SMN - Pet Questions

Nope, obey. Ifrit on sic.

Did another parse for ifrit still got 75 after 10 min. Only explanation I can come up with is he scales better with certain stats, but I dunno. Seems odd.

Contagion and range probably still make garuda more worthwhile though, but I find the result interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

Nope, obey. Ifrit on sic.

Did another parse for ifrit still got 75 after 10 min. Only explanation I can come up with is he scales better with certain stats, but I dunno. Seems odd.

Contagion and range probably still make garuda more worthwhile though, but I find the result interesting.

---

What crit, det, spell spd, int, wpn dmg?

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1762385/

Put me on the same boat for pants (and boots).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1762385/

Put me on the same boat for pants (and boots).

---

Compare to you, I have:

+37 crit
+15 det
-23 spell speed
-11 int

I can't logic out any reason why your Garuda would deal less damage, but mine deals more.

Tried switching some det for spell speed (about 15 det for 30 or so spell speed) cause that's the one stat I had more than you but my ifrit's dps went down by 2 from it. Maybe ifrit benefits more from int?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

Tried switching some det for spell speed (about 15 det for 30 or so spell speed) cause that's the one stat I had more than you but my ifrit's dps went down by 2 from it. Maybe ifrit benefits more from int?

---

For one, Garuda is better suited for crits(slower bigger hits, more susceptible to RNG) and Ifrit is better suited for DET(DET has a big effect on auto attacks).

Second, yours was Obey vs Sic and his was Obey vs Obey.

But that still doesn't deter from the issue that Ifrit is useless for a multitude of reasons.
Ifrit is melee, Ifrit has to have DK, Ifrit can't reliably hit a moving target unless it has Heavy, Ifrit is worse for target switching, Ifrit has to be on Sic(burning an AoE+Stun which isn't always viable/wanted), and has no utility for synergy between BRD.



Edit: Also, two more things.
-MP constraints between switching pets
-Spell Speed, while worse for Ifrit(useless, even)--Ifrit still doubles the uptime on our passive, making it a 5-6% overall increase in SS, rather than 2-3%. So the change from SS to DET, and your "loss" of 2 DPS isn't exactly that.

He has both obey and sic numbers for ifrit (68 for obey, 70 for sic). And your numbers have sic ifrit losing to obey garuda too, or I think that's what you used anyway. I'm not arguing that ifrit is better than garuda, I'm just pointing out an oddity and trying to understand why this is happening because I think it can be relevent in understanding how things work, mainly the relation between our stats and our pets and how it affects them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

He has both obey and sic numbers for ifrit (68 for obey, 70 for sic). And your numbers have sic ifrit losing to obey garuda too, or I think that's what you used anyway. I'm not arguing that ifrit is better than garuda, I'm just pointing out an oddity and trying to understand why this is happening because I think it can be relevent in understanding how things work, mainly the relation between our stats and our pets and how it affects them.

---

Mine were just Obey+Obey.

My understanding is that Ifrit would scale similar to DRG/MNK, where DET is exceptionally strong because of their auto attacks. That would be why with such a "small" loss(15), you saw a 2 DPS decrease from Ifrit.

Yet torin has more det than I do and his ifrit is 5 dps under mine. And although I do have more int, his garuda is 2 more dps than mine. Maybe crit matters even more to garuda than det does to ifrit.

It honestly doesn't make much sense. Kevee, try parsing Ifrit in Sic vs Garuda in Obey, and see what happens. I'm wondering if at a certain int threshold, Ifrit can bypass Garuda when in Sic, because of how his damage is calculated, and Garuda does more damage on Obey (even against Ifrit's Sic) at lower level of int.

I still don't think it would make Ifrit worth using, but it would be good to know if that is what is happening. That's about all that can really explain the numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

10 min parses.

http://i.imgur.com/EeWiP6R.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wylrLR9.jpg

:|

???

---

Dude...

ifrit crit 18.06%
garuda crit 17.42%

get a parse where they crit the same and i bet garuda does the same if not more. and then you're not even counting contagion / range

and that's on a dummy that doesn't move


Ifrit sucks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

I'm just pointing out an oddity and trying to understand why this is happening because I think it can be relevent in understanding how things work, mainly the relation between our stats and our pets and how it affects them.

---

As an outsider looking in (15 ACN, go!), is it possible that your Ifrit is tagging something with his AOE? The parser wouldn't catch that, and I kinda doubt you were watching the screen a full 10 minutes while your Ifrit wailed away at a dummy. Just an idea. >_>


Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxalucard

Dude...

ifrit crit 18.06%
garuda crit 17.42%

get a parse where they crit the same and i bet garuda does the same if not more.

---

Some basic math shows that the .64% difference in crit rate only accounts for about 1/3 of the extra damage. So, there's still 2 DPS to account for just to tie them, much less have Garuda winning before accounting for her other abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

Some basic math shows that the .64% difference in crit rate only accounts for about 1/3 of the extra damage. So, there's still 2 DPS to account for just to tie them, much less have Garuda winning before accounting for her other abilities.

---

What basic math is that? The difference was only 2k damage. Also a lot of parsers have been wrong lately, showing my highest damage as 946 when I know I fester'd for 1100+ in a fight.

Parsers aren't reliable.


Edit* As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Garuda benefits from the 20% spell speed buff (the trait that has a small chance of proccing when a pet crits), while Ifrit does not. So if you assume the parser is even reliable (I don't, by the way), more crits = more chances of that proccing, = faster wind blades, = more damage.

I'd love to see your basic math equation that factors all of that. Please show me how basic it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

As an outsider looking in (15 ACN, go!), is it possible that your Ifrit is tagging something with his AOE? The parser wouldn't catch that, and I kinda doubt you were watching the screen a full 10 minutes while your Ifrit wailed away at a dummy. Just an idea. >_>

---

No I made sure before I started that he wouldn't be in range of any more targets. He was only hitting a single target the entire time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxalucard

What basic math is that? The difference was only 2k damage. Also a lot of parsers have been wrong lately, showing my highest damage as 946 when I know I fester'd for 1100+ in a fight.

Parsers aren't reliable.


Edit* I assume you don't main summoner, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Garuda benefits from the 20% spell speed buff (the trait that has a small chance of proccing when a pet crits), while Ifrit does not. So if you assume the parser is even reliable (I don't, by the way), more crits = more chances of that proccing, = faster wind blades, = more damage.

I'd love to see your basic math equation that factors all of that. Please show me how basic it is.

---

Basic math is basic math.

Parsers are reliable for pets.

The spell speed increase is already included in the parses, since garuda procs it herself and then benefits from it so there's no need to take it into consideration. It's that basic. lol...

Here's one that's a little closer, since basic math doesn't do it for you.

http://i.imgur.com/1EzCbcx.jpg

Still way ahead of garuda in damage done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

No I made sure before I started that he wouldn't be in range of any more targets. He was only hitting a single target the entire time.



Basic math is basic math.

Parsers are reliable for pets.

The spell speed increase is already included in the parses, since garuda procs it herself and then benefits from it so there's no need to take it into consideration. It's that basic. lol...

Here's one that's a little closer, since basic math doesn't do it for you.

http://i.imgur.com/1EzCbcx.jpg

Still way ahead of garuda in damage done.

---

Your parser doesn't even factor shadowflare, so why should you trust it's accurate with anything? Parsers have been wrong before on my and my pet's highest attack every single fight.

And how does keeping a pet on obey without using any abilities like rouse / spur test for anything other than how much dps they would do if you randomly afk'd in a fight? Rouse / Spur when Garuda gets the spell speed buff (which can proc multiple times in a row) increases it's damage over Ifrit significantly.

Your basic math would "do it for me" if you actually had any. Math usually involves numbers and an equation, not a screenshot of your bootleg parser.



PS: Kobe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxalucard

What basic math is that? The difference was only 2k damage. Also a lot of parsers have been wrong lately, showing my highest damage as 946 when I know I fester'd for 1100+ in a fight.

Parsers aren't reliable.

---

18.06% of 44,919 damage is 8,113 damage.
17.42% of 42,746 damage is 7,447 damage.
The difference in critical damage done is 666
The difference in total damage done is 2,173.
666/2173=.31

So, 31% of the damage difference is due to the difference in critical damage.

Now, if you want to argue that in any real fight, Garuda will do more damage, I think I've only seen one person in this thread that would disagree with you. What the last few posts have been trying to figure out is why on this one character only, Ifrit is out-dps'ing Garuda under the same circumstances everyone else is using where Garuda usually does better.

So, pretty close to the perfect gear for my SCH so started gearing up SMN and wondering, I assume that most BiS sets call for the proper amount of ACC for T5 which would be? And then the other focus being crit. But since Garuda is affected my spellspeed would stacking spell speed be worth anything? I myself assume not but I would like to spend my Myth on my BRD and not my SMN so being able to get some Allagan for my SMN that has a lot of SpellSPeed would be awesome. ^^

Since I am asking about Garuda is this the right thread for this? Sorry if it isn't. ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxalucard

Your parser doesn't even factor shadowflare, so why should you trust it's accurate with anything? Parsers have been wrong before on my and my pet's highest attack every single fight.

And how does keeping a pet on obey without using any abilities like rouse / spur test for anything other than how much dps they would do if you randomly afk'd in a fight? Rouse / Spur when Garuda gets the spell speed buff (which can proc multiple times in a row) increases it's damage over Ifrit significantly.

---

We're comparing garuda and ifrit's damage, why even bring up shadowflare?

I have parses using rouse and spur on cd, and ifrit still came out ahead. I won't bother posting them since I highly doubt your sincerity in actually participating in any meaningful discussion on this. You can't say one pet is stronger than the other while completely discrediting the tools used to actually measure their damage in the first place. If you want to claim ignorance then do it fully.

ummm ok ok ok you see garuda better ?!?! in damage and you make ffxivappp work as you like ^^

but 1 more time go to ummmm ultima and fight 1 time withe ifrit and next time withe garuda ^^

and see total damage at the end

what you will lose just tray it ^^

and i need him to use ffxivapp ^^ not ppl who love garuda :)

thx all ^^

I could use Ifrit on ultima but he would die pretty quickly

More total damage in a fight that lasts longer means nothing. That's why DPS is what we measure.

PET QUESTION:

Cleared all the Ex Primals on my SCH. Want some of the items for my SMN though so started trying to get Garuda's Ring first. Well has not dropped in 5 tries BUT question is: Even if you get your pet into the Wind Protection Bubble does it still die on you? When I was on SCH my fairy never had an issue staying alive but Garuda-Egi died every time even when in middle of bubble and even when SCH put up Sacred Soil and Succor. Am I missing something or do yunz' pets die too?

i all the time use ifirt ^^ but he did not die :)
no all fight need ifrit but on ultima lol ok he die withe you but never withe me ^^
and i say tray :)
on titan ex i use garuda
so ifrit no all the time the best
but i say he is the key if you need your smn go up alot on damage in your party ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

We're comparing garuda and ifrit's damage, why even bring up shadowflare?

I have parses using rouse and spur on cd, and ifrit still came out ahead. I won't bother posting them since I highly doubt your sincerity in actually participating in any meaningful discussion on this. You can't say one pet is stronger than the other while completely discrediting the tools used to actually measure their damage in the first place. If you want to claim ignorance then do it fully.

---

I'm not so sure what is "meaningful" about you posting your dummy ifrit DPS results from a parser.

How much DPS will ifrit do on any of the extreme primals when he's dead?
How will you keep Ifrit on Sic in any fight that stun resistance matters and he messes it up?
Assuming he really does more DPS (he doesn't), How will Ifrit ever beat contagion? Or Garuda's range when changing targets?

What is the point of your tests when they reflect nothing from a real fight? What is the point of ever using ifrit if garuda's range + contagion always beats him? Are you that impressed that ifrit managed to 2 - 3 more dps on a test dummy for you?

If you're going to act superior with parser screenshots, at least post information that will be useful in real encounters-- you know, where the enemy moves and fights back.

I'll fully claim ignorance on how to play summoner. You got me man, Ifrit must be better for SMN DPS. I mean, if not, wouldn't there be no point to your posts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxalucard

I'll fully claim ignorance on how to play summoner. You got me man, Ifrit must be better for SMN DPS. I mean, if not, wouldn't there be no point to your posts?

---

Only if you need a simple answer of "Use X pet". Otherwise, there would be a point.
In identical scenarios, you have different results of which pet pulls ahead in dps.
That's the whole issue, isn't it? Not which pet is best in a real fight.
This is meaningful because it can potentially further theorycrafting on how pets scale with various stats.
The difference between Seobit's results and others are likely stat allocation and that's what people are trying to figure out.

The few more dps ifrit puts out is not impressive. It's that it's consistent in one case where Garuda was consistently ahead in another.
Uncovering the discrepancy in results by analyzing both situations as they are doing is a much more meaningful discussion than which pet is better in a real fight.
Since that's not really a discussion. It's Garuda. Almost all of us agree on that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxalucard

What is the point of your tests when they reflect nothing from a real fight? What is the point of ever using ifrit if garuda's range + contagion always beats him? Are you that impressed that ifrit managed to 2 - 3 more dps on a test dummy for you?

---

Never did I say to use ifrit or that ifrit was better. I even explicitly said he wasn't. All I did was point out inconsistencies with other people's results and trying to figure out why they exist, because even if you only care about end results and practical application of these results, other people do want to know how things work and how we get to those results.

Everyone knows to use garuda (except that random guy who I can't even understand). It doesn't do anyone any good if all you do is come in here and say use garuda, ifrit sucks. We already know that, thanks.

It's fine if you don't understand why I posted these results of mine, but I'd appreciate if you didn't take so much offense to them, that's really not their purpose. Keep on using garuda nobody's going to chastise you for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxalucard

I'm not so sure what is "meaningful" about you posting your dummy ifrit DPS results from a parser.

How much DPS will ifrit do on any of the extreme primals when he's dead?
How will you keep Ifrit on Sic in any fight that stun resistance matters and he messes it up?
Assuming he really does more DPS (he doesn't), How will Ifrit ever beat contagion? Or Garuda's range when changing targets?

What is the point of your tests when they reflect nothing from a real fight? What is the point of ever using ifrit if garuda's range + contagion always beats him? Are you that impressed that ifrit managed to 2 - 3 more dps on a test dummy for you?

If you're going to act superior with parser screenshots, at least post information that will be useful in real encounters-- you know, where the enemy moves and fights back.

I'll fully claim ignorance on how to play summoner. You got me man, Ifrit must be better for SMN DPS. I mean, if not, wouldn't there be no point to your posts?

---

Have you been paying attention at all?

The only thing Seobit's said has been, "Hey, parses against dummies usually show Garuda beating Ifrit, even on dummy fights, much less real fights; but I have these parses here where Ifrit is winning. Any idea why?" At no point has anyone other than Vamp007 said that Ifrit is actually better than Garuda for any real fight. We're just trying to work out what's going on in this specific instance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

PET QUESTION:

Cleared all the Ex Primals on my SCH. Want some of the items for my SMN though so started trying to get Garuda's Ring first. Well has not dropped in 5 tries BUT question is: Even if you get your pet into the Wind Protection Bubble does it still die on you? When I was on SCH my fairy never had an issue staying alive but Garuda-Egi died every time even when in middle of bubble and even when SCH put up Sacred Soil and Succor. Am I missing something or do yunz' pets die too?

---

Fairies tend to be more resilient I think because they are more likely to heal themselves. I'm not sure if fairies even heal other pets at all. On certain fights such as EM Garuda you kinda have to be on the ball as a SMN and make sure to toss out sustains whenever you can to keep your pet healed up so that it can survive these high damage transitions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seobit

Fairies tend to be more resilient I think because they are more likely to heal themselves. I'm not sure if fairies even heal other pets at all. On certain fights such as EM Garuda you kinda have to be on the ball as a SMN and make sure to toss out sustains whenever you can to keep your pet healed up so that it can survive these high damage transitions.

---

A fairy nor a chocobo will ever target an Egi for a cure, but any AOE cure will affect them if in range. Not even if the Egi is tanking and everyone else is at 100% HP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

PET QUESTION:

Cleared all the Ex Primals on my SCH. Want some of the items for my SMN though so started trying to get Garuda's Ring first. Well has not dropped in 5 tries BUT question is: Even if you get your pet into the Wind Protection Bubble does it still die on you? When I was on SCH my fairy never had an issue staying alive but Garuda-Egi died every time even when in middle of bubble and even when SCH put up Sacred Soil and Succor. Am I missing something or do yunz' pets die too?

---

Most important thing is to get garuda out of the windburn aoe, that will kill her if you don't have sustain up constantly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Georgevonfranken

Most important thing is to get garuda out of the windburn aoe, that will kill her if you don't have sustain up constantly.

---

It isn't that Garuda is dying from damage or anything when you kill the Spiny Plume and get in to the Bubble it makes to save yourself. EVEN when my Garuda is at Max HP because I use Sustain a lot more than most people I think, the AoE from Garuda will one shot my Egi. Even when the Egi is in the bubble with Succor SHield and Sacred Soil around her she will get one shoted. My SMN is IL74ish so it isn't like I am under geared. No one else is having this problem? Again I am talking being one shoted by the AoE that you are hiding in the bubble for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

It isn't that Garuda is dying from damage or anything when you kill the Spiny Plume and get in to the Bubble it makes to save yourself. EVEN when my Garuda is at Max HP because I use Sustain a lot more than most people I think, the AoE from Garuda will one shot my Egi. Even when the Egi is in the bubble with Succor SHield and Sacred Soil around her she will get one shoted. My SMN is IL74ish so it isn't like I am under geared. No one else is having this problem? Again I am talking being one shoted by the AoE that you are hiding in the bubble for.

---

I assume your pet isn't making it into the bubble in time. If you could get a video of it happening it would be the easiest way to see what's going on.

http://i.imgur.com/6QVPDZ7.png
http://i.imgur.com/6QVPDZ7.png

http://i.imgur.com/gWBgdk1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gWBgdk1.jpg

Another Garuda, and there's my Sic Ifrit.



Edit: I was in a rush to leave this morning, but the only plausible thing I can think of for Seobit's different parses is a hidden passive on full AF+1, which wouldn't be unknown from SE.
I mean, I don't know why his Garuda is parsing so "low," either.
One thing may be Spell Speed. I go Int > Crit > Spell Speed > Det.
Seobit has 3 more Int, 2 more WD, 9 more DET, but 45 less Spell Speed(I want the neck off of T5, too..) and 12 less Crit in my parsing gear. My Garuda parses ~1 lower. That..Doesn't make sense, unless Spell Speed is just a vastly greater stat for Garuda than anything else.
While Spell Speed isn't great for the actual cast of Wind Blade, it's phenomenal for lowering the GCD/Recast of it. As we know Spell Speed has a higher effect for longer casts, and the recast is 3s, not 2.5s.
That combined with crit which means more uptime on our passive could be the difference.

Edit2: Then again, this doesn't completely justify T0rins results compared to yours. The only thing I can think of is his higher crit = more uptime on the passive = more Spell Speed.

ummm looks like you guys just pop garuda or ifrit and start fight ?

i just get it .......that's why you all say garuda ??? ummmm

cuz if you go and test your ifrit and garuda on dummy they both will go 21k in 5 min

so no one know how to make ifrit do more damage >.> ?
but if you know how to make ifrit do more damge lol he will go 9k up esay ?
i was think you all know ;/
and looks not ......and you all just attack me ; ;
ill keep it then to me :)

keep ifrit to me ^^ and you all stay withe garuda <--- i like her so much 2
but btw i am lvl ilvl76 and i win the total damage in 90% from all fight
and there is ilvl 83 there BLM MNK and SMN and cant win me.
guys the key is to know your job ......not to fight others.......and look at this guy up ^^ he say sic ifrit :) ok ok why you angry that much ^^!?
some ppl have ilvl 85 and do meeh damage cuz he don't know how to use his skills

anyway don't angry from me there ^^ i might be wrong...

maybe I am right

Look, Vamp, it's cool that you really like Ifrit, but until you show parses, we're not gonna just take your word for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

Look, Vamp, it's cool that you really like Ifrit, but until you show parses, we're not gonna just take your word for it.

---

the problem .....is ...... i cant :)
you do.......use ifrit and garuda and find out :)
cuz if i do ........i can make titan fight like 10min the dummy .........and garuda or titan for for 7min and i say look guys titan more damage :)
i just say thing's :)
you have the ffxivapp use it and see
if you ar perfect SMN ^^ and know how to use your SMN ^^ you will know why ffxiv deva say ifrit = DD.... garuda DD+ support......and titan=tank :)
gahhhh why we go that far for something normal >.> ??
anyway GL guys and have a nice game ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vamp007

you do.......use ifrit and garuda and find out :)

---

We did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vamp007

cuz if i do ........i can make titan fight like 10min the dummy .........and garuda or titan for for 7min and i say look guys titan more damage :)

---

If you don't understand basic terminology(DPS vs. Damage, what a parser does), then please do not continue the discussion. There is virtually no difference, DPS-wise, from a 10 minute parse versus a 7 minute parse. At that point, you're just trying to normalize your crit rate with the law of large numbers. We are not talking about damage. We are talking about DPS. More DPS = More damage, sooner.

We are trying to find out why my(over multiple times), and t0rin's parsing results show different than Seobit's.

Unless you have input, a parse, or can say what you're doing differently--Please dip out of this thread so it doesn't get muddled up in this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vamp007

cuz if i do ........i can make titan fight like 10min the dummy .........and garuda or titan for for 7min and i say look guys titan more damage :)

---

We could easily tell if you were doing that. This is exactly why we look at the DPS number and the Total Damage number. This isn't hard to figure out. . .

The amount of bad summoners in this thread is "Too Damn High!" No wonder SMNs still get bad rep at times. Did someone really say use lolparser? Wow.....I thought this sorta thing was already done months ago.....Garuda>Ifrit...always in PVE, /thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevee

Edit2: Then again, this doesn't completely justify T0rins results compared to yours. The only thing I can think of is his higher crit = more uptime on the passive = more Spell Speed.

---

I think that is a very likely explanation for what is going on. The spell speed buff that Garuda spits out is something like 80-90 spell speed. She crits more, buffs you more, lets her cast faster. In my mind, there are very few things that could explain how my Garuda does more than Seobit's Garuda with _11_ less int. That is a lot of int! And yet, my Garuda does more.