SCH vs WHM

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Originally Posted by Hitome

SCH/SCH > WHM/SCH >>>> WHM/WHM

Whispering stacks. Fey illumination can be used in succession for 40 full seconds. Fey covenant, one of the biggest buffs I see ignored on these forums quite frequently, times 2 for 40 full seconds of magic resistance. Four healers, two bot raid healers. 6 lustrates or 4 lustrates and 2 soils. Improved virus x2. SCH efficiency greatly exceeds WHM efficiency, freeing up BRD manapool to be used strictly for increasing SMN and BLM DPS. Lustrate >> benediction (way too long of a CD). Two healers that can use preemptive shielding on the entire raid and the tanks >>>>>>>> two healers who can use crappy regen from medica 2 (less than rous'd whispering) and regen/stoneskin on a tank where stoneskin doesn't stack and consumes too much MP most of the time to justify the cast.

Have too much healing? One SCH can use a DPS improving pet. DoTs > direct damage that WHM offers.

Only reason I'd ever want a WHM is for holy spam on fights where it doesn't even matter.

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I am going to level a sch because I have nothing else to do, really. And because I want in on this gravy train while it lasts. Besides, might as well collect the healers like pokemon. But do note that most people do not know how to play a SCH. I can tell based on how you guys talk, and how most SCHs heal, and how good SCH compare to bad ones. Maybe SCH is a bit more complicated to play? Either way, if most people don't know how to do it, I'd rather not run with their half-arsed SCH. :)

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

It's a simple numbers game. The healing throughput with no GCD on Embrace, instant lustrate plus the normal SCH heals vs. the casting time from a WHMs single target heals (minus benediction which I don't consider an actual tool in our toolbox for healing throughput). It's more HPS on a single target. Also both Embrace and lustrate can be cast on the run while the adlo shield is up.

Mind you, this is not a "SCH is better than WHM"- statement above. Just explaining why SCH is the more powerful single target healer.

Sure you can Cure II and swiftcast Cure II to try to match it but it still won't be as sustainable as a SCH's HPS. Also MP wise.

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If we're being honest here, I will say that what I read about class design was that SE intended healing to be largely ATB type response (not literally, but more in the sense that damage comes in and you have enough time to plan and execute your heal). I'd say this was true up to about Garuda EX (and I am guessing coil before then, but I don't have enough experience.

In saying that, I am absolutely frustrated with how laggy our heals are. All of our main heals take 2.xx seconds, and we should be using cure I as a mender to proc free cure to proc overcure. But the way they have it designed now, it feels like WHMs are punished compared to the passive healing and faster healing a (good) SCH can do.

I concede my points earlier. Either way, I will level a SCH so I am able to heal all the things.

***reverse posting because "reached limit for day"***

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

The difference between SCH and WHM in one a nutshell is that SCH is a proactive healer and WHM a reactive healer.
If you play your SCH by reaction to what's happening you are doing it wrong and will get into trouble and fall behind in healing. You should also not judge at a SCH partner like you would another WHM. SCH are there to help make a WHMS life, reacting so stuff, easier. IE, give a buffer so the tank doesn't drop to 10hp but stay a bit more stable.
If shit hits the fan on a lot of people then a WHM shines - they also shine if there are huge non constant spikes incoming. A sch partner shines in constant damage on the tank and by keeping a situation stable. (or spot healing dps)
A lot of the times crits can totally ruin a WHM's day because there is nada you can react to if your target is dead.


That is the reason I will always stand for my opinion that whm/sch is better than any other combo.

In terms of what is more difficult to play: I think both jobs have their challenges to really play at the top of your game but WHM is a tiny bit more forgiving when it comes to not knowing an encounter. As a SCH you not only have to manage all the different skills you have and make them work together (debuffs, pet, heals, mitigation) you also need to know what is going to happen to choose your tool beforehand wisely. WHM has to be careful with MP and enmity management but you still only mostly react to what's happening. There are obviously encounters where knowing a fight will still help a WHM (ie stoneskinning for Deathsentence, precasting Aoes etc etc) but it is more forgiving if you make a mistake then it is for a SCH throughout a while encounter duration.

Only my personal opinion though :)

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Well, you're exactly the kind of person I like to debate. Most people cannot get me to change my mind or concede my point of view. You were logical and didn't flare up and flame me for having a different view, but rather took time to offer meaningful and logical points to consider.

I will advise one edit: it's not completely fair to label a WHM a reactive healer. Sure, for a lot of stuff, this point is completely true. BUT--stone skin is a proactive heal (if used right; think WOW disc priest, but a really crappy version of that bubble). Additionally, fights like Titan HM (probably EX and others) and like the Garuda double wheel require proactive healing mentality. If you, as a WHM, are not predicting certain types of damage, you're doing it wrong. Think: Titan tumults.

Your point is probably more that a SCH is 70/30 pro/reactive healing, vs. the opposite for a WHM. Is that fair to say?

I've got near enough the best white mage gear available in game whilst my sch is full ilvl 90 but missing the Allagan book and an earring. Kyomih is right on the money, in terms of raw hp throughput, a sch can put a massive amount of healing on a single target very efficiently with just a couple of macros. On the flip side of course, whilst a sch can indeed achieve excellent AE healing with Rouse>WD, it's still a pig to use compared to Medica I/II. the range is awful, it can be sluggish to cast and unlike Cure III, it's neither targetable nor recastable if you miss.

Long story short, both jobs are entirely viable for any content this game currently has to offer and hence this thread is somewhat pointless.

I will definitely agree with you there.
And that is a definite difference, schs have to be proactive

They are designed to work TOGETHER. Take AOE on Titan. Succor + Medica 2 = full raid with hots. Know why? SCH mitigation keeps everyone from taking the full damage, medica tops them off, hots finish.

Bam. Stop these ridiculous posts. Everyone on FF complains to much.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

snip

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The difference between SCH and WHM in one a nutshell is that SCH is a proactive healer and WHM a reactive healer.
If you play your SCH by reaction to what's happening you are doing it wrong and will get into trouble and fall behind in healing. You should also not judge at a SCH partner like you would another WHM. SCH are there to help make a WHMS life, reacting so stuff, easier. IE, give a buffer so the tank doesn't drop to 10hp but stay a bit more stable.
If shit hits the fan on a lot of people then a WHM shines - they also shine if there are huge non constant spikes incoming. A sch partner shines in constant damage on the tank and by keeping a situation stable. (or spot healing dps)
A lot of the times crits can totally ruin a WHM's day because there is nada you can react to if your target is dead.


That is the reason I will always stand for my opinion that whm/sch is better than any other combo.

In terms of what is more difficult to play: I think both jobs have their challenges to really play at the top of your game but WHM is a tiny bit more forgiving when it comes to not knowing an encounter. As a SCH you not only have to manage all the different skills you have and make them work together (debuffs, pet, heals, mitigation) you also need to know what is going to happen to choose your tool beforehand wisely. WHM has to be careful with MP and enmity management but you still only mostly react to what's happening. There are obviously encounters where knowing a fight will still help a WHM (ie stoneskinning for Deathsentence, precasting Aoes etc etc) but it is more forgiving if you make a mistake then it is for a SCH throughout a while encounter duration.

Only my personal opinion though :)

they're both fine imo.

As a WHM I love when paired with Sch. They allow me to medica/med 2 less with their Fey>whispering dawn coming every minute or so. I dont have to worry about spot healing as much b/c of Eos. I can Stoneskin more and basically sit back and relax since a lot of sch like to show their might by doing everything at once with aoe heals etc :).

As a whm i like when another whm appears. We SS alternatively on things, have two med 2s going and a regen on tanks so we can just do a little cure 1 here and there, but when we synergize and get every1 under med 2+tanks under regen it's pretty much gravy until a derp moment/big hit is coming. On big hit we dont worry and as much since we have SS up anyway and can easily heal big amounts.

As a SCH, I love when whm comes and provides medica on top of succor after WD is on cooldown. I love when they heal for a big amount on the tank and all i have to do is pop a adlo, or decide to throw a few dots after a sacred soil and adlo.

As a sch, i hate when a sch appears. We can get the job done, but wasting shields on succor makes it a booboo medica. And we don't need a booboo medica. 2 fairies? meh, id rather have the aoe big hp healer paired up with me than another eos/whispering dawn. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

I will advise one edit: it's not completely fair to label a WHM a reactive healer. Sure, for a lot of stuff, this point is completely true. BUT--stone skin is a proactive heal (if used right; think WOW disc priest, but a really crappy version of that bubble). Additionally, fights like Titan HM (probably EX and others) and like the Garuda double wheel require proactive healing mentality. If you, as a WHM, are not predicting certain types of damage, you're doing it wrong. Think: Titan tumults.

Your point is probably more that a SCH is 70/30 pro/reactive healing, vs. the opposite for a WHM. Is that fair to say?

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That is the reason why I said "in a nutshell" and also even mentioned obvious encounter where it helps to know the fight as a WHM :)
As a SCH you have to use your migitations together with your healing and debuffs to make up for lack of big heals. That is the reason it's more forgiving for a WHM to make mistakes since our heals won't suffer from it while a SCH will lose out on efficiency if they fall behind in their healing/mitigating.

~ Healing Ultima ~
I like having two WHM.
Medica II permanently up with 2 regens on the tank.
With lots and lots of aoe damage coupled with dodging and certain points where standing still for 3.5 seconds can interrupt spells, HoT = winner.

Cleric&Holy on plumes in Garuda EX.

"Regen isn't mitigation, regen useless if dead"
No tank ever tanks more than 118% hp damage. If they do. They're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

SCH/SCH > WHM/SCH >>>> WHM/WHM

Stuff...

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Maybe you've just had bad WHMs. You talk about MP efficiency like it's an issue but the only time any of our BRDs ever use ballad is during the first set of divebombs in Twintania for like 20 seconds, where nobody is doing any DPS anyway.

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

~ Healing Ultima ~
I like having two WHM.
Medica II permanently up with 2 regens on the tank.
With lots and lots of aoe damage coupled with dodging and certain points where standing still for 3.5 seconds can interrupt spells, HoT = winner.

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Not bad reasons for having two WHM. I can see the upside, though personally; having Sacred Soil and Succor up to soak orb damage, I honestly don't know what I'd do without that mitigation. Keeping Succor up also saves people from dying to random stuff like Ifrit charges. I assume we're talking about entry level healing with PuG; as at i90 with a good group you can solo heal this as whatever.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Maybe you've just had bad WHMs. You talk about MP efficiency like it's an issue but the only time any of our BRDs ever use ballad is during the first set of divebombs in Twintania for like 20 seconds, where nobody is doing any DPS anyway.

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They aren't using ballad for the SCHs. :)

I don't mind being a "support" to a whm. It's nice that the SCH/WHM combination can make a party much more efficient. In my coil group, neither myself NOR my whm ever have MP problems because we're always supporting each other. My shields and tank-focused healing allows the WHM to focus more on group/non-tank heals. This means more up time for stuff like Foe Requiem instead of the DPS hit the bard takes with Mage Ballad.

I know people frown upon FFXI references, but inter-class dependency is one thing I miss about that game. Here in FFXIV, you can pretty much throw together any mix of jobs and everything will work out just fine. SCH/WHM is practically the only job combination that actually sees a dynamic increase in efficiency compared to other job combinations.

Its like Red and Blue. Theyre both colors, but red looks better on some things, and has a different purpose than Blue, as blue looks better on some other things. some people prefer red over blue and vice versa. A red n blue combination make a lovely purple. Whether Blue is a support to Red or the other way around, they need both to make that color.

But please, dont think Red is better than blue.

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Originally Posted by MrDiezel

Its like Red and Blue. Theyre both colors, but red looks better on some things, and has a different purpose than Blue, as blue looks better on some other things. some people prefer red over blue and vice versa. A red n blue combination make a lovely purple. Whether Blue is a support to Red or the other way around, they need both to make that color.

But please, dont think Red is better than blue.

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Cute analogy (>'.')>

I think WHM/SCH are pretty great together in a party, but that SCH is better since 2.1. Of course, AoE healing a WHM is better at, there isn't too many instances where the raid takes damage and you could just Adlo people back up (although it heals for little, just pop one every so often and people will be back up in no time; if you're rolling two SCH, switch them around.)

I begin the question just how much SCH has gotten over powered, though. Our SCH has begun sticking to Cleric Stance [ON] for about 90% of a Titan EXM fight because all he needs to do is let the fairy heal and lustrate. I heal the tank along with the fairy, keeping the tank topped off, but when big hits come he just lustrates with no need to exit Cleric Stance since it's a % of the Tank's HP.
The worst part is a score of 129 DPS, no allagan book either. That's some pretty impressive DPS you can dish out, and since you'll have two healers, with this sort of party you wind up essentially having half another DPS in the party.

It's not just for Titan but for Ifrit and Garuda this has happened, even turns 1 to 4. They were all successful runs, too.

Not arguing. Just a question. As people mentioned Scholar single tank healing is better then WHM.

As a WHM especially in T4, I find that I usually get asked to be the one that constant heal the tank that is getting the most damage.

I find that the SCH is usually the one off healing, and of cause shielding.

Is it because WHM is better at reactive healing?

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Originally Posted by gadenp

Is it because WHM is better at reactive healing?

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Nothing in our skill set points otherwise...

Depends on your group's liking. You and your fellow SCH's gear too.

But usually an equally geared SCH will be better off healing MT.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

Depends on your group's liking. You and your fellow SCH's gear too.

But usually an equally geared SCH will be better off healing MT.

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KK, will tell my SCH to go heal tanks and I can relax :)

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Originally Posted by gadenp

KK, will tell my SCH to go heal tanks and I can relax :)

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well there's two tanks so take one each

WHM is better for solo healing and PvP. Sch is better for MT and buffing dps.

Why is this thread still alive. . . .

Guess I'll put in my personal 2 gil regarding WHM vs SCH as well :D

To Stereotype the 2 healers:
SCH = Tank healer, due to superior single target healing.
WHM = Raid healer, due to superior AoE healing.

Major Difference IMHO:
Ability to deal with RNG BS:
SCH = Sacred Soil, Virus, E4E to reduce chance of BS happening, if BS does happen, Lustrate is your answer (per minute basis).
WHM = E4E, Situational Virus (useless vs magic) to reduce change of BS happening, if BS does happen, Benediction is your answer (per 5 minute basis).

Note I did not include Stone Skin/Adlo inside the anti BS toolkits, as these 2 are only useful vs predictable BS (aka Death Sentence), for other random BS (double dread crit anyone?), Adlo will win Stone Skin due to having a heal component + pet can heal, whereas Stone Skin does not.

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Originally Posted by CalvatE

I begin the question just how much SCH has gotten over powered, though. Our SCH has begun sticking to Cleric Stance [ON] for about 90% of a Titan EXM fight because all he needs to do is let the fairy heal and lustrate. I heal the tank along with the fairy, keeping the tank topped off, but when big hits come he just lustrates with no need to exit Cleric Stance since it's a % of the Tank's HP.

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On the contrary, I think whm are noticeably better for the majority of that trial purely because of the frequency at which those big hits come on. Use cure III/medica II efficiently with a group that can huddle properly and you may as well just swap the sch out for a proper dps. The only point I prefer being on sch is during the adds, if the tank eats a bomb just before the second mountain buster then as whm theres not a huge amount I can do beyond bene or pray, as sch I just lustrate as needed and carry on as if it never happened.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

As a WHM especially in T4, I find that I usually get asked to be the one that constant heal the tank that is getting the most damage.

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I also did the MT healing as whm when we were learning T4 simply due to us not knowing any better at the time and it just kind of stuck. Roll on a few months down the line with me switching to sch to get a new whm in, I'm still healing the MT and I can't begin to stress how much easier the double dreadnought phase is. As whm it was always hard work requiring both myself and the pld to hoard cool downs and the dps to get that first dreadnought down before we both ran out of steam, on sch those two clockworks might as well be a pair of south shroud squirrels, even with the bugs fed early I'm comfortably out healing the damage coming at that pld, and unlike my whm, I'm not haemorrhaging MP in the process.

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Originally Posted by MrDiezel

Its like Red and Blue. Theyre both colors, but red looks better on some things, and has a different purpose than Blue, as blue looks better on some other things. some people prefer red over blue and vice versa. A red n blue combination make a lovely purple. Whether Blue is a support to Red or the other way around, they need both to make that color.

But please, dont think Red is better than blue.

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Thread won, gg!

I wonder if anyone who says "SCH+SCH is bad" has actually ever tried it in content that matters, like Coil.

Turn 1 is just double tank heals, double SCH is easily the best healing approach to this.
Turn 2 is tank heals with light forced AOE damage, SCH can more than handle it with its fairy alone.
Turn 4 is, again, mostly just tank heals, unless you hit emergency mode.
Turn 5 is a joke with dual-SCH, Infirmity makes sure of that.

lol these threads make me giggle.

WHM - Serious Gods at AOE healing and reactive healing
SCH - Gods at mitigation, dps and turret healing

Neither one is that much better than the other, both are good to have in a party.

Kill this thread, before some more misinformed elitists spread their nonsense.

I think the biggest problem is that WHM weakness is being pointed out more simply by people playing the game. Every fight in FFXIV is scripted, that's a given. At some point everyone will know the fight (with a static this comes sooner rather than later). It eventually boils down to a point where there's no NEED for a "reactive" healer like WHM because people know what to dodge and when to dodge it. Nothing is unexpected outside of the occasional crit. SCH is MORE than qualified to heal after this point because, as Sanguisio stated above like many others, they are kings of party mitigation with shields and a wide array of buffs and debuffs. Tanks receive 99% of all the damage from all the bosses in this game, and SCH excel at ST healing.

In another thread I stated that, yes WHM/SCH is a powerful healing team for most content (you'd have to be stupid to not realize that)...but once you have a decent static with players who know how to work together, SCH/SCH is a much more powerful combo in end-game fights, especially Coil. That's because this game has mechanics that favor mitigation over brute forcing. Prime example is the whole PLD vs WAR argument pre-2.1. WAR could not compete on the same level as PLD because their skill set favored brute force recovery over mitigation, and because FFXIV mechanics make mitigation more powerful than brute-force recovery, WAR were often rejected from parties in favor of PLD/PLD combos. WHM is suffering from a similar problem right now, though not quite as extreme as WAR. Like WAR, they rely on brute force recovery....but we are in a game which favors mitigation for end-game content. One could argue that WHM would have to start stepping on SCH feet more in order to provide the same level of support, similar to how WAR moved closer to PLD mitigation in 2.1. It's either that, or change the mechanics of these end-game boss fights to punish the party more than the tank so that WHM has an important role. I'm more in favor of the latter, as I'd hate to see more classes blended together into hybrids.

In current FFXIV, with existing boss mechanics, there is only 1 scenario in which WHM's strength really shows...fights in which everyone is new. With everyone new, all damage is "unexpected" and thus, reactive healing is equally as important as mitigation. So now the question is, what can be done with FFXIV to create fights that replicate this kind of need for some necessary reactive healing?
SE would need to create more unscripted fights that rely on sophisticated boss AI. In such fights, damage patterns would be non-existant and sudden heavy AoE damage can come at a moment's notice, requiring the entire party to be healed from 10% to 100% HP in seconds because the next huge AoE spam-fest could happen immediately after (or not...that's the joy of random AI).

This will be my only post on the matter as far as this thread goes, as I've covered pretty much everything above. I have other posts in these forums that delve into this more and I don't want to repeat myself too much.

Eloquently stated, Velox. I thought for sure that I had conveyed this idea in previous posts but am glad your post focused entirely on the concept of reactivity.

It's easy to label WHM as inferior compared to SCH when you have a static group of people, know each others' playstyles, and everyone dodges 95% of the time.

When you start PUGing content, though, then it's time to bust out the WHM.

Honestly this battle will go on forever and ever and ever.

It all boils down to opinion and what you like best. Neither one is bad at anything and both very capable of doing everything. The difference is in use and the people you're using it with. I know my coil crew just recently lost probably one of the best sch I've ever seen and we replaced him with a WHM and all anyone says in our coil runs is wow this feels so much smoother / faster now. We had a hard time with titan ex with SCH, aced it with 2x whm. This isn't to say it's fact, truth, gospel, or absolute. Just what seems to be working for one group. Some groups say "wow SCH / SCH is absolutely the best and most amazing thing ever!" Grats to them, it works and they get the job done. Two WHM can get the job done, a mix of each can get the job done, two SCH can get the job done.

Debating made up numbers and opinions is well..it's guna keep us all in here arguing the same useless points over and over again.