Why is "Duty Roulette" a solo feature?

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Originally Posted by Taekrys

How is, promoting the opposite of this (just to have shorter queues?), a nice thing?

Moreover, while I read a lot of your opinions, has any of you a source for this being the official reason?

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There was an official explanation somewhere, but I honestly can't be bothered to go digging for it. All you need to do is look at the way the Duty Roulette is set up to see why it is the way it is. It has nothing to do with pre-made groups and such, all it is is incentive to get people to queue up solo to fill needed roles that other groups can't seem to fill. To make this an appealing thing to do they offer a reward (increased GC seals, Myth/Philos, Gil, etc).

Honestly not sure why it's such a big deal. Do your pre-made stuff when your friends are on, use DR when you're alone.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

There was an official explanation somewhere, but I honestly can't be bothered to go digging for it. All out need to do is look at the way the Duty Roulette is set up to see why it is the way it is. It has nothing to do with pre-made groups and such, all it is is incentive to get people to queue up solo to fill needed roles that other groups can't seem to fill. To make this an appealing thing to do they offer a reward (increased GC seals, Myth/Philos, Gil, etc).

Honestly not sure why it's such a big deal. Do your pre-made stuff when your friends are on, use DR when you're alone.

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She's complaining she'd have to spend more time with her friends than with random strangers. How Dare SE force her to spend time with people she enjoys being around.

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Originally Posted by ispano

You queuing in a roulette as a group of 2-4 doesn't help these people at all.

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Pretty sure my group of two looking to fill a tank and dps slots helps two people (including a poor dps) very much. That group of three that needs one last dps, or a tank, or a healer? Yup, helping someone.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Honestly not sure why it's such a big deal. Do your pre-made stuff when your friends are on, use DR when you're alone.

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I don't enjoy playing this game alone. The social aspect is the bulk of what distinguishes an MMORPG from a regular ol' RPG. I should be able to queue roulette with my fiance.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Pretty sure my group of two looking to fill a tank and dps slots helps two people (including a poor dps) very much. That group of three that needs one last dps, or a tank, or a healer? Yup, helping someone.

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Actually that group of 3 would never see you, they already have 3, it won't even consider your group of two.

This seems pretty simple to me. If you want to queue with someone else that you know, do it. If you want to get added rewards for using Duty Roullete then do that. If you don't want to play alone then don't use Duty Roullete. DR is there to help reduce queue times by reducing the amount of pre-made groups. Nobody is getting screwed out of anything if you don't want to queue solo. Just go about your business and forget DR is even in the game.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I don't enjoy playing this game alone. The social aspect is the bulk of what distinguishes an MMORPG from a regular ol' RPG. I should be able to queue roulette with my fiance.

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So don't play the game alone. Nothing is stopping you from entering a queue with your fiance, you just can't use the Duty Roulette (for obvious reasons, it's meant to fill up a party having trouble finding that last member). If a couple hundred additional seals, 10/40 Myth and/or some Philos are that big of a deal then there are other issues.

Not to mention the fact that a premade party of friends who normally play together will demolish most instances much faster than your average DF PUG. Again, I don't see what the big fuss is over the DR.

I would also like to be able to queue with friends. As it is I simply don't do duty roulette.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Actually that group of 3 would never see you, they already have 3, it won't even consider your group of two.

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You misunderstood my statements, which were meant to be taken separately. The group of 3 helps a solo individual, and the group of two helps two individuals.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

you just can't use the Duty Roulette (for obvious reasons, it's meant to fill up a party having trouble finding that last member).

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So my party looking to fill two spots doesn't count as a group "having trouble finding that last member"? I'm pretty sure we could make much use of solo queuers.

Don't listen to the "Yes men" in this thread OP. You're absolutely right that they should allow people to queue as a group of 2. You're wrong that you should be able to do it with a group of 4... that defeats the purpose of the system. But there's absolutely no reason we should not be able to queue in a group of 2.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

You misunderstood my statements, which were meant to be taken separately. The group of 3 helps a solo individual, and the group of two helps two individuals.

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And a Solo player helps ANY group missing that one role, without being restricted by having 1 or more others with them. I did not misunderstand.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Don't listen to the "Yes men" in this thread OP. You're absolutely right that they should allow people to queue as a group of 2. You're wrong that you should be able to do it with a group of 4... that defeats the purpose of the system. But there's absolutely no reason we should not be able to queue in a group of 2.

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Yeah queueing as groups of two makes sense and is a nice compromise between the initial intent of DR and player outcry.

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Originally Posted by ispano

And a Solo player helps ANY group missing that one role, without being restricted by having 1 or more others with them. I did not misunderstand.

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A group of two/three players using the roulette would help two/one people. By not allowing them to queue together in the roulette they will help no one instead. What you are saying is that allowing these people to help 0 people is better than allowing them to help 2 or 1. The current silly system isn't giving us more people to match up with: it's giving us less.

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Originally Posted by Ildur

A group of two/three players using the roulette would help two/one people. By not allowing them to queue together in the roulette they will help no one instead. The current silly system isn't giving us more people to match up with: it's giving us less.

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That's pretty much what I'm saying. Since I can't queue with my friend(s) I'm not doing DR and thus helping no one find a group.

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Originally Posted by Despite

That's pretty much what I'm saying. Since I can't queue with my friend(s) I'm not doing DR and thus helping no one find a group.

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The problem with your argument is you were queuing with your friends BEFORE as well. So by still doing the same, nothing has changed... except OTHER people ARE solo queuing with the roulette now, so it IS a help. Even if you keep doing as you have before.

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Originally Posted by ispano

The problem with your argument is you were queuing with your friends BEFORE as well. So by still doing the same, nothing has changed... except OTHER people ARE solo queuing with the roulette now, so it IS a help. Even if you keep doing as you have before.

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I was? I've only used DR maybe twice or three times total. Once I tried to queue with my roommate and found out I couldn't I stopped using it.
To go even further, I don't support the use of group finders in general as I feel they break down the social aspects of MMOs. I'd rather do it the old fashioned way.
But if I could queue with friends I would most likely use it occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Despite

I was? I've only used DR maybe twice or three times total. Once I tried to queue with my roommate and found out I couldn't I stopped using it.
To go even further, I don't support the use of group finders in general as I feel they break down the social aspects of MMOs. I'd rather do it the old fashioned way.
But if I could queue with friends I would most likely use it occasionally.

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My point was, before DR even existed, you did runs with friends, right, you didn't solo queue, right? Which based on your statements is no different from now. But SOME people that only grouped before DO use it now. Even if you personally don't, doesn't mean no one who only grouped before, aren't using it. It has been a benefit, even if you yourself aren't using it.

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Originally Posted by Taekrys

And about the one who said I care about rewards more... I don't.
In this week I didn't gather a single Allagan Mythology, I'm still 0/450, EXACTLY because since this feature is out, I was unable to find my friends available for queues anymore.
I care about playing with friends A LOT MORE than rewards. And that's why I'm unhappy with this Duty Roulette.
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your friends care more about capping myth faster than running with you. it's not the fault of the solo-que bonus, its the fault of you and/or your friends.

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Originally Posted by ispano

My point was, before DR even existed, you did runs with friends, right, you didn't solo queue, right? Which based on your statements is no different from now. But SOME people that only grouped before DO use it now. Even if you personally don't, doesn't mean no one who only grouped before, aren't using it. It has been a benefit, even if you yourself aren't using it.

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Ah I see your point. If people like it and are happy using it them more power to them. but I think the system could be improved by allowing 2 people to queue together and having it so that no two teams of two end up in the same party. So every time my roommate and I queue up we're getting two random strangers. Seems to me that this keeps the intended purpose of the DR while still allowing two friends to DR together.

If they wanted you to do it with a group they would have just made adjustments to Duty Finder itself and Roulette would not need to exist. The Roulette bonuses are rewards for people who are willing to queue solo as this is the best party size that will help the system to fill spots.

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Originally Posted by Despite

Ah I see your point. If people like it and are happy using it them more power to them. but I think the system could be improved by allowing 2 people to queue together and having it so that no two teams of two end up in the same party. So every time my roommate and I queue up we're getting two random strangers. Seems to me that this keeps the intended purpose of the DR while still allowing two friends to DR together.

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Regardless of the fact that they will be allowing people to join it as more than 1 person later on(could max out at like 3 however) Allowing a single player is still the most optimal for filling groups that need people. As soon as you allow a second, you start excluding people.

For example, 3 people have been put together in DF for say, Copperbell Mines. 2 DD and a healer. You and a tank friend queue as a duo, those 3 still wait, even if they were waiting longer than whatever two people you DO get.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Regardless of the fact that they will be allowing people to join it as more than 1 person later on(could max out at like 3 however) Allowing a single player is still the most optimal for filling groups that need people. As soon as you allow a second, you start excluding people.

For example, 3 people have been put together in DF for say, Copperbell Mines. 2 DD and a healer. You and a tank friend queue as a duo, those 3 still wait, even if they were waiting longer than whatever two people you DO get.

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Great point, but what if those same people who were going to que, now do not que because they don't feel it's worth it to que if they can't play together? You just effectively took the two out of the que completely.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Great point, but what if those same people who were going to que, now do not que because they don't feel it's worth it to que if they can't play together? You just effectively took the two out of the que completely.

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then the queue without them will be shorter for all those players in the queue... math is fun

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Great point, but what if those same people who were going to que, now do not que because they don't feel it's worth it to que if they can't play together? You just effectively took the two out of the que completely.

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Except those people wouldn't have solo queue'd in the first place, no? Meaning nothing changed on their part, except OTHER people will.

Say you have 100 people, who prior to 2.1, only ever went in groups. Now with the roulette, say 75 of those people refuse to use it because they can't go in a group. The other 25 however, will. So even if those 75 don't, that's still 25 more people to fill spots with.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Except those people wouldn't have solo queue'd in the first place, no? Meaning nothing changed on their part, except OTHER people will.

Say you have 100 people, who prior to 2.1, only ever went in groups. Now with the roulette, say 75 of those people refuse to use it because they can't go in a group. The other 25 however, will. So even if those 75 don't, that's still 25 more people to fill spots with.

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Right, but you're taking the common team of Tank+Heals out of the que's, so in my opinion, this actually hurts the DPS more than anyone else. Sure, sometimes a Tank + DPS, Heals + DPS will go on, but I know a lot of people who tend to team up with the two jobs people see as 'most important' not to reduce que times, but to ensure that you covered for the percieved 'hardest jobs.'

In the end, neither side has substantial numbers. This is pure theorycraft.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Right, but your taking the common team of Tank+Heals out of the que's, so in my opinion, this actually hurts the DPS more than anyone else. Sure, sometimes a Tank + DPS, Heals + DPS will go on, but I know a lot of people who tend to team up with the two jobs people see as 'most important' not to reduce que times, but to ensure that you covered for the percieved 'hardest jobs.'

In the end, neither side has substantial numbers. This is pure theorycraft.

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Again, people who won't queue solo with the roulette, didn't likely do it before either, so there's 0 loss for the most part. Because there are those who will, even Tanks and Healers. I know some in some of my LS, never did a DF outside of a premade before 2.1, but with the roulette, they do it when others aren't on due to the bonuses.

Regardless, a single unit is easier to place than a duo. Like the idea I saw in another thread and posted here with the deck of cards.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Say you have 100 people, who prior to 2.1, only ever went in groups. Now with the roulette, say 75 of those people refuse to use it because they can't go in a group. The other 25 however, will. So even if those 75 don't, that's still 25 more people to fill spots with.

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I find it funny that you are excluding 75 people here when before you said:

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Allowing a single player is still the most optimal for filling groups that need people. As soon as you allow a second, you start excluding people.

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So on one hand you say the problem is avoiding exclusion (and hence it's better to have people in single units than in groups). But on the other you are excluding 75 people. So it's not really a problem of 'excluding' people, but of excluding the less number of people possible, correct?

But then, where are you getting these numbers? Because as fine as the theory is, we don't know the reality of it. You arbitrarily picked a percentage. Let's pick another arbitrary number. What if of those hundred only 10 queue? Are we benefitting more groups with those 10 than if we allowed the hundred to queue as groups?

Let's imagine that this is the case. From the hundred, only 10 queue. Since parties are formed by 4 people, that means other 30 people are benefited by those 10. Now let's imagine that of the original 100, if there were no restrictions to the roulette, 52 would go in pairs and 48 in groups of three. 48 people in groups of 3 means 16 groups with 1 spot to fill, so the trios are benefiting 16 people. We also have the duos: 52 people in groups of 2 means 26 groups with 2 spaces to fill, so they beneift 52 other people. In conclusion: The system with restrictions benefited 40 people. The system without restrictions benefits 68. So the current system is 28% less efficient than the unrestricted system.

See how by arbitrarily picking new numbers now the solo restriction seems like a bad idea?

Let's change them again just for the fun of maths: Of the 100, 30 queue solo. Again, each of them will end in groups of 4. So 90 people are benefited by the current system. If we kept the previous (arbitrary) assumption of how many trios and duos those 100 people would form if unrestricted, then we end up with the current system being 22% more efficient than an unrestricted one. Awesome! Except I don't think it's accurate to pretend that there will be basically the same amount of trios and duos, because duos are easier to form and, hence, there will be more. So let's (arbitrarily) tweak the numbers again: from 100, 76 form duos and 24 trios. 76 people in duos means 38 groups missing 2 people, so there's 76 people benefiting from the duos already. 24 people in trios means 8 groups missing 1 person, so they benefit 24 people. In conclusion: the actual system benefits 90 people, while the unrestricted system benefits 84. The difference in efficiency is of 6% in favor of the current system.

We could further tweak this by picking (arbitrary) numbers that denoted how many trios or duos would end up with no players to fill them, but then it would be all (arbitrary) because we have no numbers. Unless we ran a study covering the thousands and not just the "people in my linkshells".

So yeah, if we use arbitrary numbers, anyone can win. Instead let's go with this: the current system may or may not be getting you more people in duties, but what you are certainly doing is penalazing people for wanting to play together with friends and acquitances.

Those 75 people are already excluding themselves. They made the choice to group up instead of go after the roulette rewards. The term you want is opportunity cost. People want to claim that because they want to play with friends, they are being punished. Which is false. Nothing has changed from 2.0 to 2.1 for people who play in groups. The roulette rewards are meant to REWARD people for getting OUT of premade groups. People who feel it's a punishment aren't thinking properly. Again, opportunity cost. You can't do both, and there are pros and cons to each. If you choose one, you lose out on the benefits of the other. It's not a punishment.

Not to mention, you have to look at how DF works. It will throw people into a group as soon as they are available, so your groups of 2 and 3 cannot get matched with people already in groups that won't fit. It also means if those people have been waiting a while, they might be passed up by people that queued later.

Go read the deck of cards example earlier in the post, it's in another thread about this too. The larger the premade that's not a full group, the more difficult is for DF to make complete groups.

SE overdid it in FFXI by forcing people to group for almost all content (if not all ...).

Now SE is overdoing it again by making overthing soloable. Hell you can't enter CT with FC people, you can't do roulette with FC people, dailies are solo content also .... It is a MMORPG. If people want to solo, fine let them solo, but don't force people to not play with their FC.

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

SE overdid it in FFXI by forcing people to group for almost all content (if not all ...).

Now SE is overdoing it again by making overthing soloable. Hell you can't enter CT with FC people, you can't do roulette with FC people, dailies are solo content also .... It is a MMORPG. If people want to solo, fine let them solo, but don't force people to not play with their FC.

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i think the reason why they made ct that way is the same reason why duty roulette was introduced. for those who play solo. there are quite a few of them apparently.

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

i think the reason why they made ct that way is the same reason why duty roulette was introduced. for those who play solo. there are quite a few of them apparently.

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Actually, for CT, I think it was more that they didn't have the ability to make an alliance outside of the instance ready yet. Also, many people who solo, don't do it because they want to solo, though some do. Sometimes you just don't have any friends on for various reasons, and you want to get something done. You shouldn't have to have a huge friend base to get anything done.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Because people requested a heavily solo based MMORPG because they hated having to play with other people.

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Which pretty much defeats the purpose of a game like this, if people want to play a game solo they already have tons of those.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Which pretty much defeats the purpose of a game like this, if people want to play a game solo they already have tons of those.

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You do know that there's a huge difference between playing a single player game and playing solo in an MMO, right? They are FAR from the same playstyle.

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Originally Posted by ispano

You do know that there's a huge difference between playing a single player game and playing solo in an MMO, right? They are FAR from the same playstyle.

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So then what's the difference that you can show off to other people your gear which they have as well since it is basically an RPG where you can interact with other players? If you want to play solo what's the point? Are you going to all brag to each other about how epic you are in a tavern or something?

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Originally Posted by Skotie

So then what's difference that you can show off to other people your gear which they have as well since it is basically an RPG where you can interact with other players? If you want to play solo what's the point? Are you going to all brag to each other about how epic you are in a tavern or something?

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You just said it yourself. You have the ability to interact with other players. You can't do that in a single player game. Just because you can't see why one would like that, and not be forced to group for everything or most everything, doesn't mean it's wrong.

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Originally Posted by ispano

You just said it yourself. You have the ability to interact with other players. You can't do that in a single player game. Just because you can't see why one would like that, and not be forced to group for everything or most everything, doesn't mean it's wrong.

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A traditional RPG has all the elements a player needs and yes you have characters created who already do group with you and usually think your completely awesome by the end of the game. It also has all the places in a game world you would find in an MMO the only element seperating the two is other players.

Maybe I'm just crazy for being completely baffled why you would play an MMO if you want to play solo, I mean that would be like me wanting to join a sports team but not wanting to play with other people. The draw of the team is obvious to play with and aganist other people so to want to play solo seems like it would defeat the purpose of joining the team.

How are you guys still arguing about something that is unarguably going to go in in 2.2?

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Originally Posted by Taekrys

Why is "Duty Roulette" a solo feature?

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Originally Posted by Taekrys

So when I login searching for my FC friends to play together, I often find them already into a Duty roulette without waiting me. And obviously, since they cap earlier, they see no reason to doing more istances.

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I think this is an FC in-house issue? If duty roulette is pre-made friendly, they'd still not want to do it with you since they always cap earlier anyway? Seem like your FC just doesnt like dungeons and would like to run as few dungeons as possible?

Also capping myth through roulette isnt faster. Especially when you dont know the quality of the party members you get. Groups with trusted FC members can cap myth faster than roulette, even if it takes them more dungeons to do so.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

A traditional RPG has all the elements a player needs and yes you have characters created who already do group with you and usually think your completely awesome by the end of the game. It also has all the places in a game world you would find in an MMO the only element seperating the two is other players.

Maybe I'm just crazy for being completely baffled why you would play an MMO if you want to play solo, I mean that would be like me wanting to join a sports team but not wanting to play with other people. The draw of the team is obvious to play with and aganist other people so to want to play solo seems like it would defeat the purpose of joining the team.

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No, it's because you think MMO means you have to do everything with other people. That's not what it means. It simply means many people playing online in the same "world" It doesn't mean they always have to play with each other. An MMO is more like another world, another life. Your analogy is wrong. You would compare joining the soccer team to joining an LS or an FC, or even potentially a party. You also don't look at it from someone elses point of view, which is another reason why it "baffles" you.

I'm not sure why there's so much hate for duty roulette. I find it interesting to interact with random people, with no strings attached. I believe that's the purpose of duty finder. To get players to meet others outside of their comfort zone.

If you want to form a group with your circle of friends over and over again, you can still do that. There's nothing preventing it happening. You'll still be able to cap myth every week like you did before.

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Originally Posted by ispano

No, it's because you think MMO means you have to do everything with other people. That's not what it means. It simply means many people playing online in the same "world" It doesn't mean they always have to play with each other. An MMO is more like another world, another life. Your analogy is wrong. You would compare joining the soccer team to joining an LS or an FC, or even potentially a party. You also don't look at it from someone elses point of view, which is another reason why it "baffles" you.

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Yeah I guess it baffles me because I understand I'm not living in another world I'm playing a game with other people, and if I didn't want to play with them I wouldn't be playing a game with other people.