Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

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Originally Posted by Mags

This is how difficulty in video games have been since the beginning of their time. In the options of the old games, you can choose east, normal or hard settings. Well... this is how MMOs do it. This is nothing new. If someone is not good enough to meet the challenge, they do not get to progress.

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Nope, played FFXI, Dcuo, and Neverwinter. I'm sure not many games makes you rely on players as much as FFXIV does.

Look at the amount of players buying runs and how much business sellers are making. I don't think this is abundant in mmos that I've played.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I completely disagree with this statement. Instant death mechanics are commonplace in even the most critically acclaimed games. They aren't the product of a "lazy" and "talentless" designer. Platformers, in particular, are rife with instant deaths, whether it's getting eaten by the big fish in Super Mario Bros. 3 or touching spikes in a Mega Man game. Both of those series are considered great classics. MMOs have shifted to including more and more action mechanics these days (hence the big issue over latency). You might not like the direction MMOs have taken, and it's fine to say so, but that does not make them "cheap" or lazy.

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Mario uses instant death very rarely and Mega Man Wily stages where there's just spikes everywhere is lazy level design.

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Originally Posted by Mags

This is how difficulty in video games have been since the beginning ...

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And pull the reminding 7 down with him. Get idea.

The problem I see in content is over reliance on others. When we have that, great drama ensures and believe or not, slowly tears the community apart.

I can dodge stuff great, but others can't so what can I do. Ask them in the area of "..git good nubz"? Or be patient and waste time teaching. Yes, waste time teaching. Why waste? Because you never know how it is getting through with them.
What about the other guy the keeps failing? He either gets depressed for pulling everyone down with him and try all he can to get better and still fail. Or he can blame everyone else.

The problem lies here. Do we as a COMMUNITY have the patience to understand the failure of oneself and others.

And the flat answer is a fat "NO". You guys are going to hate me for this, but generally it is a big fat NO. And content like this does not help at all.

I seen close LSmates at each other throats due to Titan, I have seen players taking it too easy and casual ending up unwillingly offending others, I have also seen ppl taking stuff too easy and causal so as to troll others, I have seen ppl so hardcore that they are willing to stomp over others.

Is hard content good? Is easier contend good? Seriously I don't know anymore. I rather want content that allows ppl to clear if they place in some effort.

O ya one more thing.

In before generic relies that goes within the realm of ".....go play hellokitty online.."

It's Titan Extreme. It's not supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be incredibly difficult...

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

I can dodge stuff great, but others can't so what can I do. Ask them in the area of "..git good nubz"? Or be patient and waste time teaching.

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Its pretty much impossible to carry people in this game the way I have been able to in other MMOs. I was fine being the star player that drags others along for the ride. Sadly I cannot do that in this game on the level I could in others. So my choices are spend hours wiping on something because lesser skilled players in my group need that kind of time or kick them and try and find someone better.

One healer can pick up a bit if the other healer isn't to good. Dps can make up a little for other dps being low but not much and tanks can't really do anything about the other tank being bad. Pretty much everyone must be at a skill level that is much higher than what I am used to.

I am pretty sure this is a common problem in FFXIV. All of the content so far has been very easy once you reach a certain skill level. If you can make it to that point there is actually a lot of room for error.

Instant kill have no problem to me.
But instant kill on those like us living in low ping connection ppl ... Yea, this game killed me playing more...

Player A (<100ms ping) : "Why the f**k you just stand there?!" (On his screen)
Player B (>200ms ping) : "I didn't!!! I swear to god, I'm like miles away from Plumes!!!"
Player A : "Whatever.... You just sux !! Dropping party ! Wish you do not exist in our game!!"
Player B : (Speechless)

FC mates, used to get along and having fun!

This community is definitely tearing apart by God (SE) hands!!!

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Originally Posted by Mags

T
Then you did not play FFXI before Abyssea content was released. The game basically made you group with others after level 10 at minimum (BST excluded) if you wanted to level to 75. This is nothing new for an SE MMO, to make you want to group up with others to accomplish goals.

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I meant rely as in the way Rochetm explained it. In FFXI pre abyssea you can always recover in fights if you have skilled enough players while in FFXIV doesn't matter how skilled you are if you can't burn the heart when someone falls.

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

What about the other guy the keeps failing? He either gets depressed for pulling everyone down with him and try all he can to get better and still fail.

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That would be me.
I'm not new to raiding so I can multi task, memorize mechanics and execute them with little learning time.

Ask me to remember the whole of a boss' rotation and dodge stuff (pre-move) while healing, that's when I start failing over and over. This kind of content is not fun to me. It's just frustrating, when it ends instead of feeling happy and accomplished I just feel relieved that it's over.

Also, personal rant, whose brilliant idea was to make this an action RPG, anyway?
I'm pretty sure Final Fantasy was always about deep strategies, not about "dodging"... I already play Touhou for that crap. Leave it out of my RPG.

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Originally Posted by FMElan

Sorry, but you haven't been playing Mario very long if that's what you think. Mario uses instant death all the time. Instant death pits, scrolling screens that can crush you against a wall/push you off a cliff, lava, falling ceilings/crushing walls, fish that can swallow you whole...it's a staple of every classic Mario game.

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Mario is a platformer, though. Not sure why Raikki brought that up.

Even Final Fantasy used things like Doom, Death Sentence, Everybody's Grudge, Level 5 Death, Ultima, and so on to instantly kill you... but you never died because you "lacked the reflexes" (read: ping).

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Mario uses instant death very rarely

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Sorry, but you haven't been playing Mario very long if that's what you think. Mario uses instant death all the time. Instant death pits, scrolling screens that can crush you against a wall/push you off a cliff, lava, falling ceilings/crushing walls, fish that can swallow you whole...it's a staple of every classic Mario game.

yet more bad design from the devs.
been smashing my head against this for days now
like some of you have said i agree this fight is nigh impossible even for i90 group that knows every plume every landslide. there will ALWAYS be that one person that gets caught in landslide or plumes, because of that one instance of milisecond lag.
ive noticed this as much among jp players as well as en. people just cannot dodge consistently.

also i am willing to bet all these strawman apologists havent even tried the fight.

now also consider what you get at the end of this road. a worse weapon than relic+1. i can tell you i am going to down this once for the quest and then never bother again. i dont think anyone else will either

Gods forbid the extreme difficulty doesn't allow you to make mistakes

I honestly don't see the issue but then again, I play games like Demon Souls and Dark Souls on a regular basis, which are some of the most unforgiving games I've ever played and I enjoy them immensely.

The feeling of beating a boss in those games feels the same way it does the first time I beat a difficult boss like Titan.

Not to mention Titan is a very good example of a good MMO boss fight. Garuda is extremely boring in all modes. There's nothing remotely difficult about her fights as long as you have some knowledge of the fight. Ifrit is the same except for Eruption, which is still stunnable some of the time. Titan is honestly the only boss in this game I've enjoyed beating.

Insta-kill moves are so much more enjoyable than "Oh hey, let's just sit here and let our healers AoE heal and we don't bother doing anything but DPS.". Making EVERYONE work is so much more enjoyable. Making tanks do tank swaps on most new content was a great move, too. If you don't want to rely on other players I advice you don't play an MMORPG which, by definition, is about playing with other players.

This level of content is meant to be played by the hardcore combat players who enjoy tough battles. They shouldn't have to change their content so everyone can do everything. The casual players have their casual content and you get more casual content than we get hardcore content. Titan and Twintania are really the only hardcore content we have.

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

now also consider what you get at the end of this road. a worse weapon than relic+1. i can tell you i am going to down this once for the quest and then never bother again. i dont think anyone else will either

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Not all the weapons are worse than all Relic +1. Some of them are better, while some are worse. Not to mention the bucklers are in there, too, which allow someone like a BLM to use their ilvl95 Allagan weapon. Not to mention there are plenty of people farming them repeatedly already. A lot of us enjoy it and claiming that no one else will do it after the quest is just silly.


As for the person wondering why they're turning it into an Action-RPG, look at the direction they've been taking the FF series. FF15 is completely action-based now.

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

yet more bad design from the devs.
been smashing my head against this for days now
like some of you have said i agree this fight is nigh impossible even for i90 group that knows every plume every landslide. there will ALWAYS be that one person that gets caught in landslide or plumes, because of that one instance of milisecond lag.
ive noticed this as much among jp players as well as en. people just cannot dodge consistently.

also i am willing to bet all these strawman apologists havent even tried the fight.

now also consider what you get at the end of this road. a worse weapon than relic+1. i can tell you i am going to down this once for the quest and then never bother again. i dont think anyone else will either

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uhm, some of the weapons are better then relics +1 and dont forget the accessories and fast tomes :D

who really has problems with plumes can just stay at a single spot, eat 1 plume, get 1 heal and the fight goes on
we'd a summoner with some "plume problems", after doing it that way we killed titan, no big deal

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

also i am willing to bet all these strawman apologists havent even tried the fight..

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If we're using this logic, let's go back to not that long ago when people were complaining that Titan Hard was "impossible" because of "getting hit by landslides and weight when I was no near where it."

...Which seemingly have vanished. Plenty of people are doing (and clearing) Ifrit Extreme so if the fight truly is "impossible", no one should have been on Ifrit Extreme yet.

Yoshida wanted to create content for so called casual players, and so called hardcore players. So there is both content, and this problem comes where people hit the wall of hard content, and don't realize it isn't made with them in mind. There are players who want all content to be accessible for them, which conflicts with this idea and causes further conflicts when they force themselves into groups and drag the team down.

It sounds harsh but for a lot of players it is really enjoyable and refreshing to have content this unforgiving, and this should be respected. It would be very smooth and drama-free if players realized their own limitations.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yoshida wanted to create content for so called casual players, and so called hardcore players. So there is both content, and this problem comes where people hit the wall of hard content, and don't realize it isn't made with them in mind. There are players who want all content to be accessible for them, which conflicts with this idea and causes further conflicts when they force themselves into groups and drag the team down.

It sounds harsh but for a lot of players it is really enjoyable and refreshing to have content this unforgiving, and this should be respected. It would be very smooth and drama-free if players realized their own limitations.

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thats the best statement I've read for the entire week

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

If we're using this logic, let's go back to not that long ago when people were complaining that Titan Hard was "impossible" because of "getting hit by landslides and weight when I was no near where it."

...Which seemingly have vanished. Plenty of people are doing (and clearing) Ifrit Extreme so if the fight truly is "impossible", no one should have been on Ifrit Extreme yet.

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Not to mention the number of people claiming Twintania to be impossible until BlueGartyr completed Turn 5.

But, then again, the situation isn't nearly comparable. Twintania lasted, what? 1-2 months? Maybe a little longer? Titan Extreme was beaten within the first 24 hours, I'm almost positive.

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Originally Posted by FMElan

Not to mention the number of people claiming Twintania to be impossible until BlueGartyr completed Turn 5.

But, then again, the situation isn't nearly comparable. Twintania lasted, what? 1-2 months? Maybe a little longer? Titan Extreme was beaten within the first 24 hours, I'm almost positive.

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It was. I logged in the day after the patch due to the fact I was ill and there was already people farming these Primals. There were people with Garuda mounts, people with Ifrit gear and so on... I was completely surprised by how fast it was done. Though, I guess when Twintania came no one had the gear to deal with it like they did with the new Primals. Maybe if they release ilvl100 gear and build Primal fights around people with that level gear we might see the same thing as seen with Twintania.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yoshida wanted >clip<

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If the only reason some folks couldn't kill this is because they lack any skill I would --and do-- agree with you, but we all know that isn't the only trouble people are having. Calling the EX primals hardcore is a stretch at best; as others have pointed out, look how fast and easily they went onto farm mode.

I'm fine with strategies and co-ordination barring people from some content, but "this is not it. this. is not. it." <~ old movie reference.

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Originally Posted by SirGazuntai

It was. I logged in the day after the patch due to the fact I was ill and there was already people farming these Primals. There were people with Garuda mounts, people with Ifrit gear and so on... I was completely surprised by how fast it was done. Though, I guess when Twintania came no one had the gear to deal with it like they did with the new Primals. Maybe if they release ilvl100 gear and build Primal fights around people with that level gear we might see the same thing as seen with Twintania.

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It's not really that big of a surprise. By the time Twintania was beaten, most players only had 6-10 shots at beating the content, due to the weekly lockout. With the Extreme Primals, they could run 6-10 times in the first day, and their memory of the fight would be a hell of a lot fresher. Even if they release i100 gear and build Primals around that level, it's not going to make much of a difference, since skilled players outfitted in full i90 gear will slam into the wall over and over until they've memorized the entire fight and have it cleared by the next day.

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

The problem I see in content is over reliance on others. When we have that, great drama ensures and believe or not, slowly tears the community apart.

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This is the nature of the beast, and there is no other way to do difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Doo

I meant rely as in the way Rochetm explained it. In FFXI pre abyssea you can always recover in fights if you have skilled enough players while in FFXIV doesn't matter how skilled you are if you can't burn the heart when someone falls.

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And therein lies the challenge and difficulty. It is not a new concept in MMOs, nor will it pass anytime soon. Stuff on the ground, move out of the way. Its simple really, and you can somewhat predict it's pattern or at the very least know when it might occur. The difficulty isn't in the individual but the team as a whole to coordinate the pattern.

Same with needing enough DPS to burn a node before a wipe mechanic pops. Its simple gear check.

Did it yesterday, pretty intense and fun fight.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Did it yesterday, pretty intense and fun fight.

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ya but maybe a bit unforgiving. network delay sometimes feels more like the old .3s. haven't had this many issues in any high level instance since the patch.

Really, I find it to be extremely fun. Titan HM was the best fight in the game, now Titan EM is.

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

This game heavily relies on Instant Kill Mechanics to make content difficult. Titan is the only fight IN THE ENTIRE GAME that has the possibility to completely remove you from the fight. On top of pretty much every action he does being an instant kill.

Constant dodging is not only trivial, but frustrating when if you screw up one time your done. I clear twintania weekly, and even twisters aren't as punishing as landslide. Sick of this being considered "fun" Content when half the people have difficulty getting out of ridiculous plumes. Please stop with all these instant kill mechanics that are way to over punishing.

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Every game has its masochists, and this one is no different.

I absolutely love Titan Extreme and it's mechanics and you can perfectly raise someone as long as s/he didn't fall and knows when to raise, especially with the new invulnerability raise gives you.

To those people saying FFXI was hard... really? that game didn't have a -single- fight that was remotely hard after the first day. AV was broken for years and the only way to kill it was by exploiting the terrain and PW only took stupidly long time to kill, like everything you did in XI.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

Every game has its masochists, and this one is no different.

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*sees post, want to hit reply button*
*sees signture*
*only post these 3 lines of text*

extreme mode, extremely punishing mechanics, nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by FMElan

Sorry, but you haven't been playing Mario very long if that's what you think. Mario uses instant death all the time. Instant death pits, scrolling screens that can crush you against a wall/push you off a cliff, lava, falling ceilings/crushing walls, fish that can swallow you whole...it's a staple of every classic Mario game.

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I was thinking more along the lines of enemies. You're right, there are many other things I forgot about.

Lol I saw a lot of times people using " poor development " when talking about the instakill mechanics and the only thing that I read was " let me equip to the teeth so I can do a face roll fight because I don't want to bother avoiding things " (excluding the high latency people, I know that this is annoying but I play with 300-400 of ping and I managed to avoid AoE almost always

I thought Titan Extreme was pretty fun, for the first couple of days after the patch (I didn't seriously try to beat it, though--I wanted to check out other stuff). Then after the last maintenance, I started getting pause-and-fast-forward lag in all the trials.... Garuda is still playable, for the most part. Ultima and Titan are not.

Personally I don't think Titan EX is hard enough. Way too many people have beaten it.

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Originally Posted by Melithea

Personally I don't think Titan EX is hard enough. Way too many people have beaten it.

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Cool, so where you got the numbers?

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Lol I saw a lot of times people using " poor development " when talking about the instakill mechanics and the only thing that I read was " let me equip to the teeth so I can do a face roll fight because I don't want to bother avoiding things " (excluding the high latency people, I know that this is annoying but I play with 300-400 of ping and I managed to avoid AoE almost always

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What people are tired is of intant kill AoE. You don't see anyone complaining about Shriek/Aerial Blast, or Ultima's balls, or Hellfire, or Super Cyclone, or Rot....

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

What people are tired is of intant kill AoE. You don't see anyone complaining about Shriek/Aerial Blast, or Ultima's balls, or Hellfire, or Super Cyclone, or Rot....

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^ that. People don't even complain about divebomb either. I think they would complain about twister, but it's more forgiving now.

If it wasn't an avoidable instant kill, it'd be the "Healers fault" they died, and not their own inability to avoid damage.

Ive played plenty of MMOs that don't use instant kill mechanics in raid fights, the result is just extra pressure eon healers to make up for crap players not avoiding damage when they should.

Imagine a world where Landslides didn't knockback and Weights did half the damage they currently do. Titan strats would involved spreading out in a circle, tunneling Titan and never moving because nothing could possibly kill you.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

What people are tired is of intant kill AoE. You don't see anyone complaining about Shriek/Aerial Blast, or Ultima's balls, or Hellfire, or Super Cyclone, or Rot....

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There's not a single AoE in this fight that insta kills you unless you're rolling with 3k HP, WotL hit for LESS than they do in HM, Bombs don't kill you unless you eat more than one at the same time, tumults don't insta-kill you, the only AoE in there that can Kill you in a single hit is Earthen Fury, and that only happens if you fail to kill the heart, which fails in the same category as Ultima's balls, Hellfire and Aerial Blast.

I have been failing to beat Titan Ex for a good while now, and I still love the fight. Going by the extreme sense of relief I got from beating Garuda Extreme, I think it will be worth the effort. Specially once I get that Dual Haken.

I don't think I should have to say this but the trial is probably called EXTREME for a reason. It's not casual content, it's hardcore content. That means you and your party need to be at the top of their game to beat it. If you don't have what it takes you're just not good enough, and you can either deal with that and stick to something easier, or you can get better.

I don't see how lag is a valid reason to nerf the fight either. That is an entirely personal problem and you should get something done about it. Ruining a great fight for people who have been yearning for a challenge from this game is not the way to go about it. If it was up to me, I would even have these primals be necessary to get the zenith relic too. This is how hard it should be to get the best (or second best now) weapon in the game.

everything in this game is dodge AOE, kill adds, repeat. then a gear check pops up in some fights which means no matter how good you are you fail if your gear is not a high enough ilevel.

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

Ok, can you dodge this and this and this with bombs and adds then this and this.

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The compounding nature of your post had me, and then you did this, and I lost it. Spit coffee and toast all over the computer and Titan killed me. Yeah, I alt+tabbed that landslide. So what?

In all seriousness, I haven't tried extreme yet. It looks fun. It looks chaotic. It looks like people actually have to be coordinated. The videos (which I hate watching videos in advance, but figured I might as well considering how hair-trigger people will be in this fight) make it look so easy. And your quote just sounded so innocent.

Anyway, I laughed.