Couples geting the shaft on duty roulette

Bottom line, this is an MMO game, people in the MMO world want to play with friends, take that away in any way shape or form, you are alienating the reason why people play a game such as this. And before saying something like "well they aren't taking anything away", yes...yes they are, the choice between friends or efficiency, one will be taken away. Look at pvp, queuing as dps, healer, or tank solo or with a group it is all fast, so don't tell me that this is to help out the solo queuing person, those queues pop quickly either way. You give incentive to play the game and do something like roulette and take away the ability to do it with others, it is an objectively bad thing to do. 3/3 end rant. Only 1000 characters per post? o.O seems short...

Why do you all care how fast you level or farm? If you are spending time with your loved one does it really freakn matter that you are spending your time playing together doing everything AS FAST as possible? You all can fight and argue as much as you want the roulette will not change. If they start letting 2 people que up then there will be people bit#$!ng about not being able to que with 3 because the 3rd is their child or something.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

You run one DF without your SO a day it won't kill either of you. Get over yourself.

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No, technically on this she is right. They are 4 DF per day. Oh well, 3 for the tomestones bonuses. They can take quite some time. Especially if any goes wrong.

The problem is that. as it has been well explained, the DR are there to help filling the missing slots for beginners. Allowing a party to join, even if made of only two people, would break a bit that mechanism. Couples of DPS would steal tanks and healers to the other teams, making things worse. Unless they are a tank/healer couple, sure. But that would be a very rare scenario. And it would require too many case by case rules to implement. Not going to happen.

So the only problem here is that you want the bonus...

agreed, I would love to help lowbies run their dungeons, but not at the expense of not playing with my wife. no reason duty roulette is restricted, one thing this game needs less of is restriction.

at the very least allow 2 players so like the OP said couples can get in, but I see no reason 3 cant join the it and help a person get thru there dungeon.

Its going to cause us to use it only when the other can't play which is about never.

....actually Im willing to bet most couples do in fact play a tank and healer....at least my wife and I have a lot because then you can duo well.....or one of us is ALWAYS a tank or healer, and possibly the other is a dps.

Im get the idea, so don't allow 3 people to party, just allow couples too I don't care, I will do it when she cant play, my only hate on FF tho, is all the restriction, its constant....they should open it up a bit more

plain and simple anytime you limit something its bad, is it too much work to allow dungeons to scale? I mean...cant you allow more than 4 party members in these dungeons and just have a multiplier to mob stats? Im asking I don't know, but seems like they could just do that. and allow couples or 3 or 4 to join 3 solo players. Whatev, if this is how it works, we wont run it as oft as we would, if the idea is to get more people running the dungeons, it fails on couples, and in my FC there are about 10 married couples and more unmarried couples so its a % of players.

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Originally Posted by Maku

Why do you all care how fast you level or farm?

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The choice is...do 2 hours of dungeons with roulette while solo or do 4 1/2 hours of dungeons while with friends or your SO for the same amount of reward. When people only have a limited amount of time they are able to play the game, why are they shafted from the reward? The rewards for the roulette save on average 2 hours and 40 minutes worth of dungeons, those 2h40m could be spent doing other things such as dailies and pvping. My g/f and I only have 4 hours available to us per day, but to get the same amount of reward we must do over 4 1/2 hours worth of dungeons? This is a game we all share and you want some kind of exclusivity? Things progress slowly in this game, the devs throw us all a bone to progress faster but with a heavy stipulation...and people like you mock people like me due to situation? Am I not allowed to want something SE has given to you while playing the same game without stipulation?

Ouch....yes my wife and I are very dependent on each other....we call it love...what do you call it? I have a finite amount of time on earth, I need to spend it with my woman...is that really a bad thing in your eyes? If other peoples love isn't like that Im cool with it...but yeah my wife and I don't choose to do things separate, we aren't separate we are married, if we were in fact separate...what would be the point of being married...wouldn't it be the same as unmarried but together? Its not for us at least. Not trying to call you out, just when you say marriage/love is worrisome dependency that makes me worried for you...don't miss out=)

The thing is, you can still play together, it's called 'using the duty finder and pre-making a party the exact same way you've been doing for the past 4 months'

Duty roulette is there to help people who don't have the same luxury of couples who can drag their other halves around and make them party with them. It's there to benefit people who manage to detach themselves for a modicum of time from their beloveds and help some poor bastard who isn't as fortunate and doesn't have anyone to help them, and it rewards them for this. Wether it be partners or close friends or whatever.

You horrible, self-centred people. You'd think you weren't being allowed to party at all together. Stop twisting because SE tried to help the people who can't as easily go about in couples/small groups.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

Roulette DOES take away from people who don't want to queue solo -- the roulette bonus acts as a system of positive feedback to encourage a specific style of play, and one with extremely significant implications on endgame progression! Since people who play with friends instead of doing daily roulettes take a lot longer to cap in terms of real time, solo queueing is not only more attractive, it's more respectful of the time of the game's paying customers. If playing solo gets you heaps of free money and tomes, and if there is NO WAY to get a similar bonus by playing with friends, that is a TACIT PENALTY to people who want to spend time playing games with people they know.

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As far as Myth tomes goes, I will farm them faster by forming a group myself and doing multiple runs 95% of the time compared to Duty roulette. Beyond possibly a lucky roll on an easy Main Scenario roulette, I will pull Philo faster that way also.

So as a result, as opposed to joining the duty finder and chancing an hour run, I'd just wait until some more folks in my FC got on and do 3 runs in that hour. With the bonus for roulette and needed class, I have some incentive to join a random group as opposed to just gathering for 40 minutes for more people to get on. However it's not enough of an incentive for where at some point I'm grouped with FC mates and am like "Later suckers, I gotta go do my duty roulette!"

Now if your runs with friends are taking as long as the average random duty finder group, then the first duty roulette of the day will be more efficient. However if you have a group of people that you commonly run with, I guarantee you will start to form enough synergy where your runs will be 2-3 times faster than the duty finder group on average.

TLDR: The bonus for roulette completion is on average equivalent to running the content twice. Preformed groups are capable of running the same content 2 or more times in the time it would take an average duty finder group to run it.

You and your wife weren't the target audience for who duty roulette is helping. Those queuing with friends from their servers weren't either. If you and your wife don't want to optimize how you help out the community by queuing separately at times then you're free to never compromise and just do all content together all the time. That's fine, but you need to realize you weren't the people who needed help accessing this content to begin with and encouraging people to queue solo has helped tremendously.

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Originally Posted by Yahavage

The thing is, you can still play together, it's called 'using the duty finder and pre-making a party the exact same way you've been doing for the past 4 months'

Duty roulette is there to help people who don't have the same luxury of couples who can drag their other halves around and make them party with them. It's there to benefit people who manage to detach themselves for a modicum of time from their beloveds and help some poor bastard who isn't as fortunate and doesn't have anyone to help them, and it rewards them for this. Wether it be partners or close friends or whatever.

You horrible, self-centred people. You'd think you weren't being allowed to party at all together. Stop twisting because SE tried to help the people who can't as easily go about in couples/small groups.

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Lol k

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

You and your wife weren't the target audience for who duty roulette is helping. Those queuing with friends from their servers weren't either. If you and your wife don't want to optimize how you help out the community by queuing separately at times then you're free to never compromise and just do all content together all the time. That's fine, but you need to realize you weren't the people who needed help accessing this content to begin with and encouraging people to queue solo has helped tremendously.

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Hi, no. Please go back and consider that there is a high level duty roulette also and that the group of people it is "helping" is actually "every single player in the game." It's a daily log-in bonus. It's literally just a bonus. You'd be sitting in the same queue solo, for no bonus, for just as long without this. The wait for a tank would be just as long without this feature implemented, because exactly the same people who previously logged in and queued as tank to get their 300 myth tomes a week are also going to log in and queue as tank to get their 450 myth tomes a week, just as they did in days of yore, before patch 2.1 and the coming of the prophecied Duty Roulette, to deliver all solo players from evil. Please understand this. Reread the above, until you understand that HIGH LEVEL ROULETTE IS NOT INTENDED TO HELP THOSE POOR POOR SOLO PLAYERS FIND A GROUP.

If they wanted to restrict low-level and main scenario roulette to solo players, so they don't have to put in the extra time to make their group finder work with, you know, groups? Fine! There's no actually defensible reason for it, but whatever. If you're saying that everything you do for post-story progression takes two and a half times longer if you want to play with your friends, who bought the game to play with you in the first place, instead of randoms from another server you'll never talk to again? I will find something else to do with my time, seriously.

The roulette was focused for solo players to queue. Just like CT only allows you to queue a full man party of 8 instead of 24. And yes, the High Level Roulette IS intended to help those poor solo players find a group because it encourages more solo people to queue up. If more tanks queue up, the DF queues DPS and healers faster because more people are getting a party and getting placed into an instance. So now, yes, those tanks who just go online and queue up to get their tomes will continue to do so. But those tanks who got online and create their own groups and run several instances will be encouraged to jump in the queue solo at least once. That will help the DPS and healers with the longer queue times. Personally, my main is a DPS but I have my tank at end game too, and a lot of the times I will just queue up my tank in DF because I know how it sucks to wait for 45 - 60 minutes as a DPS. And I also sometimes will join in on other random queues like Praetorium because it's fun for me but also cause I know people are waiting forever to get that queue up. The roulette is just incentive for solo queuing to help other people who solo queue out. The "in demand" bonus encourages the people who are actually moving the queues (AKA the tanks) to jump in so that more people can get into the dungeons.

The fact of the matter is that right now you can only queue up for roulette as 1 person. If you want to have more than 1 person with you when you queue, then you can't use the roulette. Let's leave it at that because that is just the way the feature is intended to be. There are many other ways you play and dungeons are not the only way for you to level. If you want tomes, you can do SRs which are way faster than a duty roulette. Just because you can't do the option you WANT doesn't mean its bad design or that SE is dumb for restricting it or whatever. Just because my car won't run off of water instead of gas is no reason for me to get pissed at Toyota.

I have played MMOs for a long time myself and I can say that not all MMOs are focused on group play. Many MMOs give people who just want to solo a way or a method or a feature that helps them keep up with other people who are always grouped. The DF is a great example and many features like this for other MMOs where solo people can find a party without having to ask people or shout in cities/towns. The roulette is a feature for the solo player. Are we really getting mad just because we can't do this one feature??? That's like... being at the reception of a wedding and the cake is given out to close friends and family but since you are more of a regular friend or a guest, you don't get a piece, and then you get pissed. I dunno it's early morning and my metaphors are escaping me right now. Anyway, the point I'm making is, let's just let the solo people have this one and just queue up in the DF with your partner like regular.

Ah! Another simple application of opportunity cost, utility, and economics!

Let's examine our two options here: The first is using the DF Roulette to gain extra rewards, we shall value that reward as "X". Our second option is queuing up with friends/family/loved ones, we'll call the value one places on that enjoyment "Y".

If you use DF Roulette, that basically implies that you value X more than you value Y. If choose to only queue with your partner/friend/FC-mate, you value Y more than X. Pretty simple. The reason why the OP and her supporters have a flawed view of this situation is that they are simply not examining their opportunity costs and the rewards.

SE implemented this optional feature in order to incentivize people like the OP to split up and help out their fellow player. It is, in essence, a re-distribution of utility, in that you are incentivized with tomes/xp/etc to give up some enjoyment, so that another player can have some enjoyment. i.e. the person that was waiting in queue for hours because no one wants to do Ifrit SM anymore. The options are clear and you must make a decision: You can either give up some enjoyment to be more competitively equipped, or you can give up (potentially, based on play-time and caps) some rewards to have more enjoyment. It's perfectly fair and reasonable, you just don't like that you cannot have both. The only reason the rewards exist is to compensate you for your lost utility or enjoyment of going with your friends. There are no free lunches.

Additionally, I think you will find that gaming with people other than your spouse is actually MORE social than gaming exclusively with your spouse. If you define being sociable like Webster's does, "willing to talk and engage in activities with other people; friendly," then only playing with a select few people is actually anti-social. Your argument still exists, just at the opposite end of the spectrum, which you may have spun that way because someone appealing for more social aspects removes you from the "hard-core" community, and makes you more endearing to your audience.

Jus' sayin' - its pretty simple - you get a reward for giving up something you like. If you don't give up something you like, you don't get the reward.

BTW - it's actually extremely assumptive and rude to assume that those who are not married or who do not choose to exclusively play the game with one other person aren't giving anything up by using DF Roulette. I have many friends that play the game that I would obviously prefer to be playing with if I can help it. You are throwing a hissy fit because you are placing an extremely high value on something other people don't value as much. If you stop feeling like you are cheated and start realizing that you can't have it all, you might be a happier person.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

shut up

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Or; you could stop trying to insult other people/score cheap rhetorical points/be a useless pedant and consider whether or not making players agonize over whether it is worth playing with friends is a good idea in the first place, you clown

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Originally Posted by Norondor

Or; you could stop trying to insult other people/score cheap rhetorical points/be a useless pedant and consider whether or not making players agonize over whether it is worth playing with friends is a good idea in the first place, you clown

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I will address your myriad concerns, which were actually laid out quite succinctly, in order:

1) I truly was not trying to be insulting, rather, objective. Don't take things so personally.
2) If I could redeem points for rhetoric, damn right I would attempt to get them as cheap as possible.
3) Pedant? Maybe slightly. Useless? How so? Did I not make valid arguments?
4) No one is forcing you to agonize. "Whether its worth playing with friends is a good idea..." Rather than what? You didn't finish your question. I shall consider what I assume to be your point, which is, is the cost of forcing players to make that decision worth the decreased queue times for other players? I could not possibly quantify the answer with any empirical data, but I would venture a "yes" as my personal opinion, based on what I have seen. My queue times as DPS, and for helping my friend finish his story mission the other night were dramatically less.

I think SE probably did consider that, and they thought, "Yes, forcing those people who play as a couple exclusively to make a decision about whether to gain a bonus or play together is worth making all of the rest of my customers happier with decreased waiting times for their content."

Point considered. I think its your turn to call me another name.

i like to help people i know level low level jobs, i don't mind that i get nothing, i was doing this before Roulette even existed.

it's a shame they can't party with me so they can get the Roulette bonuses. and i don't even care about Philosophy (already working on sets for jobs that i basically never play).

there's no good reason why they don't enable this for two people, those two will still be helping two others.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

Lol k

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There's me told!

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Originally Posted by Norondor

HIGH LEVEL ROULETTE IS NOT INTENDED TO HELP THOSE POOR POOR SOLO PLAYERS FIND A GROUP.

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I think you'll find it is designed to help solo players get groups. That is, in fact, exactly what it is designed for. It's distributing high-level players into RANDOM CONTENT to do. RANDOM. ONCE PER DAY. It is therefore, not designed, to give high level players a boost, by playing with their friends. If it was designed to do that, do you not think, that the bonus would come from entering the duty while partied up with someone? I mean if you think about it that would make sense right? But seeing as you get the boost by going in alone, do you not think that it is the point really? To help other people get out of their queues a bit quicker?

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Originally Posted by Norondor

Or; you could stop trying to insult other people/score cheap rhetorical points/be a useless pedant and consider whether or not making players agonize over whether it is worth playing with friends is a good idea in the first place, you clown

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Again, what are we agonizing over?

Choice 1:
Do a dungeon with friends for a 30 - 50 myth reward in a predictable time frame and guaranteed success.

Choice 2:
Do a dungeon with random people for a 70 - 90 myth reward in an unpredictable time frame and chance of success.

If I have friends on, I'm ALWAYS going to choose choice 1. Not only do I get to group with my friends, but I also know exactly what I'm getting into. In my case, the speed of completion is actually going to make this MORE efficient than doing duty roulette.

If I don't have friends on, I may choose choice 2. Before the bonus I rarely went this route, I'd just wait until some people in my FC logged on and would go do some solo activity till then. This bonus serves as an incentive for me to run with random people on my tank or healer and provide 3 other people waiting in the queue with a group.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

words

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your posts gross me out and you write like you are wearing fifty fedoras, but i'm going to keep my gorge down and engage with you anyway, in spite of my better judgement.

i forgot i rewrote that sentence and left in "it's worth," oops. the whole point i'm getting at -- have been getting at, have been getting frustrated about -- is that:


1) There are no players queuing for high-level roulette who were not already just picking a dungeon and queueing for it last week. Nobody. Seriously, nobody is doing this -- it's not going to decrease wait times because the extra 40 myth tomes are not going to lure out the players who preferred doing other content to cap every week because there is no other content which will allow players at endgame to reach 450 myth tomes in the span of a week. It's dungeon runs, or ~50 peisteskin maps -- pick your poison.

Now, i don't doubt at all that it'll make queues for low-level dungeons and story missions faster -- that 300 philosophy tome reward is pretty enticing. But for post-story dungeons, the only reason your queues would be faster is because more people started playing again after being broken by AK fatigue in the weeks before 2.1. Think about this, please: breaking last week's LS buddies, couples, or farming statics up into solo players queueing individually does not do anything at all for the balance of players waiting in duty finder -- if a tank and healer team are now both forced into solo queue, what exactly actually changed? DPS will still have to wait for a tank and healer before they can go -- moving that tank out of his group doesn't do anything for queue times, and if you break a four-person group up, the best you can say has happened is you've shuffled queue times around a little. There's little to suggest that high-level roulette is anything other than a log-in bonus akin to Warframe -- it's an incentive to do something everyone with an interest in continuing to make progress at endgame was already doing.

and;

2) The existence of a bonus for playing solo in the only content that can realistically get players capped on tomestones every week imposes an in-game pressure not to play with friends -- the (unfinished/rewritten, oops) question i was asking above is "is it actually worth playing with your friends, when you know you are in essence wasting their time, given the paltry reward compared to solo play?" Games are didactic; they teach rules and systems through mechanics, and looking at 4-5 dungeon runs through roulette vs 9-10 queueing normally pretty clearly teaches you one thing: "doing dungeons at endgame without using roulette is inefficient."

ergo;

3) Claims that high-level roulette assists in speeding matchmaking are founded only inasmuch as everyone is now further burdened by the implications of a weekly cap that is set in stone, with no willingness from devs to consider rollover or other means to ease the imposition on players' time: DPS who befriended tanks to speed queues are now forced back into waiting for a tank to join DR; tanks and healers, as bottleneck roles, still instantly find groups, but not with trusted friends that they enjoy playing the game with; the pool of players waiting to be allowed to finish their chores has not decreased at all, and indeed swells dramatically as finding a group to speed run with in revenant's toll is now, essentially, a waste of time. You need not be infatuated with your significant other to be inconvenienced by high-level roulette! In fact, the only people who could conceivably benefit are those who EXCLUSIVELY play solo, never participate in group content with LS/FC players, do not seek groups or respond to requests for people to join groups in progress -- they, of course, are unlikely to see any faster queue times, but they will at least be getting more myth stones.


What kills me here is you conceded my point already -- that this system hurts normal players like you because you can't play with your friends as you admit you would prefer without being penalized -- but then you took the opportunity to take shots at couples who are sad they can't share something they enjoy with their loved ones because you wanted to flaunt your mastery of high school level economics. If you expected that to be met with a slowly rising wave of applause, you might want to seriously reconsider the way you look at the world around you, dude or dudette.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

your posts gross me out and you write like you are wearing fifty fedoras, but i'm going to keep my gorge down and engage with you anyway, in spite of my better judgement.....

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QQ

/10char

lawl double post but i need to be mean to forum user yahavage quick here

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Originally Posted by Yahavage

I think you'll find it is designed to help solo players get groups. That is, in fact, exactly what it is designed for. It's distributing high-level players into RANDOM CONTENT to do. RANDOM. ONCE PER DAY. It is therefore, not designed, to give high level players a boost, by playing with their friends. If it was designed to do that, do you not think, that the bonus would come from entering the duty while partied up with someone? I mean if you think about it that would make sense right? But seeing as you get the boost by going in alone, do you not think that it is the point really? To help other people get out of their queues a bit quicker?

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Yeah that does make sense when you put it that way.

Hey on another topic did you notice you can't queue for CT as anything other than a solo player or a group of eight even though it's a 24-person dungeon and it would sorta make sense if players could actually attempt it with a group that's the same size as the dungeon, and yoshi-p's suggestion was, honest to god, "just form three groups of eight and queue at the same time, and it'll probably put at least two of them together, maybe"

I feel like there's a connecting thread between this and SE's failure to include matchmaking functionality present at the launch of WoW's random dungeons but so as not to rob you of the joys of discovery i will leave you to puzzle it out on your own

Good luck

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Originally Posted by Norondor

1) There are no players queuing for high-level roulette who were not already just picking a dungeon and queueing for it last week. Nobody. Seriously, nobody is doing this...

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You have no data of this. Maybe among the few you have asked agree with this, but of the 500k+ people playing the game, you cannot even statistically say that NOBODY is doing this. In fact, I ran a low level duty roulette last night just for fun. So my experience alone nullifies that argument.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

2) The existence of a bonus for playing solo in the only content that can realistically get players capped on tomestones every week imposes an in-game pressure not to play with friends

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The bonus doesn't impose the pressure... YOU are imposing the pressure on yourself. You don't need the bonus and as others have stated, you can do the content with groups more efficiently than a once a day roulette bonus. (or even 4 a day if you do each roulette group)

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Originally Posted by Norondor

3) Claims that high-level roulette assists in speeding matchmaking are founded only inasmuch as everyone is now further burdened by the implications of a weekly cap that is set in stone, with no willingness from devs to consider rollover or other means to ease the imposition on players' time: DPS who befriended tanks to speed queues are now forced back into waiting for a tank to join DR; tanks and healers, as bottleneck roles, still instantly find groups, but not with trusted friends that they enjoy playing the game with;

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Now you are assuming that the Duty Roulette is forcing people to use it. It's not. It doesn't FORCE you to queue up single because you can still go befriend your tank friend and speed queue. And even after you use the Duty Roulette which is a max of 4 times a day if you use each category, after that are you still forced to queue solo in DF? No... There is no forcing. All of this is being created in your mind because you want a feature that is not currently available. The roulette forces nothing on no one. The bonus is an incentive for you to perform an action. It doesn't force you to perform the action. You have a choice to perform it or not. Just like a 10% discount on shirts is an incentive to go buy those shirts. If those aren't the shirts you want, are you really going to get angry at the store and tell the manager he's ignorant for forcing you to buy those shirts because the 10% is only on those shirts and not the ones you want?

The system is only hurting the players who are hurting themselves. You can play with friends, no one stopped you with that. The duty roulette bonus is just to encourage solo queuing. Not doing the roulette doesn't incur any penalty other than you not receiving the bonus. A bonus of which you can easily make up for by queuing the duty finder with your friend/group since you can 1. run the dungeon smoothly with people you know and 2. run the dungeon more often with guaranteed success.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

There are no players queuing for high-level roulette who were not already just picking a dungeon and queueing for it last week. Nobody. Seriously, nobody is doing this

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Who has two thumbs, hadn't run DF in over a month outside of full FC, and ran duty roulette level 50 yesterday?

<-- This guy.

I would have preferred to have run with some FC buddies though, 40 minute WP is harsh -_-

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Originally Posted by Norondor

Games are didactic; they teach rules and systems through mechanics, and looking at 4-5 dungeon runs through roulette vs 9-10 queueing normally pretty clearly teaches you one thing: "doing dungeons at endgame without using roulette is inefficient."

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Again, this is based on the assumption that your clear times with friends versus random people is the same. For me it is most definitely not, and I would say for most people that group regularly together it is far less in their preformed group.

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Originally Posted by glen7187

You have no data of this. Maybe among the few you have asked agree with this, but of the 500k+ people playing the game, you cannot even statistically say that NOBODY is doing this. In fact, I ran a low level duty roulette last night just for fun. So my experience alone nullifies that argument.

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OK yeah i'm not gonna respond to everything because what IS it with people using bad metaphors in this thread, but like... i already conceded this point about all roulettes except high-level. Three times, including in this very post. It's the start of the next paragraph.

like i just don't know how i'm expected to work under these conditions

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

Who has two thumbs, hadn't run DF in over a month outside of full FC, and ran duty roulette level 50 yesterday?

<-- This guy.

I would have preferred to have run with some FC buddies though, 40 minute WP is harsh -_-

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So you'd rather have played with your friends? We're totally on the same page here!

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

Again, this is based on the assumption that your clear times with friends versus random people is the same. For me it is most definitely not, and I would say for most people that group regularly together it is far less in their preformed group.

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... and this in turn is based on the assumption that a random group in DF takes approximately twice as long to clear dungeons as a pre-formed group, which is most likely not the case, on average. In WP, as in your anecdote above, it totally can be that bad, 40m vs. ~20m -- but given that the duty finder bonus is larger than the bonus for actually clearing WP you'd have had to take a little more like an hour to make it an even amount of tomestones/hour.

what's really amazing to me is they add all these things to make people play solo and in the same patch they price these land plots where they expect Free Companies to have 100+ members all donating to the same fund.

how am i going to get to know my fellow FC members if you don't even want me playing with them? and you want me to trust them with my gil too?

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Originally Posted by Norondor

What kills me here is you conceded my point already -- that this system hurts normal players like you because you can't play with your friends as you admit you would prefer without being penalized -- but then you took the opportunity to take shots at couples who are sad they can't share something they enjoy with their loved ones because you wanted to flaunt your mastery of high school level economics. If you expected that to be met with a slowly rising wave of applause, you might want to seriously reconsider the way you look at the world around you, dude or dudette.

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Using the word penalize would indicate some sort of reduction of tomes obtained since 2.1 by entering the duty finder with friends, but as that's not the case your point is moot.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

OK yeah i'm not gonna respond to everything because what IS it with people using bad metaphors in this thread, but like... i already conceded this point about all roulettes except high-level. Three times, including in this very post. It's the start of the next paragraph.

like i just don't know how i'm expected to work under these conditions

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But you haven't proved your point. Plenty of us are doing all the categories of the Duty Roulette. So where are you getting this "Nobody is doing this seriously" stuff from. Don't stress yourself out when you are trying to prove a point with data that doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

what's really amazing to me is they add all these things to make people play solo and in the same patch they price these land plots where they expect Free Companies to have 100+ members all donating to the same fund.

how am i going to get to know my fellow FC members if you don't even want me playing with them? and you want me to trust them with my gil too?

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Again, you are missing the point that all of these are OPTIONS. They aren't FORCING you to play solo, they are giving you OPTIONS to play solo. As for the housing, yes this is FC housing so you must work as an FC to get it. Are you FORCED to get it? No... If you want it, then you work for it with your FC. Are the features for solo players FORCING you to solo??? No. If you want to solo then solo. If you want to play with your FC buddies then do that. They aren't MAKING people do anything. They are just giving incentives to help your fellow solo players out.

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Originally Posted by Yahavage

Using the word penalize would indicate some sort of reduction of tomes obtained since 2.1 by entering the duty finder with friends, but as that's not the case your point is moot.

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the amount of tomes for playing without using DR has remained static (actually gone down 30=>40 in the case of AK)

thus the overall progress towards completing your weekly tome chores has decreased by 1/3 per completed dungeon if you are playing with friends, i.e. not using duty roulette

you tried to slam me and you goofed twice in a one-sentence post

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Originally Posted by Norondor

the amount of tomes for playing without using DR has remained static (actually gone down 30=>40 in the case of AK)

thus the overall progress towards completing your weekly tome chores has decreased by 1/3 per completed dungeon if you are playing with friends, i.e. not using duty roulette

you tried to slam me and you goofed twice in a one-sentence post

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You get 50 with the new dungeons, so that more than makes up for the 10 tome decrease in AK, your point is still moot, you're not very good at this are you.

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Originally Posted by glen7187

But you haven't proved your point. Plenty of us are doing all the categories of the Duty Roulette. So where are you getting this "Nobody is doing this seriously" stuff from. Don't stress yourself out when you are trying to prove a point with data that doesn't exist.

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Yeah, i really can't prove the point because i don't have data on DF times and if SE releases a bunch showing things have roundly gotten better i'll be eating humble pie -- but please think about this for like ten seconds. Players are matched to dungeon groups when a tank, a healer, and two dps who meet the item level requirement for the dungeon they have selected are found and connected to a common instance server, is this not right? I see you play bard: are you commonly hitting the queue button and finding a group instantly? Or do you have to wait for a tank or healer? What exactly about including a daily log-in bonus would cause there to be more people playing bottleneck roles?

If you're consistently getting faster queue times -- cool, i guess. But most likely that's at the expense of another player who used to commonly play with friends who were in bottleneck roles and now has to wait instead of you. In some dystopian AI-controlled future ruled by sheer utilitarianism, preventing people from playing with friends so that strangers queue faster seems like it's probably a good idea, except i pay for this game to play with people i know, like, and have history with.

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Originally Posted by CyanDvai

You get 50 with the new dungeons, so that more than makes up for the 10 tome decrease in AK, your point is still moot, you're not very good at this are you.

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jfc

40->50 = 25% increase over previous tome income per average dungeon

300->450 = 50% increase in weekly tome income required to reach cap

i get that you're going for snappiness, but you can't just say "you're not very good at this" and that's the slam jam, you probably want to be able to at least do basic arithmetic first

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Originally Posted by Norondor

... and this in turn is based on the assumption that a random group in DF takes approximately twice as long to clear dungeons as a pre-formed group, which is most likely not the case, on average. In WP, as in your anecdote above, it totally can be that bad, 40m vs. ~20m -- but given that the duty finder bonus is larger than the bonus for actually clearing WP you'd have had to take a little more like an hour to make it an even amount of tomestones/hour.

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I'll give you that if your runs with your friends are generally slow, then yes it's more efficient to run duty roulette over 5 or 6 days. Depending on how slow you are compared to the average DF group will determine just how much more efficient it is, with it being twice as efficient if it takes you as long to run in a preformed as the average DF group.

However, 4-5 random DF runs does not directly translate into 9-10 preformed runs when trying to figure out time spent to tomes gained otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

So you'd rather have played with your friends? We're totally on the same page here!

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I'm not sure we are, because you seem to feel that this bonus is so large that you're obligated to leave your friends and join a solo queue. Considering the hassle and unpredictability of the solo queue, it's barely worth it for me to join when none of my friends are available. The bonus makes it just attractive enough that if I'm bored and no ones on, I might do it over working on crafting/gathering/alt. You'll never see me joining it when I have the option to run with friends instead.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

Yeah, i really can't prove the point because i don't have data on DF times and if SE releases a bunch showing things have roundly gotten better i'll be eating humble pie -- but please think about this for like ten seconds. Players are matched to dungeon groups when a tank, a healer, and two dps who meet the item level requirement for the dungeon they have selected are found and connected to a common instance server, is this not right? I see you play bard: are you commonly hitting the queue button and finding a group instantly? Or do you have to wait for a tank or healer? What exactly about including a daily log-in bonus would cause there to be more people playing bottleneck roles?

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Yes I understand what you are saying. But the queues are queues. First in, First out. Imagine there's 3 lines, 1 is for all DPS, 1 for tanks, 1 for healers. As a DPS, since like everyone plays DPS, the DPS line is super long. In order for the DPS line to move, we have to have a tank and a healer correct? Tanks instant queue because for the most part, the tank line is practically empty all the time. The Duty Roulette is giving an incentive for people to queue solo, and a higher bonus for in-demand roles like, the tank. This means, if more people go for the incentive, then more tanks enter the tank line. That means, the other 2 lines (healer and DPS) will move faster because more tanks are coming to the tank line. This, in effect, speeds up the queue.

I also understand that other roles are also going to take the incentive and pack up the healer and dps line even more. This can make the queue times the same or even longer which is definitely possible. So yes, your queue times possibly will stay the same in end-game content if you use the Duty Roulette. But what is this proving? That more than one person deserves to enter the Duty Roulette as a group? That isn't the intent of the DR. It is meant as incentive for solo players to queue in the DF. That's all it is. And you can continue to argue about difference in efficiency but at the most, all you are losing is a single bonus per day (if you only DR high-level content). This is not a penalty, you just don't receive a bonus. If you are arguing because you want to get things faster, that's more of a personal issue. Who are you racing against? And the option is available to you, just not in the way you want. You'll have to accept that fact and just enjoy the game in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

If you're consistently getting faster queue times -- cool, i guess. But most likely that's at the expense of another player who used to commonly play with friends who were in bottleneck roles and now has to wait instead of you. In some dystopian AI-controlled future ruled by sheer utilitarianism, preventing people from playing with friends so that strangers queue faster seems like it's probably a good idea, except i pay for this game to play with people i know, like, and have history with.

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Again you are making it seem like all of these things have been forced upon you when they haven't. Me getting faster queue times isn't at the EXPENSE of another person because that person has a CHOICE. If he/she wants to jump into the DR solo and make faster queue times for me, then great! If he/she wants to play with friends, he can do that too. He can't choose the DR but that's his choice. SE isn't PREVENTING you from playing with friends, they are giving you an INCENTIVE to play solo to help strangers. That's it! You want to help some solo people out? Cool, here's a bonus for your time. You don't want to help solo people? That's fine but this bonus is for the people helping the solo people so I can't give it to you.

That's all it is...

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

I'll give you that if your runs with your friends are generally slow, then yes it's more efficient to run duty roulette over 5 or 6 days. Depending on how slow you are compared to the average DF group will determine just how much more efficient it is, with it being twice as efficient if it takes you as long to run in a preformed as the average DF group.

However, 4-5 random DF runs does not directly translate into 9-10 preformed runs when trying to figure out time spent to tomes gained otherwise.

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Yeah, this is true. It's hard for me to think about exactly how my "usual" groups stack up vs a random DR group, since half the time i'm just going with someone who doesn't want to queue alone so they have someone to commiserate with if the other players are bad, or whatever.

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

I'm not sure we are, because you seem to feel that this bonus is so large that you're obligated to leave your friends and join a solo queue. Considering the hassle and unpredictability of the solo queue, it's barely worth it for me to join when none of my friends are available. The bonus makes it just attractive enough that if I'm bored and no ones on, I might do it over working on crafting/gathering/alt. You'll never see me joining it when I have the option to run with friends instead.

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I'll be honest and say that even if i don't feel obligated, i feel like i'm being incentivized to play without people i know, and even on its own that feels bad, especially when i really resent the weekly cap on tomes anyway. Combine that with the generally half-baked feel of much of 2.1 -- housing and the issues surrounding it, CT and the issues surrounding that, the recycled stuff/filler in the storyline expansion -- and it paints a pretty bad picture.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

Maybe if you got a divorce it wouldn't be a problem.

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lol

Ty for the laugh :)

But I support this thread. They should allow couples to use the duty roulette.

Another one of these weird and needlessly punishing decisions SE has made regarding the DF. A separate example was not allowing us to use our Chocobo Companion while in a queue. That needs to change as well. And sooner the better.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

it's not going to decrease wait times because the extra 40 myth tomes are not going to lure out the players

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Disagree. It makes me do every day, as a tank, at high level.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

if you break a four-person group up, the best you can say has happened is you've shuffled queue times around a little.

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Dude, yes! It is going to move the quick queue times from your static group, distribute that speed equally to each person waiting in the DF! Glad we could reasonably agree.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

"doing dungeons at endgame without using roulette is inefficient."

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Then you don't value playing with your friends enough to NOT use the DFR. And just because something is less efficient does not mean that it is not unusable, especially if the most efficient means is only available on a finite basis (i.e. once a day). So...in all likelihood you will still be doing dungeons with your buddies. I value playing with my friends, but so much to preclude myself from receiving this reward. You are confusing placing a value on something, and preferring it absolutely to everything else always.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

What kills me here is you conceded my point already -- that this system hurts normal players like you because you can't play with your friends as you admit you would prefer without being penalized....

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That is correct. But, show me the data that says that it is a more common occurrence for someone to queue into a dungeon with their friends than solo. They obviously implemented this system for a reason, and that reason would be to alleviate very very long queue times for those not going in with a fully formed party. Whether or not it was a good idea is based on how much it helps those people vs. how AGONIZING it is for you to interact with people other than your static group.

If the pain of doing something with someone other than your friends is so great that you turn down 210 mythology tomes / week, then I can safely safe that in my opinion, you are acting quite irrationally.

Also - RE: high school economic, rising wave of applause, seriously reconsidering my view of the world: LOL - k.

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Originally Posted by Norondor

I'll be honest and say that even if i don't feel obligated, i feel like i'm being incentivized to play without people i know, and even on its own that feels bad, especially when i really resent the weekly cap on tomes anyway. Combine that with the generally half-baked feel of much of 2.1 -- housing and the issues surrounding it, CT and the issues surrounding that, the recycled stuff/filler in the storyline expansion -- and it paints a pretty bad picture.

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LOL - you just don't like this game, buddy!

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Originally Posted by Norondor

i get that you're going for snappiness, but you can't just say "you're not very good at this" and that's the slam jam, you probably want to be able to at least do basic arithmetic first

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Not really a "slam jam" you keep repeating the same flawed reasoning for why you're upset even though everyone here is pointing out that you are not being prevented from doing what you want. All that was introduced was more options for people that play solo. All of your ranting is nothing but QQ

You have lost nothing. You can still group with DF you do not have to do DR.

You can do DR once per day for a total of 490 - 630 Myth (70 low, 90 high) total doing anything from WP to Haukke Manor. Depending on the quality of your group it can take you any where from 15 to 90 minutes to complete it (total time spent between 1 hour 45 minutes to 7 hours 30 minutes) or you can do what you did prior to the patch.

Premake your group or most of your group. They made AK easier (reason for the decrease in tomes) and WP is still any where from 10 - 15 minute run (maybe 20 if you go slow). If you spam WP and AK (which both can be done in 15 or less) you will have to run it 15 times which runs you about 3 hours and 45 minutes. I've heard people clearing Haukke Manor in 15 to 20 minutes, and that gives you 50 tomes so you only have to run it 9 times with your investment being 2 hours and 15 minutes to 3 hours.

So, the "best scenario" time for DR may be lower, but given the fact that you're rolling in random it's a slim chance you'll get that every time. You will have to be very unlucky to get horrible parties every time, so even if you average it out your time invested in DR for cap may be around 4 - 5 hours or so which is still more time invested for weekly cap than forming your own party.

Yes, I can do basic math, so stop your QQ and play the game.

If you want me to show you on paper the break downs I'll be glad to do another post.


PS, this isn't even including what you get from doing BCoB or CT, just the basic dungeons.

So you separate for 2 hours while playing you can still enjoy the game, my wife and I do that all the time. Each of us enjoys different aspects of the game as well as playing together. As matter of fact running those solo will give each of you a few pointers on different play styles and it may actually be enjoyable. So why not try it instead of complaining about something that wasn't designed for static groups to begin with. I would also like to say that if a couple has a tank healer combo, you are not saving any time in the DR as you will virtually insta queue in any instance. The DR was really geared towards reducing wait times for the solo DPS's in the game.