Paladin - the lack of identity

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

You know it would be awesome if Shield Swipe wasn't a complete waste of TP and pacification actually worked on any boss. I mean hell if you don't want to let pacification work on a boss, CHANGE IT TO SOME OTHER DEBUFF.

Furthermore, It is really confusing in this game sometimes to be able to deduce the differences between a stun and a silence, For example, why do stuns work on some magical abilities where as silence against that same ability not work and vice versa.

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Shield swipe is fine, I would like it scale with shield strength though. And 210 potency for 40 TP is not a waste by any means. And some bosses CAN be pacified (Pharos first boss, Ifrit). Pacified enemies will "queue" up any skill that they would have used in the meantime, so after the 6 seconds is up, a cast usually begins, so you have enough time to prime a shield bash. Voila 12 seconds of nothing out of the boss.

Also, stun and silence is very clear. Stun does everything...the enemy is STUNNED. Silence does spells only because you need to TALK to cast a spell.

How do I Pally?

I think adding in more combos and alternative melee skills as well as adding in more spells to utilize the Gld/Pld MP pool is something for the future of the class.

I believe SE was in a rush to really get this game going again and thus may have overlooked certain aspects and abilites for jobs.

We'll have to see when they add more stuff to the current roster of classes.

it would be nice that all the boss worth mention were not 100% immune to all kind of CC because SE is lazy

Would be nice if they gave paladin some spells on a serious note (banish, holy, reprisal, etc)

and yo where are all the cool looking weapons skills... Rage of halone gets pretty old after using it 99bajilion times

I believe PLD would benefit from more MP requiring skills. WAR basically relies on TP extra skills and Wrath requiring abilities so TP management and proper use of their Wrath constitutes their difficulty and skill checks. PLD currently has one MP requiring ability gained from it's base class (flash) and most PLD have Stoneskin; PLD also have access to cure, but without any str/vit modifying traits, it's practically useless for us and I assume SE desires for War to be the primary "regen" tank. While PLD seems to be the mitigate (warding/damage block) Tank.

With this in mind, I believe Aegis Boon would make a wonderful re-addition to PLD. But instead of completely being a free 100% damage block, it would consume (damage taken/3) in MP when used. So if I'm fighting Twintania and I'm caught without a cooldown and that nasty death sentence is coming, I could pop this ability. She deals 4,500 raw damage; I happen to have 1,490 MP at the time (as almost all pld do). This would consume a total of 1,500 MP, causing me to take ~30 damage and completely consuming all my MP. I then need to use my riot blade combo more often now to recover my MP so that this ability is useful again while still maintaining the Halone debuff and maintaining enmity. And if I were near dead to begin with, I believe this justifies me using all my MP to save myself. This may or may not need a GCD, or perhaps give it some kind of diminishing return, where it drops to 1/2 MP usage --> 1/1 MP usage with a reset per minute. This kind of ability it would certainly make PLD's MP more valuable and give the riot blade combo more love.

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Originally Posted by Hoshikogi

Aegis Boon

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This kind of ability would be insanely OP. They just had a balance of the tanks because PLD was too strong, and you want to give them ANOTHER ignore huge amounts of damage button?

all fine and good but ur talking a rediculous amount of mitigation there

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Originally Posted by Royze

With regards to Lore and whatnot, If SE have made a Knight Job and just translated it into English as Paladin, that is even worse!
However, I don't think this is the case.

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Since you did not read;

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Originally Posted by Exstal

http://i.imgur.com/jlfFfwJ.png

剣術士 lit Sword art profession (Sword fighter? Gladiator in EN)　
斧術士 lit Axe art profession (Axe fighter? Marauder in EN)
ナイト lit Knight (Paladin in EN)
戦士 lit War profession (Soldier? Warrior in EN)

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From FFIV, Cecil was pretty bad with his Cure. I think the paladins resemble Cecil a lot, more useful for taking damage than they are at casting white magic.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

From FFIV, Cecil was pretty bad with his Cure. I think the paladins resemble Cecil a lot, more useful for taking damage than they are at casting white magic.

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then why we got white magic in the 1 place ? :S

pld crossclass skills sucks ....w/o traits nearly all of them are worthless

Paladin's had some fun skills in 1.0.

Along with another combo I do believe it got from Gladiator: Goring Blade. It was an attack from behind, and had a really cool animation that I don't see used in 2.0. It was a somersault sword slash. Looked really killer. I always wondered why they took the combo away. I guess for balance changes, but it would be cool for Paladin to have a combo that adds some utility.

Along with that they had helpful healing potential. Holy Succor was an ability that either healed you, or if you cast it on a party member, it would heal you also for half the healing done. It was a way to maintain emnity.

I also question the path Paladin took for 2.0. I'm having fun, but some of the abilities lost seem like they could have been tweaked for 2.0.

stone skin is pretty useful.

I happen to have fun with 123, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Syhrwyb

I happen to have fun with 123, thank you very much.

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There are kids who get put into Advanced Placement classes, others who remain in standard classes, and then there are those who drink the glue and get sent to special ed.

..could make Cure1 be off the GCD whilst enabling to continue Pld's combos.

Same cast time, just a "reason" to use our mp other than flash.

I'd find it kind of cool to have one additional combo that had either a 15% chance of afflicting a debuff that lasted 3 seconds (decreased defense, offense, magic defense, magic offense or slow) or a 15% chance of effecting a buff for 5 seconds (increased defense, offense, magic defense, fast or even 150 HP [one shot, doesn't stay for 5 seconds]), and that last attack on the combo uses 200 MP.

The above debuffs/buffs aren't major game changers, but add a quality to PLD as an OT/MT and adds a slight mechanic to the normal ball room dance every equates it to. 3 seconds for debuff means the DPS only get one shot of attacking with the debuff in place. The buff in place means it will last one hit, maybe two if it lands at the exact right time. This skill also adds an interesting twist to PvP, again making the tank a little easier to use there, but not adding astronomical changes.

The changes would be enough that PLD could be a little more strategical and some more mechanics, but not making it a combined WAR/PLD.

I'd personally like to see a damage dealing attack added onto the end of the Riot Blade combo - Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Blade of Light/Holy Sword (or something like that) which consumes MP to use and deals magical holy damage. The cost would outweigh the MP replenishment from Riot Blade, but at least it would give an OT Paladin another attack to use to maximise their DPS without risking stealing aggro while spamming the Rage of Halone combo.

For those who haven't seen it, SE confirmed there is a bug where if you go directly from shield to sword oath you retain the shield oath enmity. This has prevented us from using ROH while OT'ing since we would pull hate (as we'd do more damage and have more enmity).

To avoid this manually cancel shield, the enter sword. You can now freely spam ROH without pulling hate. (Unless the MT is full time helmet wearing level bad).

I think this is what SE intended and why they didn't give us a second 3 step combo. They figured we'd just use ROH while in sword.

Plds really should have a second OT rotation that is "holy" themed. Maybe something similar to storms eye. If Plds get anything like storms path I would rejoice but every War tank would be furious.

The main change I want asap is for plds to either buff/edit Foresight/Awareness or get better cross class abilities. Asides from stoneskin they pretty much don't benefit much from their current cross class abilities. Fracture/Mercy Stroke/Skull Sunder/Bloodbath are laughably poor cross class abilities compared to what other classes have access to.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

2. Paladin healing has to be significantly worse than an actual healer. What is the point of having a healer if your tank can heal?

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With our limited MP pool, we would never take the job of a dedicated healer. Even as OT.

Aside form the cool looking flashy armor, Paladins feel like ''guy with a shield'' rather than a paladin.

Second combo: Riot Blade combos into a 5 second buff that mitigates 10% damage received from target. We're already brick walls, why not just keep the trend going.

Part of me would like a stronger heal, but with the sheer amount of damage we absorb I don't really find it necessary. I like being a big stalwart immovable mountain of a man. Plus me and another pld friends of mine take turns going MT/OT in dungeons and boss fights. We have a blast together. We're building totally different specs, so it's a fun competition we have with each other.

I like pld as is but since tweaks are welcome

There are a lot of changes that could be made to make pally more fun, the obvious being a third move after riot.
Other improvements not just for pally but for all jobs would be:
1) in addition to the 5 skills a job gets, it also gets traits related to its cross classes (not all, just ages from each, or possibly even a choice to take from one or the other, a GC item could reset this choice similar to the stat item)

2) when you take a job you lose flexibility from your cross. Lass choice and only have 5 cross class skills. I think the game is too tight with what is available for cross class. While the current selection is fine for generic use, once you get a job and 'specialise' with only 2 classes to cross class, more of the spells should open up (for example, perhaps cure 2 is a pally cross class but not gladiator, perhaps sentinel is a war cross class but not marauder)

The cross cladding is a great concept, but in its current form very underwhelming

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Originally Posted by Royze

Moving along, this thread is about PLD and the aspects of it that are missing.
Traditionally, PLDs have always been noble and righteous Knights that wear heavy armor with high resilience and fortitude AS WELL
utilized white magic to their advantage.

In FF XIV - PLD is feels pretty heavy sided on the "Fortitude, Armor, Resilience" and pretty bare and lacking on the "Magic".

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Historically, FF Paladins have had weak magic and XIV's PLD reflects this to a T. Our cures are not and should not be on par with healers', because healing should be left to them. We can help raise people after a fight. We have access to Protect. We even have Stoneskin as an option.

We're not Warhammer Warrior Priests or Warcraft Paladins, both of whom are focused on holy power and martial prowess. FF Paladins are called "Knights" in the Japanese version of the game for a reason.

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I'm not saying it is not efficient or gimp. Its fine. Its just booooring. Please look into adding Magic and some melee that makes this job more interesting.

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The bolded word has ruined classes in the past because then you start adding stuff not because the class needs it to improve or to achieve better balance, but because some individuals feel better pushing more buttons than others. That ends up pissing off people like me, who prefer straight-forward gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

*snip*.

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Did you play XI or XIV 1.0?
Its true Paladins shouldn't be able to compete with healers, but there is about a hundred miles gap between current PLD prowess with White magic and that of WHMs and SCHs. This, paired with the fact that Cover and Tempered will are absolute garbage only amplifies the current lame horse PLD is play-wise. Its a boring job.

There is a lot of middle ground to explore. As it stands right now, PLD has cross class abilities from CNJ that are redundant, useless and worthless. They bring nothing to the table. Stoneskin being the only exception.

I'd settle with just Reprisal and Enlight. These should have been available at max 50.

Also, GLA, as I stated earlier, due to access to more CCA is more of a PLD than PLD is.

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Originally Posted by Royze

Did you play XI or XIV 1.0?

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Yes. And I abhorred Holy Succor. Self heals in XI felt clunky and as unnatural as an aggro-generation method the players had to invent because the devs couldn't bother to fix the job, enmity and the ton of other problems XI's PLD had.

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Its true Paladins shouldn't be able to compete with healers, but there is about a hundred miles gap between current PLD prowess with White magic and that of WHMs and SCHs.

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As I've already said, Paladins in Final Fantasy have weak white magic. This is par for the course with their concept. It also fits the fact that they're Knights to the Japanese.

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This, paired with the fact that Cover and Tempered will are absolute garbage only amplifies the current lame horse PLD is play-wise. Its a boring job.

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Cover and Tempered Will aside, PLD is a solidly-designed and straightforward tank job. If you find that boring, that's your business.

Cover's problem is its short duration and would probably be more useful if it was changed to be like a minimal damage mitigation buff for one party member. Tempered Will may have limited utility in PvE, but knockback prevention and the root break makes it useful in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Well your despise for Holy Succor I assume is derived from the fact using it effectively requires you to look outside your self to gain the maximum benefit which is understandable it is a different playstyle for that ability. But what I believe should be brought back which would really give a paladin some identity in its own right is Divine Veil. Well no so much the specific move but the mechanic of enhancing other party members abilities by them doing their primary function. So Divine Veil made all cures aoe regen, but that could be adjusted for spells and effects in general, for instance stoneskin, galavize, mantra, eye for an eye would be be massively overpowered but you understand my meaning it spreads limited AOE effects directly to party members. While it won't make the class itself less boring to those that think it is it would make it more special with out forcing mechanical changes and could be balanced easier.

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Originally Posted by Sakasa

Well your despise for Holy Succor I assume is derived from the fact using it effectively requires you to look outside your self to gain the maximum benefit which is understandable it is a different playstyle for that ability.

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More the fact that it was a healer mechanic that was shoehorned into the framework of a tank. It was basically Beacon of Light from WoW and WHM should have gotten that.

you just started a thread where half the people are asking for more mitigation. good job.

but seriously. I think adding a damage focused combo thats only available while in sword oath would make more sense. well... I doesn't solve the 123 repeat but at least pld's can do something as off tank.

There wouldn't be a problem with letting a PLD have a decent cure if WAR was given its good IB back(keep the trait it got too). They could also allow you to battle raise since the chances of you getting one off are slim and in dungeons its better to just respawn anyways unless its turn 2 and you can't. Overall though I think both tanks need some tweaking to be a tad more overpowered than they are now. Too many people think tanking is easy or boring, if they let them cut into the dps/healer roles a little more that could change. Just saying that tanks should feel more like a tank rather than a bunker that need to be constantly repaired.

The healing needs a slight buff. Can't seem to keep decent heals on my character

Sorry I can't help it but be "Capitan Obvious" after reading some of the post in this thread.

Ever since warrior received well deserved rebalance, You all pallys want to have Major buffs on mitigation, dmg, debuffs skill, increase receive healing to stay on top of the Tank class.
From the way I see it, its a bait to cry out more buffs.

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Originally Posted by Rockaholic

Sorry I can't help it but be "Capitan Obvious" after reading some of the post in this thread.

Ever since warrior received well deserved rebalance, You all pallys want to have Major buffs on mitigation, dmg, debuffs skill, increase receive healing to stay on top of the Tank class.
From the way I see it, its a bait to cry out more buffs.

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Some have hijacked this thread to express what you're saying. However, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, this is not a "buff pld" thread. I actually have i88 WAR and it was my first job in 1.0, and my first job in 2.0.

This thread is about how PLD isn't PLD.

While it does sound like its a "buff pld thread" but like Royze said PLD's just doesn't FEEL like PLD. Anything that would buff PLD to put it above WAR should also result in an appropriate buff for WAR as well. WAR may now be a PLD level tank but despite being the "standard" many people feel that PLD were still lacking and or boring. It isn't about being better than WAR it is about being better period, and if that means buffs to both everyone wins.

No more buffs. This game is already stupid easy.

Paladin feels as much a Paladin to me as Dragoon, Monk, and Black Mage in this game feel like Dragoons, Monks, and Black Mages. Take that as positive or negative as you like, but it seems par for the course. I wouldn't mind seeing some alternate toolsets within the Paladin build, perhaps even something that is not 'just' a tank, even if it will spend the majority of its time tanking, but at the same time not a replacement for actual 'healers' or 'dps'. (Can deal damage, but is not a 'dps', can heal/mitigate-on-others, but is not a 'healer'.) But at that point Monks may as well be using Chakra bomb builds and Summoners would likely have real Evoker options... It's likely a good action-bar away or more, especially if there are still few underlying mechanics by which to add dynamics to our abilities (requiring a much larger count of particular moves).

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Originally Posted by Royze

This thread is about how PLD isn't PLD.

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Knight in shining armor. Uses a sword and a shield. Has access to weak white magic. Has Cover.

It's very much a PLD/Knight/ナイト and feels like one.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Knight in shining armor. Uses a sword and a shield. Has access to weak white magic. Has Cover.

It's very much a PLD/Knight/ナイト and feels like one.

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You keep describing what he has access to while people are complaining of how he actually feels in play. Its nice that he has "access" to weak white magic but its not used and thus doesn't "feel" like a pld in game play. The other holy-ish like abilities that pld does use regularly in his rotation (circle of scorn, spirits within) don't "feel" very white magic like. The entire argument is about how he plays not what the description of what the pld is which you keep bringing up.

Only thing i want paladin to have, is for flash to have it's own cooldown.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

Only thing i want paladin to have, is for flash to have it's own cooldown.

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I would *LOVE* this!

Don't really want no changes. Its the only class in the game that has well thought out skills.