Tank-specific tips for Extreme Primals

For Garuda the ROH animation is too long so my tank buddies suggest only building up to savage blade to grab their sister. MT (PLD) can Stoneskin self before WW. Both Garuda and the sisters will glow with a red aura as they cast slipstream. They also postrate and flex their wings. If the tank can recognize this animation it can help them avoid slipstream.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

For Garuda the ROH animation is too long....

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It doesn't matter, as long as you are in-range to start the skill you can go where ever you would like and it will still apply the damage, debuff, and enmity.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Not always the 2nd most hate. It actually randomly chooses someone between the 1st or 2nd on Garuda's hate list.

I usually OT this fight, and I'm rarely #2 on enmity. As a Warrior, I don't even use Defiance at all in this fight, and I generally use the Storm's Eye and Storm's Path combos more than the Butcher's Block combo when hitting Garuda. My enmity is actually pretty low. In any case, I always Provoke the Spiny Plume to start every phase. A DPS or Healer getting Spiny off the bat isn't the worst thing either. In many ways, it actually works out better.

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A healer getting the spiny plume can be problematic but it rarely happens if the WHM uses Shroud whenever it's up (SCH will most probably never get it). As OT you should still make a conscious effort to be at least ahead of the healers on Garuda's hate list to make the fight smoother.

I have off-tanked this fight many many times and I never provoke first, maybe our strategy is weird but it hasn't failed us yet. Since it never goes to the off tank I let it stay on whoever it attaches to (or mt can provoke if you want). Once it reaches 2 stacks I provoke it and throw a tomahawk or two at it, then I just proceed to heavy swing until it is at 1/3 health. Even healers can't take it from me. The only danger is if someone accidently attacks the spiny before I provoke as it makes it harder to get enmity.

Another tip: If your dps does not kill suprana before they jump, you can tank limitbreak with 1 bar to save your party. Use the LB just after they jump and only use the LB if your ranged can't kill it in the few seconds you have when they appears in the middle of the map.

There are many ways to deal with the Spiny Plume. As long as nobody takes 3 stacks from it, that's all that really matters.

As OT, there are two reasons I start every phase by Provoking the Spiny Plume:

1. During the pocket phase, having the Spiny Plume on me allows me to pull it to the side, away from the group and away from Garuda. Everyone else stacks on top of Garuda, causing the Razor Plumes to also stack on top of Garuda. This way, when we AoE the Razor Plumes, the AoE hits Garuda as well. More damage on Garuda is always a good thing. Occasionally, some Razor Plumes attach to me, but these ones are ignored since I can survive them exploding on top of me.
   
   
2. During the sisters phase, Provoking the Spiny Plume off the bat allows for me to Provoke Suparna away from the MT once it cools down. The MT Provokes the Spiny Plume off of me while I Provoke Suparna off the MT. Tis makes it safer for melee to hit Suparna and eliminates the risk of the MT getting double Wicked Wheeled for a second time that phase.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

This would certainly work well as a countermeasure for tanks who aren't familiar with when the Incinerates occur. One issue I see with this method is during Nails when the tank needs to face Ifrit in a specific direction so that it doesn't hit the melee DPS as they're killing the nails that are really close to Ifrit.

Generally, the way we've been doing it was to tank swap during periods where there won't be an Incinerate for several seconds, so that there is no risk of both tanks taking the same Incinerate.

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The general idea is to have the tanks themselves and ranged kill those nails. In the unlikely event you have NO ranged though...

Been trying my hand at making some tank perspective videos. Made a Garuda extreme guide. Maybe some of you can find it helpful or and provide any other tips, and worse case you can make fun of my bad tanking. If it helps at all let me know and ill gladly work on other primals and fight videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1RxqZHM1Sc

This is our tanking sequence vs Ifrit on the final nails phase:

• Warrior provokes after the first Incinerate after he spawns nails.
  
• Paladin provokes after the Warrior takes three Incinerates (mitigated with Vengeance).
  
• Ifrit will now cast Infernal Howl on a healer, and then turn back around and do three Incinerates to the Paladin (mitigated with Sentinel)
  
• Ifrit will then cast: Eruption, then Infernal Howl on a healer, and then turn back around to do three more Incinerates. Paladin uses Hallowed Ground to negate all three.
  
• By the time Ifrit casts Incinerate again, the stacks on the Paladin have expired. Warrior provokes after 3 from here.

Using this technique, the Paladin keeps Ifrit for the 3/4 of the final phase, taking 9 Incinerates in a row but never going above three stacks. It gives the Warrior complete freedom to drop Defiance and help kill nails. It gives Healers a lot of breathing room to keep the DPS topped up. The Infernal Fetters are pretty much a non-factor since you're taking out two tank swaps from the entire phase. It makes everything super easy.

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Originally Posted by Ragma

Been trying my hand at making some tank perspective videos. Made a Garuda extreme guide. Maybe some of you can find it helpful or and provide any other tips, and worse case you can make fun of my bad tanking. If it helps at all let me know and ill gladly work on other primals and fight videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1RxqZHM1Sc

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Some feedback:



(1) Since you are taking little damage prior to first sister phase, you don't need to prep RoH for Suparna -- just use Fight or Flight and lob while healer doesn't panic or some silliness. Keeps everybody safe. Note that Suparna always spawns on the west side of Garuda.

(2) You really should focus target on Garuda so you can see the cast without guessing by animation. Additionally, if you didn't spend the time running around to get off the RoH, you'll be able to turn Garuda to the left and Suparna to the right to avoid hitting the pillar with Slipstream. Not a huge deal, but it helps.

(3) Garuda uses Friction on someone else. The one that may go after you is cast by Chirada. It doesn't necessarily appear at all if Chirada targets someone else.

(4) Should mention what cooldowns you're using. For PLD, use either Sentinel or both Foresight and Rampart for each double WW (you can't have Sentinel due to CD time) -- go head and use Sentinel for the first. You only have one double WW, so Sentinel alone is enough.

(5) Garuda's second WW in the first sister phase is after second Slipstream -> Downburst. Prepare to use cooldowns when she uses Slipstream.

(6) There is no double WW after Chirada is dead. Suparna can only cast WW while Chirada is alive. Garuda can only cast WW while Suparna is alive. Garuda is also invulnerable while Suparna is alive, and both sisters gain a damage resistance buff depending on the distance between the two (minimum 1 stack).

(7) The entire point of the double WW method is that you can have melee classes. If you have all ranged, the OT takes Suparna and the DPS kill it first. In that method, you can either chew up Chirada second or totally ignore Chirada and just hammer Garuda, using tank LB to survive nuke every sister phase.

(8) OT should not be deliberately damaging the spiny in any phase. That is unnecessary risk. The MT isn't going to lose Garuda, so once you provoke at two stacks, you have the perfect amount of time to reduce the spiny's HP without risking accidentally frying it and causing a wipe. Having the OT hit it is especially risky if you're holding Garuda near the middle, where it's really easy for a stray Holy to splat the weakened Spiny.

(9) The eye phase cue for provoking spiny is Garuda's second Slipstream. Avoid it and take the spiny at that time.

(10) Generally inadvisable to use LB on Chirada. In case of screwup, you will need tank LB to survive after jump.

Since you're doing split method, PLD MT is fine, but most groups will opt for double WW method because it's easier for one person to get everything right than for 6 people to get everything right.

My reply is majorly late, but for those still struggling:

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Garuda
To quickly and safely pick up your assigned sister, build up your combo with the first two hits (Fast Blade>Savage Blade or Heavy Swing>Skull Sunder) on Garuda. Then, hit a Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block on your assigned sister as soon as they spawn. Pre-emptively using an offensive cooldown helps with snap aggro too. Provoke is unnecessary here and should not be used in this situation. This is a basic and essential tanking technique and you should probably be already familiar with it.

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A simple Shield Lob tends to snag me Suparna relatively easily. Then I Circle of Scorn, Flash, and Spirits Within as well.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

During each sisters phase, predict the incoming burst damage (Wicked Wheel/Downburst) and pre-emptively pop a defensive cooldown to mitigate it. If you're tanking Garuda + Suparna, the burst occurs after they teleport and very shortly after Suparna casts Friction. It also helps to apply Rage of Halone / Storm's Path on one or both targets beforehand. If you're tanking Chirada, you'll get a red targeting symbol on your character a couple of seconds before it happens.

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First phase, it's always after Friction from Suparna. Suparna/Garuda jump after Chirada takes a certain amount of damage, so the fewer people on Chirada the less likely they are to jump before the Friction and Wicked Wheel. We run a lot of ranged and burst Suparna down first. With one melee on Chirada, Suparna dies before they jump 90% of the time.

Second sisters phase, double Wicked Wheel will always come after Suparna casts her Slipstream.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Some feedback:
(4) Should mention what cooldowns you're using. For PLD, use either Sentinel or both Foresight and Rampart for each double WW (you can't have Sentinel due to CD time) -- go head and use Sentinel for the first. You only have one double WW, so Sentinel alone is enough.

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Not entirely true. I can usually have my Sentinel up a few seconds before the next double Wicked Wheel. It's not a guarantee, but it is possible to do, even with really high DPS.

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Originally Posted by Serneum

Not entirely true. I can usually have my Sentinel up a few seconds before the next double Wicked Wheel. It's not a guarantee, but it is possible to do, even with really high DPS.

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After the initial sisters phase, Garuda transitions into the next phase after a certain amount of time or when she reaches 55% HP, whichever comes first.

Therefore, the duration between the first two sisters phases varies, depending on how much DPS you have. You might have Sentinel barely before the next Wicked Wheel, but someone else's group might have better DPS.

It's bad game design, but melee really do make Garuda X a lot more difficult than it has to be. I've only beaten it once at this point (though I've watched and read a ton of guides and practiced quite a bit before my win), but the best method seems to be having the MT pulls Garuda and Suparna, OT pulls Chirada. All DPS focus Suparna and then switch to Chirada.

Benefits:

1. The tanks only ever have to worry about provoking spiny. Currently, with the more popular method of killing Chirada first, if spiny lands on the MT, the OT will have to provoke the spiny once Chirada is dead and the MT will have to eat a second DWW. If Suparna is focused and killed first, the MT only has to worry about one DWW and the OT only has to worry about Chirada's downburst, which will never one shot him. Plus, with Suparna dying quickly, the MT won't have to dance around as many times avoiding double Slipstreams. Another advantage to this method is no teleport or feather rain thanks to Suparna dying before Chirada.

All in all, everything's easier. The MT only has one huge burst he has to CD up for each twister phase and provoking is always saved for the spiny plume alone. Plus you get to avoid mechanics like Feather Rain all together.

I suppose you could still do this method with one Melee DPS on Chirada as long as your ranged DPS was strong enough to three man down Suparna off the MT quickly.


The method I used in my first kill was all ranged, but I OT Suparna instead of Chirada. In the circle phase, I would provoke spiny first and keep it away from the group. In the twister phase, the MT grabbed Garuda, Chirada and spiney first and I took Suparna. The DPS killed Suparna off of me first, and I would then provoke the spiney off the MT. DPS switches to Chirada and kills her (MT would have to provoke spiny back near the end). This method is a lot more on the MT, having to hold two adds the whole time, but since there are no Wicked Wheels once Suparna dies, all he had to really worry about was eatting a single Wheel + Chirada's downburst and then when Suparna was dead, just the Chirada downburst. So, the damage he took wasn't too bad after Suparna was dead. But again, in this method, a Melee DPS would have had to dodge Suparna's WW and the range is so huge, it's very risky even if the tank tries to get Suparna into a corner (and sometimes, she simply doesn't want to move with you once the tornado's spawn). A Dragoon would be a little easier, since the can Elusive jump during Friction and then Spineshatter/dragonfire (depending on where the spiny is) back in.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Therefore, the duration between the first two sisters phases varies, depending on how much DPS you have. You might have Sentinel barely before the next Wicked Wheel, but someone else's group might have better DPS.

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I can agree with that. The group I usually run with from my FC tends to have relatively high DPS (Ex: we kill Garuda HM before the middle calm phase ever happens and we typically don't get a third sisters phase in Garuda Ex) and I can usually get Sentinel back before the double Wicked Wheel in the second sisters phase. If I know it won't be up, I prefer to use Hallowed Ground because I just don't trust the other cooldowns to save me even when used together. If a group had a lot of burst damage or a lot of crits on a specific run, I could definitely see the skill only being up some of the time, though

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

It's bad game design, but melee really do make Garuda X a lot more difficult than it has to be.

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The way SE designed the fight was for the DPS to tank Chirada (sharing downburst damage), OT to tank Surpana and MT to keep Garuda. It's hardly their fault nobody (except JPs) is doing the fight the way they originally intended which is a safer method (no double wicked wheels) and a lot more melee friendly.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

The way SE designed the fight was for the DPS to tank Chirada (sharing downburst damage), OT to tank Surpana and MT to keep Garuda. It's hardly their fault nobody (except JPs) is doing the fight the way they originally intended which is a safer method (no double wicked wheels) and a lot more melee friendly.

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I've never liked this method of doing Garuda EX.

I don't like it because it is a big compromise to DPS output. If melee has aggro on Chirada, he no longer has full access to flanking or rear attacks. Meanwhile, casters have to dodge Slipstreams and interrupt their spell casts.

The supposed benefits of handling Chirada this way are: no double wicked wheels and more melee-friendly. However, I've never perceived double wicked wheels as something that couldn't be handled with better cooldown usage from tanks and healers.

As for melee, even in low DPS groups, I've found that having DPS kill Chirada and then having the OT Provoke Suparna from the MT works perfectly. There is no risk of melee getting hit by Wicked Wheel. The OT needs to Provoke the Spiny Plume to start every Sisters + Great Whirlwind phase. By the time the MT needs to Provoke the Spiny from him, Provoke will have cooled down and Chirada should be dead.

In high DPS groups, we simply zerg down Chirada and melee waits for Garuda to Wicked Wheel before diving in. Suparna should be dead before Garuda Wicked Wheels again.

This might not be what S-E intended, but I think it is the more efficient strategy.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I've only beaten it once at this point (though I've watched and read a ton of guides and practiced quite a bit before my win), but the best method seems to be having the MT pulls Garuda and Suparna, OT pulls Chirada. All DPS focus Suparna and then switch to Chirada.

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If you're all ranged, I honestly don't see a good reason not to ignore Chirada altogether and tank LB to survive link. You'll kill Garuda much faster this way.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Currently, with the more popular method of killing Chirada first, if spiney lands on the MT, the OT will have to provoke the spiney once Chirada is dead and the MT will have to eat a second DWW.

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This is just incorrect. First, with Chirada dead, Suparna can't use Wicked Wheel. The MT will never have to eat two double WW unless the DPS is split between the sisters or your DPS is so bad that you're 2/3 of the way through the fight and still haven't downed either sister. Once Chirada is down, you eat one WW from Garuda, which hits you for 2500-3000 damage on WAR after IB and Foresight -- nothing to write home about. The threat with that particular screwup is that your melee DPS are in range of Garuda's WW, which can one-shot them. Additionally, it's the OT's job to take the spiny at the start of sister phase. There are no tornadoes for a while, so you just RoH/BB on Chirada, then provoke and Lobahawk the spiny. Most of the OT's job can be written as "don't panic!"

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

The method I used in my first kill

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Gods, what a mess. As MT, you barely get any relief from dropping Suparna's WW because you get 2/3 of it in the form of Chirada's Downburst immediately before Garuda's WW. That MT is carrying the hell out of your group if he's taking Chirada, spiny, and Garuda all at once. The reason you don't do that is that unless your tank has memorized the exact timing of everything and can do it with no HUD at all, you can't see three targets at once. MT has Garuda on focus and a sister targeted, and that's all you can see at once -- while grabbing the spiny, your tank is literally blindfolded. More power to him if he can do it, but it's just plain inadvisable.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

This is just incorrect. First, with Chirada dead, Suparna can't use Wicked Wheel. The MT will never have to eat two double WW unless the DPS is split between the sisters or your DPS is so bad that you're 2/3 of the way through the fight and still haven't downed either sister. Once Chirada is down, you eat one WW from Garuda, which hits you for 2500-3000 damage on WAR after IB and Foresight -- nothing to write home about. The threat with that particular screwup is that your melee DPS are in range of Garuda's WW, which can one-shot them. Additionally, it's the OT's job to take the spiny at the start of sister phase. There are no tornadoes for a while, so you just RoH/BB on Chirada, then provoke and Lobahawk the spiny. Most of the OT's job can be written as "don't panic!"

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My bad on the second DWW. Also, most groups I've went into have told me (as OT) not to touch the spiny in twisters until someone has 2 stacks. Plus, I've found that at times, the spiny has to be provoked more than once in twisters. If you're trying to provoke spiny at the beginning of twisters as OT, I've found that Provoke normally isn't available when Chirada dies and the MT needs to provoke spiny from you. And then, if you provoke Suparna once provoke is available, the spiny will get to 2 stacks on the MT when your provoke is still on CD. Your method would make the most sense if the timing didn't get so weird at times with provoke and spiny. As is, you run the risk of getting super tornadoed due to provoke being down when you need it.

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Gods, what a mess. As MT, you barely get any relief from dropping Suparna's WW because you get 2/3 of it in the form of Chirada's Downburst immediately before Garuda's WW. That MT is carrying the hell out of your group if he's taking Chirada, spiny, and Garuda all at once. The reason you don't do that is that unless your tank has memorized the exact timing of everything and can do it with no HUD at all, you can't see three targets at once. MT has Garuda on focus and a sister targeted, and that's all you can see at once -- while grabbing the spiny, your tank is literally blindfolded. More power to him if he can do it, but it's just plain inadvisable.

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Our MT is i90 and amazing. :D He did all of that on his own. Yes, he carried the group (me), but he's the leader of our FC and again, he's awesome. Plus, you're definitely over reacting a bit. You don't have to keep the spiny targeted. Garuda is already on you, so, you RoH chirada, tab to spiny/provoke, then run to your corner. Once you get two stacks, you run back in so the OT can provoke. No blindfold needed.

I always recommend the OT vokes the spiney right away. Just makes things smoother especially in a DF group. I always MT Garuda EX and knowing the timing of my voke makes things much easier. Especially during twisters phase I know Suprana will be dead by the time I need to voke it off the OT making running to the middle less risky. During plumes phase the OT vokes it and takes it away from the clump so they can be AoEed down. If the OT takes it right away, he will hit 2 stacks right when Garuda does her 2nd slipstream, again making it easier on the MT.

Plus mages and DPS freak out when the spiney is on them.

I still think Garuda MT is the hardest fight to tank. (not that any are that hard) Anything you do to make it easier on the MT will make your farming much smoother.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

In high DPS groups, we simply zerg down Chirada and melee waits for Garuda to Wicked Wheel before diving in. Suparna should be dead before Garuda Wicked Wheels again.

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This is what I like to do in my groups. It is annoying when the OT provokes Suparna through the twisters in these high DPS groups, because Suparna will be at around half when they provoke, and always Slipstreams when crossing the tornado. This leaves melee without any ability to DPS until Suparna is near dead, and they gotta walk back and forth between the tornado 2-3 times. It is much easier to leave on MT and the DD will down before Garuda's second WW. This is for high dps groups as stated though. If someone has died in phase transitions for one reason or another, definitely play it safe.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

My bad on the second DWW. Also, most groups I've went into have told me (as OT) not to touch the spiney in twisters until someone has 2 stacks.

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Politely tell them that they have no idea what they're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Plus, I've found that at times, the spiney has to be provoked more than once in twisters.

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That can technically happen if you provoke before it sets aggro (immediately at spawn, when you should be hitting Chirada) or if you don't hit it with additional enmity after provoke (MT cooldowns will generate enough enmity to take it back). All of this is, again, a matter of not panicking.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

If you're trying to provoke spiney at the beginning of twisters as OT, I've found that Provoke normally isn't available when Chirada dies and the MT needs to provoke spiney from you.

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It will always be available in time for the swap, hitting 2 stacks just as Provoke comes off cooldown (it applies 1 stack every 20 seconds).

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

And then, if you provoke Suparna once provoke is available, the spiney will get to 2 stacks on the MT when your provoke is still on CD.

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There's not enough time for it to go off at all -- you swap once only per phase. The MT will then damage the spiny to prepare for jump and, when Garuda jumps, finishes the Spiny. You will never be hit by supercyclone.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

It will always be available in time for the swap, hitting 2 stacks just as Provoke comes off cooldown (it applies 1 stack every 20 seconds).

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It doesn't unfortunately. Spiny sometimes can apply 1 stack right away or before the first 20 seconds is over. In solo healing party, if I OT, I usually find myself waiting on Provoke to be off CD (I pull suparna away from MT so melee can hit her safely) if I use it on Spiny right as it spawns.

Damn Square was trolling me, actually North on Ifrit is LEFT from the spawn point non straight forwar ^^ Now I understand my discussions with other tanks XD

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

It doesn't unfortunately. Spiny sometimes can apply 1 stack right away or before the first 20 seconds is over.

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This has been my experience as well. It seems the safer bet is to just leave Garuda and Suparna on the MT the whole time. This way, provoke is always available for spiny and once Chirada is dead, all melee have to do is wait for Garuda to WW and then jump in to finish off Suparna. Plus, with two healers on the MT at that point, there's no reason he should die once Chirada is down.

I have a question though. How do you handle pulling the spiny as MT mostly? When I tab to spiny in twisters, I can't see Suparna at all. Do you just let the OT sit with two stacks until after she slipstreams for the second time before moving in to tab/provoke the spiny? I find that often times, I'll get hit because I go in to provoke and she slip streams me from behind.

The safest bet is to rage of halone chirada, provoke and shield lob spiny at start followed by flash and circle of scorn. Depends on your DPS, MT will either provoke spiny off you first or you provoke Suparna off him first. There's really no need for melee to risk it with Wicked Wheel.
If you zoom out all the way, Suparna should still be on the bottom of your screen. I usually bait the slipstream first to go provoke safely since you got 20 seconds is over. Of course, I see it as soon as OT has 2 stacks so that's my cue for baiting. If you mess up the timing, just use a CD to eat it. Slipstream doesn't hurt that bad.

Also, for the all ranged/ignore Chirada method....

The OT is in charge of spiny the whole time (MT having to provoke in the circle once, and then in twisters if it goes to the OT first) and all range focus Suparna and then switch to Garuda? Does Chirada ever shriek early or is it always when Garuda does it? Also, should the tank LB as soon as he enters the spiny bubble or wait until Garuda/Chirada appear? Do I have all of that right? Once again, this sucks for melee, but I'd really like to give this method a shot.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

The safest bet is to rage of halone chirada, provoke and shield lob spiny at start followed by flash and circle of scorn. Depends on your DPS, MT will either provoke spiny off you first or you provoke Suparna off him first. There's really no need for melee to risk it with Wicked Wheel.

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I'm still learning this fight, for sure, but I just find that too many things can go wrong here. For instance, I've had the DD pull Chirada off of me when I tabbed to provoke spiny. I RoH as soon as she appeared, CoS, RoH (Both uncomboed.. just trying to get some quick threat so I could grab spiny quickly), tabbed to spiny, provoked, lobbed, ran toward my corner and Chirada turned and raced towards the Bard before I could do anything else. I also once had a situation where I provoked both spiny and Chirada and Chirada died fast, the MT provoked the spiny and I had to wait for Suparna. Once Provoke was up, I grabbed Suparna. She died quickly and once the circle phase started again, the spiny went to the MT and I had to wait another 10 second or so before my provoke came off CD. The problem here was that the DD were stacked on Garuda to AOE the plumes. I had to scream and <se.2> that I couldn't provoke yet so they wouldn't go crazy and kill the spiny with AOEs.

I've just found that certain parameters can make swapping unreliable. It's a lot safer for melee and it takes a little pressure off the MT, but the timing can really get weird.

I use Rage of Halone combo'd. Typically how: Fight or Flight -> Fast Blade Garuda as soon as she lands -> Savage Blade Chirada -> Provoke Spiny (since it's oGCD) -> Shield Lob Spiny -> Rage of Halone Chirada -> Circle of Scorn -> Flash. If your DD is slightly intelligent and doesn't blow their loads right away, this should keep Chirada on you. You don't run towards your corner immediately. There are time between sisters spawning and tornadoes/buffs appearing. Make sure you get aggro on both THEN run. The case happens if DPS is fast, like I said sometimes MT provoke Spiny before your Provoke is back up but that's no problem. If you provoke right away in tornado phase and as soon as it's up to grab Suparna, it should be up by the time eye phase starts. You know it'll be fine if you see it has 10 seconds or less left when Spiny explodes, given that it explodes before Garuda lands. If it's not, ask your DPS to wait till your provoke is up to pull Spiny away. Good DPS will stack on Garuda and blow those feathers up in a matter of seconds with flare and wide volley. It's not a problem, it's your DPS not paying attention to Spiny. Get better DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

It doesn't unfortunately. Spiny sometimes can apply 1 stack right away or before the first 20 seconds is over. In solo healing party, if I OT, I usually find myself waiting on Provoke to be off CD (I pull suparna away from MT so melee can hit her safely) if I use it on Spiny right as it spawns.

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In solo healing party, yes, but that's because you kill each sister in about 20 seconds and should only go through one tornado phase at all. You aren't racing plume stacks; you're just too far ahead in DPS. If your DPS is that high, just don't bother moving Suparna. You'll kill her before Garuda can WW anyway. You can actually do that much damage with two healers if your DPS are good enough.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

This way, provoke is always available for spiney

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What? Lemon8or was talking about provoking Suparna, not the spiny. OT can always provoke the spiny at the start of the phase, and has no reason to provoke the spiny a second time.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Also, for the all ranged/ignore Chirada method....

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Minstrel Shriek only occurs at the end of the phase. Since LB2/3 makes your tank immobile, you'll want to eat the explosion from the spiny rather than risk being outside the bubble when the cast goes off. Generally best to have a SCH bubble here as well because it'll still hit everyone for 4k. It's really just an alternative to solo heal method, since both methods should have you finish Garuda before the second tornado phase ends.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I'm still learning this fight, for sure, but I just find that too many things can go wrong here. For instance, I've had the DD pull Chirada off of me when I tabbed to provoke spiny.

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That would be your own fault. FoF + RoH combo. Again, for the entire fight, your goal is not to panic and run in circles hitting Shield Lob. You have ~20 seconds before tornadoes appear at all, and MT won't have more than 1 stack from eye phase. You can start your combo on Garuda then hit Chirada when she spawns. Garuda is vulnerable for the entirety of the eye->tornado phase transition, but even if she weren't, you no longer need to deal damage to advance combos.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I also once had a situation where I provoked both spiny and Chirada and Chirada died fast, the MT provoked the spiny and I had to wait for Suparna.

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As noted above, that happens when your DPS is high. It really doesn't matter; you can provoke Suparna once it's up (safer) or just let melee DPS go across the tornados and kill Suparna where she stands (technically riskier, but if you're killing Chirada that fast, you should have no trouble downing Suparna just as quickly).

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Once Provoke was up, I grabbed Suparna. She died quickly and once the circle phase started again, the spiny went to the MT and I had to wait another 10 second or so before my provoke came off CD. The problem here was that the DD were stacked on Garuda to AOE the plumes. I had to scream and <se.2> that I couldn't provoke yet so they wouldn't go crazy and kill the spiny with AOEs.

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Tornado phase is 90 seconds. Transition is another 15 or so. During that time frame, you use Provoke twice. Garuda does not ever jump out of tornado phase based on DPS. You are using provoke on something you shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

If your DPS is that high, just don't bother moving Suparna.

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I usually move her anyway since: 1. I'll have nothing to do (maybe run to the otherside and DPS) when MT pulls Spiny off and Chirada is dead. 2. If I have 2 or 3 melees in party, it's safer for them and I still encounter a lot of melee DPS who doesn't know when to jump over -.-" Ranged dps doesn't stop DPSing so it's not that much of a net loss compared to melee DPS waiting for WW then jump.

I had a group that did something interesting last night. We had one melee and instead of everyone killing Chirada and then the OT pulling Suparna across the tornados, we had all range on Suparna from the start and we had the melee LB Chirada each time. So, the melee/OT pretty much downed Chirada by themselves (we switched to Chir for a second when Garuda/Suparna teleported) and the three range were able to down Suparna very fast as well as we could stay on her practically the whole time. The tanks only had to worry about the spiny and no DPS had to risk WW.

It seems like a pretty good melee friendly strategy to me.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

It seems like a pretty good melee friendly strategy to me.

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Except: 1. You only have 1 melee DPS. This would not work if you have more than 1. 2. You LB Chirada which usually is either 1 or 2 while if you save for 3 and LB Garuda in Eye phase, it would probably go faster.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Except: 1. You only have 1 melee DPS. This would not work if you have more than 1. 2. You LB Chirada which usually is either 1 or 2 while if you save for 3 and LB Garuda in Eye phase, it would probably go faster.

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If you have two melee, you do the same thing Versiroth said except you LB Suparna instead of Chirada. If you have three or four melee, then you probably want to explore a different strat.

I'm not convinced LB3 on Garuda makes the fight faster than LB1 on the sisters, but it is nice to have LB3 in case something goes wrong with the spiny.

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

If you have two melee, you do the same thing Versiroth said except you LB Suparna instead of Chirada. If you have three or four melee, then you probably want to explore a different strat.

I'm not convinced LB3 on Garuda makes the fight faster than LB1 on the sisters, but it is nice to have LB3 in case something goes wrong with the spiny.

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Yeah, with two melee, you could have one on Chirada and the other on Suparna (with the MT). The melee on Suparna could LB her and then switch to Chirada (to avoid DWW) while the range finish off Suparna and then switch to Chirada. Either way, it takes away having to provoke a sister and makes the fight more melee friendly. In either strat, LBing a sister makes it to where you're able to attack Garuda for a longer time during the twisters. So, it probably equals out anyway.

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

I'm not convinced LB3 on Garuda makes the fight faster than LB1 on the sisters, but it is nice to have LB3 in case something goes wrong with the spiny.

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3 LB1 is 6900 potency. 1 LB3 is 9000 potency. That 2100 potency is where it will make your fight faster. Provoking Suparna after Chirada is dead is not risking anything except 2 or 3 seconds while Suparna runs across the tornadoes.

You all could try the most melee friendly stragedy the official stragedy which is the triangle method, same dps requirements as the American version *ie double wicked*

It works like this, dps grab chirada stack on downburst (big warning when its coming) and share the damage, 1k each person, while tanks grab surpana and gurada, when they disappear swap positions so the adds don't build up their stacks, when chirada dies, the melee just waltz over and destroy surpana, no wicked wheels to worry about for the melee's and as a added bonus tank swaps are done with ease and no main tank can't get instakilled if he doesn't pop a cooldown. Only downside to this strag is it requires more from the healers and a bit more movement from the tanks.

On phase 3, same thing and the tanks just pass the spiny when one gets 2 stacks on.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Except: 1. You only have 1 melee DPS. This would not work if you have more than 1. 2. You LB Chirada which usually is either 1 or 2 while if you save for 3 and LB Garuda in Eye phase, it would probably go faster.

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Not to mention that the as long as both sisters are alive, they receive a defense buff, and when you have to swap with both sisters alive, your DPS gets absolutely clobbered by buff stacks.

Though, it's worth noting that I don't recommend using the LB during Eye phase. It pierces the Lithified Flesh buff, so you can use caster LB during tornado phase to nuke both Garuda and Suparna at once, simultaneously reducing risk of a wipe and boosting DPS.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Yeah, with two melee, you could have one on Chirada and the other on Suparna (with the MT). The melee on Suparna could LB her and then switch to Chirada (to avoid DWW) while the range finish off Suparna and then switch to Chirada.

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Don't add moving parts to a fight. Follow the KISS principle. The only good reason to split DPS on Chirada and Suparna is that your DPS is too high in the first place and you want to slow down Chirada's death.

//EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Cessna

You all could try the most melee friendly stragedy the official stragedy which is the triangle method, same dps requirements as the American version *ie double wicked*

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None of this is true. It is not the "official strategy" and it is harder on the DPS than double WW. You get DPS reduction from stacks as well as lost positional abilities. Almost all of the methods involve using melee LB1 here because the sisters have 4 stacks after the jump. A poorly-geared group will fail this method 100% of the time due to DPS requirements being too damn high.

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None of this is true. It is not the "official strategy" and it is harder on the DPS than double WW. You get DPS reduction from stacks as well as lost positional abilities. Almost all of the methods involve using melee LB1 here because the sisters have 4 stacks after the jump. A poorly-geared group will fail this method 100% of the time due to DPS requirements being too damn high.

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Reread my post, you only saw triangle method.

The tanks swap positions when the sisters disappear so the stacks do NOT build. Thus the dps requirements are thusly the same.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

None of this is true. It is not the "official strategy" and it is harder on the DPS than double WW. You get DPS reduction from stacks as well as lost positional abilities. Almost all of the methods involve using melee LB1 here because the sisters have 4 stacks after the jump. A poorly-geared group will fail this method 100% of the time due to DPS requirements being too damn high.

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I agree.

The triangle strategy is a significant compromise to DPS because melee can't do rear/flank attacks and casters have to stop casting to dodge Slipstreams.

The benefit is tanks not having to deal with double WW and melee doesn't have to deal with WW at all. However, these two can be easily handled by having Tanks predict double WW with major cooldowns and having melee actually understand the fight and not be in melee range when WW occurs.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

However, these two can be easily handled by having Tanks predict double WW with major cooldowns and having melee actually understand the fight and not be in melee range when WW occurs.

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Good luck with that. I think you, Gamemako and Lemon all down these in statics and simply don't realize how often melee and tanks get instakilled to WW/DWW. Your method is fine for an experience group that knows what they're doing, sure. But, again, good luck with pugs. I don't have a static, personally, so I'm trying to figure out a strat were any group could go in and have a great chance. Also, we successfully pulled off the strat were one melee LBs Chirada and all range stay on Suparna and it worked out just fine.

People have downed this fight in a multitude of ways, yet you three act like only one strategy is feasible.


Also...

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The triangle strategy is a significant compromise to DPS because melee can't do rear/flank attacks and casters have to stop casting to dodge Slipstreams.

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In this strat, the melee LBs Chirada each time as well and she dies quick. Lack of positional attacks and having to dodge one slipstream doesn't matter when she dies so fast to LB.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Good luck with that. I think you, Gamemako and Lemon all down these in statics and simply don't realize how often melee and tanks get instakilled to WW/DWW.

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I personally almost never done it with static. I'd beaten all 3 for at least 3 weeks before anyone I know did so all PUGs. All my rings have been farmed with PUG group whether when I main tank, off tank or DPS as monk or black mage. My method involves: 1. Tell everyone OT is picking up Spiny and Chirada and focus Chirada. 2. Tell the melees to wait till OT provoke Suparna or at least wait till WW goes off. That's it. I even have macros for: running into Spiny bubble, running out to avoid feathers, provoke spiny and HOLY WTFBBQ WW is coming (I push it about 5 seconds before they go off).
I didn't act like one strategy is viable. In fact, as long as you understand the mechanics, any groups can beat it. Problem is: some people don't so your strategy is not going to make up for that.
Edit: to elaborate on the triangle strategy, bard would be the ideal dps to pull hate on Chirada. They just have to blow everything without Quelling Strike. If DPS is lacking, you can use melee LB on it. As I said 3 LB1s are not as powerful as 1 LB3 but whatever keeps you alive. Also the position changes up a bit. OT and the DPS will be on opposite sides to keep the sister far apart while the MT has garuda in the middle. If you don't kill Chirada before they switch places, the tanks would have to walk through the tornadoes or suffer stacks so in essence, it's not that much better.