use a low level example, but it still gets the point across why players in MMOs re-selling my items makes me a bigger net profit than they make, despite them making a larger revenue.

Short answer: When I sell a 2000p item which costs 500p to craft for 1600p, and someone buys it to resell it at 2000p, I've already won. Because I made a 1000p profit (post-tax), and they are making only a 300p profit (post-tax). I've made triple what they'll make, and I literally created a buyer out of thin air, where there wasn't a buyer before. And the re-seller now has double the inventory they have to find buyers for. It's almost enough for me to feel sorry for them, but it's their decision to buy to re-sell from me; and they were not who I'm trying to sell to, re-sellers are just an added bonus on top of the players who are going to use the items themselves. When you buy to re-sell, you are effectively your own con-artist who is busy scamming yourself.


[LONG ANSWER (AKA THE REST OF THE POST)]:
I am currently leveling Armorer. I recently sold 4 Iron Kite Shields (A level 27 item) on the Market Board in less than 8 hours for 6400gross/4400net profit, with no HQ. Which, I think, is pretty healthy profit for such a low level, especially considering it only took me like, 5 minutes to craft and post them, and I needed to craft something anyway to level up Armorer, so I might as well make 50k+ net profit per hour of crafting, if I'm going to be crafting low level garbage anyway, it's not like it takes me more than a 5-10% increase in time to post the items on the Market Board instead of vendering them. (Forgive me if that sounds really low to a level 50 crafter, as I haven't gotten there yet, because I got the game a week ago, but just like any MMO, this principle should scale to work at any and all levels in this game, just like it does in every other MMO). But anyway, onto the explanation...


[MATH PART]:
Iron Ingots are used in my expense calculations below, as they are cheaper on my server's Market Board (55p) than crafting your own (13p shard + 18p iron ore from a vender * 3 iron ores = 67p). This took me about 30 seconds to figure out by checking the Market Board, and while it only made me an additional ~336p across these 4 transactions, it added up 4000p across all crafted iron ingot items I sold that 8 hours. Not only that, it cut the time it took me to craft the shields by over 50%, as I didn't have to craft the raw materials, only the finished product; a worthy investment of 30 seconds, as I basically doubled my gil per hour spent crafting, and exponentially increased my EXP per hour spent crafting, as I wasn't wasting time crafting low-EXP materials when I could be crafting high-EXP final products instead. (Gil per hour is a concept worth an entire 5000 character post explaining)

So the total cost of the materials is...
7 Iron Ingot = 55*7 = 385p
2 Earth Shards = 13*2 = 26p
7 Ice Shards = 91p
Total = 502p


[WHY WILBOW MAKES ME RICH]:
The going price for Iron Kite Shields on my server's Market Board currently is 2000p. I sold the four Iron Kite Shields for 1600p each, which is admittedly an insanely large 20% undercut, but it only cost me 500p in materials, and I'm still making over 1000p net profit, so that's okay. Of the ones I sold, 2 were bought and resold by another player. 2 were purchased by someone who used them. I made ~1000 profit per Iron Shield sold, for 4000 total. The person who tried to resell my items, still hasn't sold them 48 hours later, and even if he did he'd only make about 600-800p total profit, a fraction of what I made total. He may have made more revenue, but I not only made more profit, I also made it in less time and that's what ultimately counts. His reselling will ultimately net him about 50% profit per sale relative to the amount I made per sale, but, as I sold 4 within 8 hours, and he still hasn't sold his 2 within 48 hours later, I'm literally making over 24x as much Gold per Hour, even if his sold right fucking now.

24x more gold per hour, and I'm doing massive undercuts, in the 10-20% range, depending on the item. And that doesn't factor in the fact that I'm not just pushing Iron Kite Shields, but I'm also pushing dozens of other items. So in reality, I'm probably making over 100x the gold per hour that someone who is buying my items and re-selling them at a higher price would be making by reselling them. Thanks dudes like Wilbow! You totally account for about 50% of all my revenue. You guys rock <3


[EXPLANATION OF TECHNIQUE]:
This is what I call "Pricing to Move." It's dickish to other sellers, it makes buyers (not resellers) love me, and makes me obscene amounts of money. There's a lot of reasons it works well. A level 27 player might be unwilling to spend 1000p on an item that only gives them +1 Strength over their previous item. Give them a different item, that also only increases their strength by +1, but is selling for 1600p instead of 2000p, suddenly they will jump on the huge 20% sale. It's part of human psychology.

This is an economic trick that many real life companies (such as JC Penneys) use. People will buy something that has a large discount, even if it would cost them more than a cheaper item that they wouldn't be willing to buy because it isn't on sale. In layman's terms, with my large undercut sale-price, I was able to create a larger market for the items than there would've been otherwise, due to people purchasing them who probably would've just skipped it. And by creating a larger market, I achieved a greater net profit than I would've been selling to a smaller market at a higher margin.

And immediately after my items sold (which all sold within 12 hours), the price was back at 2000p, because either my items are selling too fast for anybody to undercut me by a penny, or nobody wants to undercut me at how low my prices were. So even with my insanely large undercut, I didn't cause the market to crash.


[40 ITEM LIMIT]:
To some extent, I consider this technique more important than ever in FF14, because you can only have 40 items for sale on the Market Board at the same time. I used to play WoW, and on average I would push around 2000 different sales on the Auction House at any one time, completing well over an average of 1000 sales per day (batch processing hooooo). Because of the 40 items restriction, I have to push items that much harder and faster, in order to still pull what I consider to be a reasonable profit. If I don't think I can sell the item within 8-12 hours, I'm not going to put it on the Market Board at that price. As my net profit is going to be tied not to the margin per item, but rather the speed I can get that 40 items to sell at, allowing me to post new batches multiple times in the same day.

And that's my argument in defense of large undercuts, that simultaneously makes me an asshole, which I can mathematically defend with large profits. You're welcome.


EDIT:
[DISCLAIMER]:
This doesn't mean undercutting by 5-20% is always the most ideal thing. This is for getting items to move that don't move easily, such as equipment. For things which move faster and easier, it's often better to overcut by 5-20%. Furthermore, the correct amount to overcut or undercut can change based on the day of week or even the time of day. There is no one-solution fits all thing. This post was just narrowly and specifically addressing certain situations in which deeply discounted undercuts can be the most profitable action. It does not address situations where overcutting is more profitable, or address gold per hour, or any of a number of different factors that can go into play towards creating the largest net profit, even if you aren't making the largest per-item revenue.

Karilyn your iron ingot math part example ignores one thing.

You can auto synth, getting EXPs for each synth, while you are AFK. 12 gil for several hundred EXPs isn't a bad deal at ore.... all.

I like how the rude-but-true marketmongers almost make my eyes bleed with all that edge.

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Originally Posted by Shadygrove

Karilyn your iron ingot math part example ignores one thing. You can auto synth, getting EXPs for each synth, while you are AFK. 12 gil for several hundred EXPs isn't a bad deal at ore.... all.

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Excellent point. I definitely was doing at at lower level crafts. After around level 25-30 or so, I just sorta, set up a macro, positioned the "Synthesis" directly above the macro on my hotbar, and clicked it every 30 seconds or so, and used the time to catch up on reading psychiatric medical journals, which I was going to do either way. Multi-tasking yo. If I set it up correctly, I'll still get the quality EXP bonus, without dividing my attention. Doing quick-synth and having to set it back up again every 99 synths I found to be a bit more distracting, as it would take me entirely out of my reading to set it up again (correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, 1 quicksynth takes about 3 seconds, which means a stack of 99 means I have to stop reading every 5 minutes to set it up again, which is too frequent a distraction for my tastes). Potentially useful for any students studying. Or not.

Then when I'm done reading, I just dump all the HQ mats into a guildleves, and craft up some HQ items with the NQ items and sell those.

Just like, for a Mythril Ingot, I'm looking at 2571 EXP for quick synth (with rested bonus), vs 7047 for a macro. Admittedly the macro takes about 10 times longer for 3x the exp, so it's about 1/3rd the exp-per-hour compared to just quicksything. But considering that 99 Mythril Ingots would cost about 3500*3+6500 = 17000g to craft, and I'd have to craft three times as many to get the same amount of EXP, it still comes out in my favor somewhat (Of course I could sell the Mythril Ingots for about 13000g per stack, meaning that if I only needed 99 Ingots, and just was quicksynthing for the same EXP, I'm only losing 8000g to get the same EXP in about 1/3rd the time if I sell the extra two stacks of 99 Ingots, which is a very reasonable and fair price). That being said, if I wanted to have to pay attention to my screen, a HQ Mythril Ingot guildleve would give a total of 86388+ ~11000EXP per craft = 97000 EXP per HQ ingot crafted. Which admittedly is slightly guildleve inefficiant, but insanely time-efficient compared to triple-turn-ins if you aren't suffering for a shortage of leves.

The best crafting/selling/leve choice is largely all situational depending on your degree of AFKness, and your desire for material, time, or leve allowance efficiency.

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Originally Posted by cotti

I like how the rude-but-true marketmongers almost make my eyes bleed with all that edge.

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My apologies, I didn't mean to come off as rude. All dat edge is mostly me just doing it for fun. I find the optimization to be engaging and exciting; I'm quite well aware that most people don't draw the same level of enjoyment from systematizing. Ultimately I encourage people to play the way they find most fun as opposed to following the techniques of others to get a competitive edge. It's just a game, not the Olympics. My post was ultimately about curing misconceptions, not prescribing a correct way to play.

After all, just writing these posts on the forum cuts into my gil per hour, but it doesn't really matter because I find doing the analytical writeups to be fun!

Anytime someone undercuts me by 1-5gil , I cut their price in half, cause yolo!!!

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

It's because of Crystal Tower. The demand for Vanya has dropped considerably.

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I'm actually kind of surprised by this. For Hands, Feet, and Legs, it makes sense - but considering that Crystal Tower is the next step up from Darklight, I would suspect there's a huge market for Body and Head. A mage with Darklight runs CT, and wins body or head - suddenly, they have an empty head or body slot they need to fill, and who knows how many weeks it will be until they fill it via CT? The obvious answer is Vanya.

My sister, who plays a BLM, is dealing with this very problem: Had Darklight Cowl of Casting, got Crimson Circlet and is now trying to save up the gil to buy a Vanya Robe of Casting.

It's the result of a free market. Do I want to ring the neck of every person who crafts 10+ of the same item and then undercuts by more than 15% ? Yes. That just means you find something else to craft until the next retard crashes in on your market.

As an example:
What I like is Player A wants an Aldgoat minion, Player B is capable of making it. Player A sells the esquiste button for 50k. Aldgoat minions on MB sell for say 45k. Player A does not want to pay more than 45k or even close to it. What?? That is some of the dumbest logic I have been seeing lately besides the undercutting of NQ's to sell 1 HQ. I am gaining the habit of sometimes picking up low ball HQ's and just relisting them for profit.

What I don't like is when players who don't want to craft or gather or both, complain about the prices of items others craft and gather. If you don't gather then don't complain. If you don't craft then don't complain.

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Originally Posted by Katchii

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Originally Posted by Lenarr

Actually, if the lowest price of an item is 9999, and there's a couple at 10,000....I'll always buy one of the 10,000 ones...

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I don't understand why you would choose to spend more money than necessary. If it's about principal, I'm pretty sure no one is getting the point and just cares about their gil.

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It's not about principal, it's about tax. Smart buyers look for that--if it's not undercut by the tax amount (and you're not in the right city) you're spending less money.

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Originally Posted by IAmPotent

The fact is, these people are not selling the items less than cost. At least, not THEIR cost. They farm tomes rather than buy philo mats.

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This is why some people should be glad that this is a virtual economy and not real-life money. If you're farming mats that sell for 36k (or buying them in bulk for 30k), you're better off selling them at 36k than selling a Vanya robe at 36k (even if it's just crystals, etc.), and you'll probably sell them faster.

Moreover, there's lost profit in not selling a Vanya Robe for 47k--no one is looking at that saying, "This robe isn't worth 47k!" They would have bought the lowest-price item regardless. Selling items at a hugely discounted price, contrary to common belief, does NOT make your items sell faster. If someone's going buy XXX, they'll buy the cheapest XXX, regardless of whether that XXX is 5% cheaper or 50% cheaper. You just cheated yourself out of profit. The alternative (tombstone farming) is a time investment. For some people there will be a breaking point where it's not "worth" spending some amount of gil when they could run a couple dungeons, but price would lower over time if nothing was selling. However, the issue here isn't that items are so outrageously priced that people won't buy them--it's just that people think someone will by their crap faster at half-price, when they won't.

I have been selling a lot of things on the markets for a long time. When I first started selling, I would set my price the same as the lowest listed price for that item. I still do that for people that I see are listing things at at the same price I am. It's simple courtesy. Unfortunately most people are determined to try to cut everyone else out, and I don't have a problem undercutting those people every time.

The thing that really makes me mad is when a person who has never sold a particular item before comes along and tries to cut me out of the market for something I have been selling for months by listing 20 of the same item and then continually undercutting me by 1000 at a time for an item that doesn't sell for over 10k to start with. They keep undercutting, and they get the items so low in price that you are making little or no profit, and it screws up the market for everyone. They think by doing that, that I won't want to lose money and it will drive me off, then they can hike the price. I am not that easily discouraged. I have plenty of gil to burn, and I will not be run off. If I lose money on something to teach them a lesson, so be it. Fair is fair.

I undercut by 1 gil. To get the spot, not to crash the market.
If someone undercut me, i will undercut him for the same amount he did.
If i loose some money on the process, so be it.

I undercut only if I have a lot less to sell of a particular item. For example, the going price of an item might be 500 gil and the smallest QTY is 10 and I only have 2. I might sell for 495 for that person looking for a one-time purchase. If they need more than my 2, they'll buy from the next one up. I noticed that some people don't pay attention to HQ. They will sell items for normal quality prices while the HQ might be several times the price. Then there's the person who takes the recommendation "Item sells for X gil". Next thing you know, there's a 1,000 gil item on sale for 10 gil. Does the AI not check pricing? Anyway, so that definitely affects the market. Of course, I'm sure there are those who scoop those low priced items up an sell them quickly at a much higher cost.

This is my personal philosophy on undercutting:

I play the "undercut by 1 gil" game until I can't take it anymore. I play regularly and actively adjust prices while I am playing. I WILL undercut you by 1 gil everytime (this is actually doing you, my competitors, a favor). Reason being, undercutting by 1 gil will sell next, because the majority of players want the cheapest goods, even if it is only by 1 gil. So if my item sells, I make a maximum profit. If you come along and undercut me by 1 gil and yours sells first, then you maximize your profit and mine is next in line to sell -- win-win sortof. With that being said, undercutting by 1 gil does not mess up the economy for that particular item; while, the "thinks he's smart" competitor that comes along and undercuts me, you, or the next guy for 30%, 50%, or even more, DOES. In that case, I will STILL play the "undercut by 1 gil" game until I see fit. If I am still being marginally undercut, then I will make my own marginal undercuts and put out the item for as little as I can, while still making a profit. If the "think he's smart" competitor still comes along and continues to undercut even at my drastically low price, I will buy his item and relist both his item and my item for their original going prices.

evianeverdeen -

I like how you think however I always go 10-50 gil under... but the problem is if you undercut someone by 1 gil and sell and made a lot of profit then realistically you will create another of the same item and do it again. (who wouldn't) but other crafters who see 5 of something sold that day yet they didn't get a sale because of the 1gil undercut kinda feel cheated. boohoo to them I say but I can see how it pisses people off.

in general -

any active crafter is undercutting, we have to otherwise what's the point.? we do it to generate gil for ourselves so we can speed up other processes in the game, like materia melding finishing our craft logs.. buying large houses and furniture for them too... not to mention dropping 300k on a room in that house just because we have so much spare gil.

and why shouldn't we. we put all that time into levelling our crafting skills to the top tier and what are we are supposed to play fair on sales.?? that makes no sense to me and so yeah I will continue to undercut on every item that I have a competitor on. I will also list items at whatever price I think I can get (although I usually try to keep it at a range that I will get a sale), and no I don't run to the mb every 5mins to check prices (well not now I bought mansion for the fc) but I will check multiple times each day and adjust accordingly just like every other active crafter does.

I see the same crafter names all the time on the goods I sell and they undercut me... some aggressively and I think in time they all realize that none of us are going to quit, least of all me until I'm good and ready. and so prices stay in a good profit range usually. I don't expect them to stop (even if I wish they did) and I don't think they expect me to stop. we all get sales and things continue to flow. to me even with undercutting from everyone the process seems to be working. its just part of being a crafter and using the mb.

heres the thing. no matter your gc, your name, or if you were the first to put the item up or not, it doesn't matter. its completely random as to who's item goes in front of the other if the price is the same. it may not be random actually, maybe its free company name or something weird like that, its definitely not alphabetical character name.

i looked into this a lot, because the thing is, say i put my item up for 200k. another guy comes in and puts his up for 200k. his goes to the top of the list for whatever reason. so his sells first. mine stays on mb. he crafts another, and his goes in front yet again. is that fair to me at all? so basically i just have to hope that 2 people buy the item within a short time period, or i get screwed.

nah, the system forces you to undercut if you want to make money. i would prefer it to be a blind auction. you can see what the last one sold for, but you can't see the current prices by other sellers. that would solve all the undercutting bs.

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Originally Posted by Kimura410

i looked into this a lot, because the thing is, say i put my item up for 200k. another guy comes in and puts his up for 200k. his goes to the top of the list for whatever reason. so his sells first. mine stays on mb.

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I'm pretty sure it has to do with the amount in the stack. If we both put up an item for 200k each for a single item. Whoever put it up first goes to the top. However if i put up a stack of 2 for 200k. My items will be above yours because i'm selling in bulk.

that may be true, but hell earlier today i noticed it. i had my robe up first, some guy puts his up, same quantity, and hes in front. so whether it goes by fc, gc, quantity, w/e, that same guy can keep crafting a new one every time it sells, and if i dont undercut, he will make millions while my original one just sits. thats the reason that i undercut. and i do so by one gil, not out of spite, but bc i want to keep the price up. i feel like thats the respectable way to do it. ill probably be called out for trying to justify it, but thats really what i am trying to do. its the only fair way to do things imo. when people undercut by 50k, or 200k, or w/e, its a kick in the nuts. its like, hey you couldve, made 200k extra on this, but im not going to let you. but then again, sometimes ppl do that to attract customers with a "deal". nothing wrong with undercutting, companies have been doing it for years irl.

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Originally Posted by Kimura410

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I believe Retainer name also has something to do with it as well, as ive seen this played out before as well.

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Originally Posted by Kakure

Sometimes I sell crafted items for little or no profit to spite people who insist on selling their items for one gil less than mine.

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Same here!

from my experience on advertising items on mb.

there is not a set pattern. it seem it takes all those things mentioned in previous posts into account but then just does what it wants.

I've tried switching an item from one retainer to another and nothing, I've looked at all alphabetical orders and it still does what it wants.

if you want to be first you have to be cheapest or have biggest stack at same price as cheapest.

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Originally Posted by chidarake

from my experience on advertising items on mb.

there is not a set pattern. it seem it takes all those things mentioned in previous posts into account but then just does what it wants.

I've tried switching an item from one retainer to another and nothing, I've looked at all alphabetical orders and it still does what it wants.

if you want to be first you have to be cheapest or have biggest stack at same price as cheapest.

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exactly. I've tested different variables to avoid undercutting, bot honestly, if it was by retainer and you chose to sell from one retainer bc it gets you in front, isn't it the same damn thing as undercutting? id say so. but yea, seems to be random. the people who hate undercutting need to make a petition for blind auctions. i wouldn't mind it myself tbh, but don't really care if i get undercut.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kimura410

heres the thing. no matter your gc, your name, or if you were the first to put the item up or not, it doesn't matter. its completely random as to who's item goes in front of the other if the price is the same. it may not be random actually, maybe its free company name or something weird like that, its definitely not alphabetical character name.

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IME/observation, when items are at the same price, the item that was put up for sale LAST gets listed first.

Retainer A sells 1000, list = A
Retainer B sells 1000, list = BA
Retainer A adjusts to 999, list = AB
Retainer B adjusts to 998, list = BA
Retainer A adjusts to 998, list = BA

Therefore, if you see 5 items listing at the same price as yours, you need to undercut by 1 gil to move to first.

jc