Extreme Garuda MELEE Woes

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Slipstream>Friction>Downburst>Wicked Wheel, if I remember correctly

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Thank you. For all melee scared to get hit by Wicked Wheel, just move back when you see Garuda cast Downburst, then back after they Wicked Wheel. /win

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Originally Posted by Traek

There is multiple ways to do this fight without melee getting hit by double wicked wheel at all. It is sad on multiple levels people can't think outside the box once they see a guide/method that lets them apply their face to the keyboard and roll around. It is really telling of all parties that this is happening, and I hope people start spreading *correct methods* of doing Garuda EX rather then just take the no brain method and exclude members.

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Thing is you can still do it with those faceroll methods as well, just have to have people dodge WW.

However this is also true, if one strategy doesn't fit your group, then try new ones (or other ones already invented, or reinvent them yourself). Don't feel stuck because you can't do it ni the exact same way some other group does it.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The last few times I tried (as DRG) OT pulled Suprana away from Garuda (after downing Chirada), I was fully expecting WW but never saw it, this was at least 3 or 4 times in a row we tried it, and I didn't see it once. I don't know if it's random, or has to do with their relative distance from the other, all I know was I kept moving back to the center to avoid it and it never happened.

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Maybe because they are apart? Sisters also die fast. (asuming you're saying they got split on the last phase as well) But this just proves how by slightly changing strategy it is also doable and even maybe easier on other roles.

I'll be trying this fight tonight as I've stayed away from it due to the issues with DF and PF groups and this whole Melee situation. I built my FC around people having fun playing the classes they want to play.

At the moment we have 2 coil groups running T1-4 and guess what? We don't have 2 bards! It's funny how when we occasionally need to find a replacement for a member on a day we always get the "Oh, 1 bard/No bards?" response.

All of these fights are perfectly doable for melee the problem really lies in lazy healers or lazy melee that won't dodge or learn when to dodge.

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

Thing is you can still do it with those faceroll methods as well, just have to have people dodge WW.

However this is also true, if one strategy doesn't fit your group, then try new ones (or other ones already invented, or reinvent them yourself). Don't feel stuck because you can't do it ni the exact same way some other group does it.

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Yep, exactly. It is funny because with my coil group, we watched videos our first time through to have an idea, but we almost always did it differently then a guide's way, or our other Coil group's way. We thought about our group dynamic and made tweaks/priorities based on that to where we now snooze through it.

I agree that you are saying melee can dodge wicked wheel with some forethought, but if they are having to do this then the party is using the wrong strategy from the get go.

I'm so confused, I have literally never seen the sisters do WW or been hit by it myself (it has been close when the tank doesn't pull Suparnia far enough away). Just separate the sisters from Garuda before attacking...

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

I'm so confused, I have literally never seen the sisters do WW or been hit by it myself (it has been close when the tank doesn't pull Suparnia far enough away). Just separate the sisters from Garuda before attacking...

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You've "literally never seen" WW, but you have been "close" to getting hit by it?

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Originally Posted by Mitski

You've "literally never seen" WW, but you have been "close" to getting hit by it?

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Garuda still cast's Wicked Wheel until Suparna has died so he can not see either of the sisters do it but still have to dodge it from Garuda.

Suparna casts Wicked Wheel only while Chirada is still alive. Killing Chirada first and then pulling Suparna off the MT means melee will literally never see a Wicked Wheel. I'm pretty sure this is the strategy that SE designed for the fight, people are just lazy and don't want to do the fight that way or don't know/understand the actual mechanics of the encounter.

You guys are giving nice pointers but the fact is the fight is far easier with ranged stacking, and that is an issue. We always Virus the add and Eye for an Eye the tank along with SS and Adlo on the melee and a Scholar bubble when we're expecting Wicked Wheel and they can just stay in, but good luck coordinating that with a DF group

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Originally Posted by Ricky

You guys are giving nice pointers but the fact is the fight is far easier with ranged stacking, and that is an issue. We always Virus the add and Eye for an Eye the tank along with SS and Adlo on the melee and a Scholar bubble when we're expecting Wicked Wheel and they can just stay in, but good luck coordinating that with a DF group

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This is the point, it really isn't easier with ranged, people just aren't doing the fight properly. It was said a few comments up, but killing Chirada, then cross voking Suprana while MT vokes Spiny Plume guarantees no melee gets hit by wicked wheel. There is roughly 3-4 seconds downtime as Suprana crosses the Tornados and it is business like usual, except for ranged it is still business like usual the whole crossing.

Without the OT voking Suprana from the MT, they are actually making life harder on the healers, and risking MT going down from x2 Wicked Wheel. The fight was clearly designed this way, as Suprana doesn't do Wicked Wheel when I pull it across.

The melee's I take to GX do fine. WW is pretty predictable. Why are people so afraid to have melees?

I find it hysterical that people honestly believe a fight is "impossible" with melee. My raid group generally has two melee and it's never held us back. We have one of our melee (usually our MNK, but sometimes it's our DRG) tank Chirada while they burn it down. All the dps stack for Downburst to minimize damage there. Then everyone goes to Suparna, who's being tanked by the OT. Then Garuda. Never an issue.

when you need range only DPS just means you fail. just like people require lv80+ for hardmode in partyfinder all i can say is get the F out of here with that BS. learn the fight people quit lying about it just to scam wins.

I honestly think it's an issue on the games side as opposed to an issue with the players. While melee DPS may be able to burn down bosses faster and deal more damage with our LB, we are over looked because we run a vastly higher risk of dying. They've tried to fix this with things like Ifrit's eruption (and other abilities of the like) but generally it's safer for ranged DPS (generally).

A couple things could be done to fix this. Obviously getting more gear (higher gear = higher stats = higher DPS and HP and DEF/M.DEF) will help with the fight. Getting more practice (obviously essential). Possibly another tweak to the way that melee DPS works; something like another DPS bump (raw +% of basic damage or adjusting the way the STR scales with our damage) or maybe go down the D3 route where melee DPS gets an innate +% DEF/M.DEF to counter the fact that we can't kite/move away from things and usually just take stuff on the chin.

Time will tell.

Look not saying the fight is hard by taking melee I do take my free company and ls mates I trust I just don't trust pug melee to be competent stacking rng makes the fight face roll easy

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Originally Posted by indira

when you need range only DPS just means you fail. just like people require lv80+ for hardmode in partyfinder all i can say is get the F out of here with that BS. learn the fight people quit lying about it just to scam wins.

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People just like the fight being ezmode. Having no melee means you have less of a chance of getting sir derpsalot who gets wicked wheeled. Having all ranged allows them to stay away from all the sisters and unable to be one shot.

I have only won ONCE with a 2 group line split. The majority of the failures are MT getting roflpwned by Garuda + sister, or Spiny explodes because MT is too busy.
MT sucks? Maybe. But why add more obstacles, and stress to the healer and MT?

I have tanked Chirada as a monk, and I have never seen WW AT ALL.
Either Chirada does not use it or her skill rotation is different from Suprarna so she always dies before WW. (Taking too long you won't have time to kill Suprana anyways)
Downburst damage is SPLIT BETWEEN ALL WHO ARE HIT, and Chirada PAINTS A HUGE RETICULE for ppl to rush in and SPLIT the damage. This is not even Grade 3 Math.
If split by 4 DPS it is easily healed with one or two Medica.
After Chirada dies, DRG and MNK have movement abilities if you are afraid of the tornadoes. USE THEM.

Ppl who think all range is the best either never tried triangular setup, or are genuinely retarded or lazy or too chicken to learn the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by RhaesDaenys

Please for the love of god fix this.

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What do you expect SE to fix? The people who play their game?

You can avoid the AOE with timing and position, or you can have the off-tank pull red away from the MT once green is dead, or you can split the sisters 3-ways with a melee tanking. The latter two methods also take a lot of pressure off the MT and healers as you dont need to worry about double wicked wheel.

I've had many successful farm groups with multiple melee.

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Originally Posted by UNSF

Ppl who think all range is the best either never tried triangular setup, or are genuinely retarded or lazy or too chicken to learn the mechanics.

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Bingo, they learn a method from a video but never try to reverse engineer the methods.

I've been saying this a lot, but youtube guides are a terrible influence on players. MrHappy's strats I feel are quite often flawed and make fights harder than it has to be, but he is so damn popular people are just going to follow them like lemmings and blame SE when it is composition dependent. It is not SE's fault, it is the fault of the strat you use and you personally for thinking there is only one way to do a fight.

Guides can disclaim all they want that there are other methods but people aren't watching a video to think critically about a fight they're there to learn it like a cake recipe.

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

(btw this is not a personal attack, just continued from what you said to expand on the myth that it's harder for melee than ranged, different does not imply harder)

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Ya it's not always true but it's the usual situation (is what I said earlier). I do find it hard to think of situations where casters have a tougher job than melee though. Maybe in the few bosses that ultilizes mechanics which shoot red aoes at range players but even then, they're easily dodgeable. Titan EX, it's not hard for either caster or melee, it's more, this fight is more melee friendly so melee can shine more. I guess plumes interrupt casters more often so they have slight reduce DPS a bit but it has nothing to do with their personal survivability.

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Originally Posted by zdub303

Garuda still cast's Wicked Wheel until Suparna has died so he can not see either of the sisters do it but still have to dodge it from Garuda.

Suparna casts Wicked Wheel only while Chirada is still alive. Killing Chirada first and then pulling Suparna off the MT means melee will literally never see a Wicked Wheel. I'm pretty sure this is the strategy that SE designed for the fight, people are just lazy and don't want to do the fight that way or don't know/understand the actual mechanics of the encounter.

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This.

I honestly think Wicked Wheels from the sisters is SE's way of saying "you're doing it wrong". If you kill Chirada first and pull Suparna away from Garuda she doesn't do WW, after Friction she uses Slipstream instead.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

You've "literally never seen" WW, but you have been "close" to getting hit by it?

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Garuda's WW. In the first of the sister phases when I run around and go to hit Suparnia if the OT doesn't pull her far enough away fast enough Garuda's WW comes very close during my back rotation.

I have not yet seen OTs voking suprana off. Wouldnt that possibly create problems with spiny plume and the 40s CD of provoke?
Also what happens if the spiny plume goes for the MT first?

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

I have not yet seen OTs voking suprana off. Wouldnt that possibly create problems with spiny plume and the 40s CD of provoke?
Also what happens if the spiny plume goes for the MT first?

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I really, really, really recommend having the OT tank Suparna from the start and make a dps tank Chirada, with all dps stacking for Downburst. Then you don't have to worry about wasted taunts for spiny plume, nor Wicked Wheel hitting dps (as Suparna doesn't WW once Chirada is down). This makes things so much easier. D:

I've done Garuda 3 different ways:

Pure Melee Party
We pull the Red Line add instead of the Green Line add, so that we can DPS it down quickly and eliminate Whicked Wheel from the equation. It's very easy, very simple to do, though a lot of people dislike it because it makes the fight take a bit longer (Due to Garuda's regenerated HP.)

Hybrid Melee/Ranged Party
Both melee went on the off-tank's add (Green line), and both mages went on Main Tank's add (Red line.) This allowed the two to be downed at the same time. Slightly more intensive on the healers, but still very doable

Myself as the lone melee
fought as normal. only jump in once you see Wicked Wheel. If the maintank is tanking in any extreme direction (All the way back, or all the way close to the twister), run to the opposite end in anticipation of Whicked Wheels, or just escape away when you see them casting Friction. There's enough time to get some movement going that you shouldnt' be getting hit. Mitigation CD's like Keener Flurry can help keep you alive, be ready to use them.

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The fight is just like Titan Hard Mode. You learn the cycles. You learn the rotations. You learn what skills look like and what they mean. I kind of enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Problem with Party Finder for content is everyone wants only over geared players that know the fight. It's like fail safe only.

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lol geared and exp'd, i seen too many people that claim that and watch them die to the stupidest mechanics, standing in front of the dragons and behemoth in CT, even watched a bard go in front of cad on turn 1 and get hit by the cleave..........people need to learn what some of these words mean

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

I have not yet seen OTs voking suprana off. Wouldnt that possibly create problems with spiny plume and the 40s CD of provoke?
Also what happens if the spiny plume goes for the MT first?

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OT Provokes Spiny the moment it appears, then MT Provokes Spiny, OT Provokes Suparna.

It stresses both tanks and healers for nothing :p

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Originally Posted by Doo

Problem with Party Finder for content is everyone wants only over geared players that know the fight. It's like fail safe only.

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People just want a quick and easy win? They don't want to gamble on the skills of strangers who don't know the fight and only meet the minimum gear requirement? What a surprise!

I have done multiple runs of Garuda EX with my Monk and its totally easy to do. If you have people that leave and argue about a melee being in a team can't beat EX, that person doesn't know how to play the game. Really, its not just 1 method to beat anything in here, there's a lot of ways.

Garuda EX is bad for melees but Titan EX is just awful for BLM. And reportedly Ifrit EX is murder on healers though I haven't done that one yet. So it balances out. Squenix is an equal opportunity punisher on the EX Primals.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Garuda EX is bad for melees but Titan EX is just awful for BLM. And reportedly Ifrit EX is murder on healers though I haven't done that one yet. So it balances out. Squenix is an equal opportunity punisher on the EX Primals.

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Garuda EX is bad on melees, titan EX is NOT awful on BLM and ifrit EX is EASY on healers (as long as your DPS aren't eating eruptions for no reason, tanks swapping correctly and moving boss correctly and healers healing competently). On a side note, Ifrit EX is also gimped on melees as there actually is a legit reason why people make all range parties for it lol.

Done alot of time as monk. better than ranged lol

I know how bad it is for melees. I've been trying to clear it for a while now on my MNK, just to finish the damn quests and get the weapon at the end. But can't for the life of me find a party that'll clear it. DF groups are 99.9% guaranteed to fail and party finder groups only take people that are ranged and/or insanely overgeared/experienced. There are people that sell carries for the EX fights, but I never condone that because you wouldn't have earned the prize at the end that way, but the prices of said carries are so sickening I figured the 5-6m price tag was worth noting.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I really, really, really recommend having the OT tank Suparna from the start and make a dps tank Chirada, with all dps stacking for Downburst.

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Does having everyone eat Downburst reduce the damage?

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Originally Posted by Francisco

Does having everyone eat Downburst reduce the damage?

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Yes, it's split across the number of people who take it. More people means less damage per person.

I clear Garuda ex on melee daily... But then again I create my own parties and know how to dodge wicked wheel.

Most the strats require a lot of gear, the normal strat is the only one that doesn't require a high gear check.

A lot of the strat is to avoid tornados, but in reality the tornados are a slow but fruitful learning experience. As a melee can (without any closer skill) travel through the tornados from left to middle to right, in very short time, once you learn (and it takes a good amount of learning) timing and paths of the tornados.

That's also how a Melee is "suppose" to avoid wicked wheel. You travel to the middle, during tornados, wait out wicked wheel, and go back, or go to the other sister. This gist of it is again knowing when wicked wheel happens...and that depends on how well you mesh with the pt and communicate the friction timing. You can do it base on "experiance" but depending on how fast the group bursts down sisters, it may totally throw off your timing.

I suggest melees do it the "normal" way, learn the tornados, become pros at tornados, and then rock garuda down to 1-2 tornado phase, with any amount of dps combinations.

I think its to the point now where people are just bored and just make up stuff to post. lol

Garuda skills: Slipstream --> Downburst --> Whicked Wheel one shot boom boom

Just move when she does downburst. Problem solved. If mele actually knew how to do this, people wouldnt leave. I do this on my MNK daily.

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Originally Posted by Aikota

Garuda skills: Slipstream --> Downburst --> Whicked Wheel one shot boom boom

Just move when she does downburst. Problem solved. If mele actually knew how to do this, people wouldnt leave. I do this on my MNK daily.

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We just look for friction from sister, as that's about when you know it's about to come (and have enough time to do something about it).

Not that hard, but easy to miss in the heat of battle. Traveling through the tornados is also easy if you sit there and watch the animation, but much crazier in a pinch. I believe there's a 6 second window to skim through to the healers. So approx 12 seconds is wasted per wicked wheel (if you choose to kill suprana). That's not all that bad, but not easy.

Taking geared range dps, to wiggle out of the gear check, is a safer method of pugs sadly.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

I believe the Japanese players have a tactic of using melee DPS as a third tank, to tank Chirada. The off-tank grabs Suparna, and main tank focuses on Garuda + Spiny Plume I believe.

Can be done, people simply don't deviate from the "most optimal" tactic. Just like how Coil parties refuse to not run 2 bards.

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Actually the tactic involves multiple melles who grab Chirada and burn the hell out of her on the East side of the room while the off tank takes Suparna south and the main tank handles Garuda in the normal position. Very easy to manage as long as they are substantially geared.

Actually was in a group where the OT refused to pull Suprana off the MT during the tornado phase after we finished burning down Chirada. "You can dodge WW, you shouldn't have come as a melee if you don't know what you are doing."

The tornado phase, people. You know, the one with limited space?