White Mage is Poorly designed compared to Scholar

As a whm with allagan weapon and pretty much full bis (spellspeed build) I agree with everything sharazi says. WHM is NOT underpowered. we do fine. But at the same time, we need a serious look at some of our abilities. Presence of mind is terrible, yes. Shroud would be nice if it scales, though not necessary.. and it would be cool if one of the stats did a bit more for us.


Right now for WHM all 3 stats are exactly the same and offer a .5% increase in heals per second for 10 points. The differences are that spellspeed effects stoneskin, and also getting heals out quicker saves lives. thats why I and a lot of other whm's stack spellspeed.

But honestly, right now, it hardly matters which of the 3 stats you pick. The same could be said for blackmage.

Anyways, I throw in my vote for fixing our useless skills and making us more interesting. you don't need to buff us to do this, though I wouldn't mind.. how about giving us some more utility?

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

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Well, yes in my opinion one minute would go overboard, considering that your 30% extra heal has a 60sec cd, too, IF the benediction CD would be lowered to ~ 180sec.
A 90-120sec cd should suffice considering that you are wanting to implement a 25% cost reduce to that buff.
Keep in mind the SCH speed buff is a proc. A proc on crit, in other words more or less a "double proc".

I could not determine if the Faerie receives the secondary stats as well (havn't done much of a research tbh ^^).

Am i guessing right, that with "increased speed on regen ticks" you mean the time frame between each tick is reduced my spell speed?
Example: With no spell speed: One tick every 3sec over 21sec (totalling in 7 ticks)
With speed: One tick every 2.18sec over 15.26sec (totalling in 7 ticks)

If that is the case, then yes i'd welcome such a change.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

*snip*

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Well the tooltip says that :> "When critical HP is restored, damage nullification is doubled."

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Originally Posted by YuiSasaki

 Critical! Black Berry takes 7060 (+64%) damage.
I could not determine if the Faerie receives the secondary stats as well (havn't done much of a research tbh ^^).

Am i guessing right, that with "increased speed on regen ticks" you mean the time frame between each tick is reduced my spell speed?
Example: With no spell speed: One tick every 3sec over 21sec (totalling in 7 ticks)
With speed: One tick every 2.18sec over 15.26sec (totalling in 7 ticks)

If that is the case, then yes i'd welcome such a change.

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*This is sharazisspecial i reached my daily*

Fairy embrace originally only received det and critical hit . Just like regen (i used to compare the two they are similar in a way)

However new patch buffed sch to let pet be affect by spell speed. including its own proc and its own buff. This buffs fairys healing output a bit.

Preferably regen would get extra ticks instead. Changing spell speed in the way you would make it double edge and force us to use more regens (but still quite good for tank healing). We already are pretty bad mana wise.

Or why can't SE implement a trait to 1.5x the mana gained from 1 Piety*. IE: 12 MP Per @ LvL 50 for white mage. . . I just find it funny that whoever created WHM for this game, was stereotypical on bursts healers having a ridiculous cost on mana. [Except he forgot that most mmo's has a bolstered MP regeneracy mechanic to help prevent mana issues on end game burst healing <333!] I just did crystal tower and I can't count how many times our bard had to active ballard for our white mage. Sure my mana was dying fast. Except it was at half full [with Aetherflow nearing activation] while the WHM mana was near zero. >_>"

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Or why can't SE implement a trait to 1.5x the mana gained from 1 mind. IE: 12 MP Per @ LvL 50 for white mage. . . I just find it funny that whoever created WHM for this game, was stereotypical on bursts healers having a ridiculous cost on mana. [Except he forgot that most mmo's has a bolstered MP regeneracy mechanic to help prevent mana issues on end game burst healing <333!] I just did crystal tower and I can't count how many times our bard had to active ballard for our white mage. Sure my mana was dying fast. Except it was at half full [with Aetherflow nearing activation] while the WHM mana was near zero. >_>"

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Well my main post was making the point that Det,Crit and Speed are very meh for whm (they dont really synergize with it like sch does with crit). Mind is a primary stat, healing and damage increase quite noticeably from and its on every healer gear and ilvl90 have equal amounts

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Having aetherflow and using charges for lustrate/energy drain (Sacred soil is unnecessary) makes scholar have essentially infinite mana.

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Sch also have free heals from the fairy and lustrate. This lets them spend more time receiving mana ticks.

As much as I'd like to avoid this being a scholar vs whm thread its undeniable that scholar is superior in every aspect to whm except aoe healing. And scholar received multiple, large buffs this patch, wheras whm got nerfed.

I'm not sure I'm playing the same game the devs are. Or maybe yoshi plays a scholar.

I've killed twin and I've done it as a whitemage, and I've done it as a scholar. To illustrate the difference in mana effeciency, unless I get cc'd a lot I am always struggling for mana and need multiple ballads by the end as a whitemage. As a scholar I never went below 50% mana. not even at the end.

Having aetherflow and using charges for lustrate/energy drain (Sacred soil is unnecessary) makes scholar have essentially infinite mana.

I dare any scholar to name anything whitemage is better at than scholar besides casting protect, stoneskin, and aoe healing.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Well my main post was making the point that Det,Crit and Speed are very meh for whm (they dont really synergize with it like sch does with crit). Mind is a primary stat, healing and damage increase quite noticeably from and its on every healer gear.

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Ment Piety. Derptastic me is sleepy. z_z

tired of seeing whms complain about minor stuff when they have things like cureII cureIII and regen, theres no reason for you to complain, both jobs have there ups and downs, if you want sch stuff lvl sch if you want whm stuff lvl whm, tired of you guys wasting space on the forums with your crying, half of you people dont talk about anything you just want the Devs to change the game to your standards when it works just fine, stfu and enjoy all this hard work they put into the game

The spell speed being our secondary would be neat, but only if it were to be applied to regens.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Ment Piety. Derptastic me is sleepy. z_z

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Piety seems to be on most healing gear like it goes vit,mind,pie then det or crit or speed

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Originally Posted by Wonderbound

tired of seeing whms complain

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White mage is poorly designed in my opinion.

You are the one who is complaining about people having an opinion . We are trying to have a discussion here.

I often stop to ask myself if we all are not playing WHM the way it was intended to be played or if it's a true design flaw in the overall WHM mechanic (in terms of MP management). I burn MP when I have a group taking a butt load of damage and most fights leave me sitting at 1k-1.5k MP at the end (without BRD). The new dungeons seem to be VERY heal intensive which don't help me in any way. I'm going to keep refining my play style with WHM and try to find a method that works before I decide to speak up about any of this. Doesn't boosting Piety add to in combat mana regen?

I wonder what a bonus attribute of MND+20/Piety+10 would do for WHM? Maybe even a split of MND+15/Piety+15? Anyone try this yet?

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Originally Posted by Euphe

I wonder what a bonus attribute of MND+20/Piety+10 would do for WHM? Maybe even a split of MND+15/Piety+15? Anyone try this yet?

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When you improve your ilvl your mana efficiency will improve. But you will always have a reliance on bard in some fights. Especially if you are learning or new to the fight and if you are not comfortable with the fight yet.

Stick with mind you will need the healing from it.

Piety has a secondary effect of increasing your mp regen in battle. Since in battle you recover 2% of your maximum mana every 3 seconds.

Even if spellspeed applied to hots i don't think i would change my build, but i don't think its a bad idea. Anything to help spellspeed honesty.

I would still stack det however as I am of the opinion that heals need to LAND as or right after tanks take damage, not be casted after. Most autoattacks and abilities are on timers and spellspeed really doesn't do much for precasting.

Thats just another area where sch healing is unmatched, in being proactive. (Couldn't help myself :p)

I recently posted a new Cure III mechanic on the suggestions thread. This will NOT address our MP management in any way which I know is off topic but it would add in some "fun factor" into the WHM play-style and give Cure III the feel of an instant cast spell without making it truly instant cast-able. I know my fellow healers are mostly very sound intellectual types so I'd appreciate everyone's feedback on my idea!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Please-Read%21

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Originally Posted by Euphe

I wonder what a bonus attribute of MND+20/Piety+10 would do for WHM? Maybe even a split of MND+15/Piety+15? Anyone try this yet?

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Well mind is important but yeah, pie might actually be more important in some respects. I tend to find that it's almost always possible to keep someone up with cure II unless they're getting one-shot and that was before some substantial gearing up on my part.

I'm trying now, for "BiS", to take the piece with highest pie regardless of the other stat.
Which makes the omnirod interesting. If only it had det instead of crit.

This is like one of those, Titan is impossible threads. When a zillion people have killed it...
I mean with my current gear Medica 2 is better then it was, because before it was just overhealing and I had to cast it twice for the same effect over a duration. Now its less threat, less overhealing...

The only time i could see it being an issue (before Titan extreme), would be Turn 5 fireballs, and that is only if your not using cure 3.... which you should have been before the patch anyway.

i would love to see a decrease in recast time for shroud. i can deal with the changes to our healing abilities, but being able to keep from OOM is the most important thing.

What is wrong with people who think the medica II change is in any way, shape, or form...a buff???


HPS is nerfed

Mana efficiency is nerfed due to needing to cast additional AOEs to top people off

Reduced aggro isn't an issue since tank aggro has been buffed


Ignorance is bliss I guess

I wonder if changing SoS effect to be more piety dependent would be a good idea. For instance, for Xs your natural mana regen is increased by X% (I really have no idea what would be reasonable numbers because I don't play WHM). This way, the more piety you stack, the more mp you get back which scales along with how much mp you have overall. It will also make piety a more attractive stat for WHMs since they get bigger mana pools + bigger mana regens.

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

What is wrong with people who think the medica II change is in any way, shape, or form...a buff???


HPS is nerfed

Mana efficiency is nerfed due to needing to cast additional AOEs to top people off

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Not always true. For example if there are 2 healers, and you can top the group off with 1 aoe heal from both pre OR post patch (read : i90 or close) Then it is more effective HPS wise to have a longer duration weaker medica 2, because you have + 1 more GCD for a ST heal, or a stone skin, or a damage spell, and more mana efficient because its one cast for the duration instead of 2. Otherwise your just increasing overhealing per second, which is not helpful. If your undergeared, or your other healer is not carrying his weight... or your doing Titan Extreme it is a nerf.... but double SCH would not do much better, so its really just equalizing in those extreme cases.

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Originally Posted by Staris

asdf

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1.) Judging fights from a full i90 (or close) perspective is flawed because you are essentially overgeared for those fights. You don't just walk into to coil (which drops i90 gear as a reward, not a prerequisite) with a full set of i90 gear (or at least you shouldn't be twiddling your thumbs doing nothing but myth cap every week)

2.) If what you are saying is true, and old medica II would lead to overhealing when combined with Succor/Whispering Dawn, you could instead be saving your SCH (who has BETTER single target healing) a GCD by handling the AOE healing yourself. Thus it is still a nerf, while at the same time devaluing the presence of the WHM for all but the most extreme cases of AOE damage.


3.) Glad you brought up titan extreme. It really emphasizes our lack of AOE HPS after the nerf.

4.) Saying double scholar wouldn't do much better doesn't change the fact that people don't like their classes being nerfed for no reason.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Piety seems to be on most healing gear like it goes vit,mind,pie then det or crit or speed

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What I mean is have a trait to increaes the effectiveness of piety. 1 Piety = 8 MP @ LvL 50 So Far. Have a trait that boots the efficiency by 1.5x. 12 MP @ lvl 50.

I fully agree WHM is getting truly harmed by this, =[

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Originally Posted by Euphe

I recently posted a new Cure III mechanic on the suggestions thread. This will NOT address our MP management in any way which I know is off topic but it would add in some "fun factor" into the WHM play-style and give Cure III the feel of an instant cast spell without making it truly instant cast-able. I know my fellow healers are mostly very sound intellectual types so I'd appreciate everyone's feedback on my idea!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Please-Read%21

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I like this a lot!! I would totally use CureIII more often if it was like this!

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

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The proc from Enhanced Pet actions happens way less than you think. When it happens I assure you it feels like my birthday and Christmas at the same time.

Also keep in mind that Selene does not just affect scholar it is a party wide buff.

Other than those two things I agree 100%. I find PoMs cooldown to be far too long. I think it would be better if it were a 2min cooldown with a 15s duration. I think regen should be set up exactly like lustrate to improve synergy in between the spells.

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

2.) If what you are saying is true, and old medica II would lead to overhealing when combined with Succor/Whispering Dawn, you could instead be saving your SCH (who has BETTER single target healing) a GCD by handling the AOE healing yourself. Thus it is still a nerf, while at the same time devaluing the presence of the WHM for all but the most extreme cases of AOE damage.

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Old medica II did lead to overhealing with Succor/whispering Dawn but that doesn't mean your scholar shouldn't be using Succor. It's an aoe yes, but its used more for its shield to give the healers a cushion and a chance to have to use less gcds to top people off. WHM are already used in the most extreme cases of AOE damage before AND after 2.1 due to having 3 aoe heals.

I agree that the secondary stats for whm are too boring. It feels like the extra Det/SS/Crit on my gear might as well be Parry for all the changes they cause in my ability usage. I know they add up, but assuming that the 10 secondary = .5% healing number somebody mentioned is correct, that's at absolute most a 15% difference between full 90 gear + 95 weapon vs. that same gear with all the secondary stats removed.

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Originally Posted by TimeZero

I like this a lot!! I would totally use CureIII more often if it was like this!

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I'm trying to build up support in the suggestions forums for this. Only with support will SE devs take it seriously and actually consider implementing it. Thank you for your kind words though!

Possible Ability that can help with MP management!

Sanctum:
Cast: Self/Cast Time: Instant/Duration: 30min
Info: Grants the caster the ability to regenerate 10% of the health over-healed on a target back as mana.

I did 10% because it's a fair number. I don't believe it would "break" mechanics too much. I did consider 5% however, but the idea is get some returns from an over-heal and 5% seems like it is too low considering that most of us have 4k MP now anyways. To put it in perspective a 1k over-heal would only return 100MP. That's not even a full return from casting Cure I... So that is why I say it's "fair".

. This idea would build upon SE giving us a lot of Crit+ gear (still don't know why that is). I'm assuming that since the gear is for all healers they are trying to tailor to both and if that's the case make the crit count for WHMs just as much as it counts for SCH. This ability would grant SE that option. Give me feedback on the idea and if people are all for it I'll post it in the suggestions forum!

Med II is roughly 120hp per tick for me (I could be wrong) so that would make it a 12MP return per tick. This may now sound like much but it would help dampen the MP drain we tend to suffer from. Couple this ability with SoS and it should be useful IMO.

Lmfao
1.A fix is not a buff
2.whm complaining about sch heals?I can remember not so long ago Whm with their nose in the air.
3.The level of hate for scholar, now so called op
4.whm wanting scholar nerfed
5.If you want scholar heals then re roll sch.(sounds familiar right)
6.I wounder how many QQ whm are ex scholar who re rolled.
7.2-6 isn't constructive is it, Now you know how scholars felt when they wanted a buff and whm answered.

I think it would be good for WHMs to have a bloodbath type skill, which would replenish mana based off either mp healed, or potentially for each cure spell there is a value based of your mind and depending on the damage just received using the appropriate spell would yield better mp returns.

E.g target has just been hit for 700dmg you use cure I heals for 800 roughly, small over heal of 100 that 100 is taken away from the set value and you get whats left in mp. I understand its a bit convoluted but IMO alot of WHMs need to learn how to cast appropriately, dont keep spamming cure 2 because a little chip damage.

-Convert spell for TP into MP, also convert should be cross class skill IMO.

-The other thing would be to increase proc %,

-Or 1000 tp cost skill which has a harshish CD, which has a refresh effect. So you have shroud and this skill.

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Originally Posted by Burstwolf

2.whm complaining about sch heals?I can remember not so long ago Whm with their nose in the air.
3.The level of hate for scholar, now so called op
4.whm wanting scholar nerfed

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Who wants sch's nerfed? or op? Simply pointing out that it synergizes well within itself and has very few weakness is hate?

I can remember threads and threads of sch's crying that they couldn't compete, succor needed to be buffed etc. etc. and many whm pointing out that sch had the potential to be even better than whm, it was just bad fairy control. Granted not even being able to command the fairy while casting was pretty terrible. But sch was never underpowered, they just needed fixes and most sch didn't realize how good their mitigation and fairy heals would be.

Whm mana efficiency is terrible. That is not due to bugs or poor ai. Oranges and apples here.

I'm not discussing SCH in here. I'm trying to discuss WHM MP management which has nothing to do with any other class... I personally like SCHs for the record so please stop trying to speak for "all" of us and putting words in my mouth that do not exist. kthx.

WHM seems to have less skills that help us play our jobs effectively, whether we are healing in a party or soloing. BLM has the ability to have endless MP, SCH/SMN have similar abilities how come the other mage class has none? Battle classes can cross-class TP regain skills, yet mages can not cross-class MP regain skills. We have 1 damage mitigation skill, and it is based on the targets HP. Regen can be tricky because if it happens to still be ticking, hate goes directly to the healer. Any action you take on another character generates hate, and with only one skill to mitigate that hate which also happens to be the only way to increase MP regeneration things can get messy fast.

One of the mechanics I miss from 1.x was no restrictions on cross-class skills, I felt the armory system and cross-class skills was to allow players to build their own play-style. Like how you can pick any subjob you wanted in FFXI, each subjob provided benefits depending on the situation, allowing you to create a character that fit your play-style. Instead we have the illusion of choice, the developers have decided there is only ONE way.

WHM is too shallow and easy.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

WHM is too shallow and easy.

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Whm is less forgiving then sch in a few ways

-No low cd instant off gcd burst heal
-Terrible mana efficiency.Once mana is wasted or you have died . Its hard to recover.
-No pet with free healing.
-Can't heal while moving.

Using cure 3 properly is also harder then anything sch has to do(it also requires effort from entire party) So its not "easy" . Straightforward yes.

However, In comparison to healers from other mmos it is quite shallow...

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Using cure 3 properly is also harder then anything sch has to do(it also requires effort from entire party) So its not "easy" .

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Well, microing the pet can be tough, till you mastered it at least :>.