Enmity no longer an issue.

To the hotshots who claim the game is dumbed down now: Get over yourselves.

I am glad that enmity is more solid for both tank classes. No Paladin should have to find him/herself trying to keep up with a trigger-happy DPS who's only concerned with his/her parser score and not the task at hand. You really should be thanking SE. Now Paladins/Warriors won't be able to let you tank whatever he/she wasn't tanking directly.

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Originally Posted by Sucidaldeathtar

I was telling fc lastnight while doing coil enimty is to much now. I don't even have to hold back from nuking. It's getting to the point of to dumbed down pretty soon.

SE some people weren't meant to play this game stop dumbing it down. I left ff11 cause of this....

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Lifting your finger off the button is soooooooo hard. Qq moar.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Bad design is forcing people with level 55 weapons play the same dungeon as people with relics. Having people watching their damage/over healing is good design.

We need some connection between the people playing, which was what enmity meters gave us. Holding back on damage to not grab aggro, catching on when you can AoE, when you can't, when you can just focus on one mob because the other party members are attacking that one...

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I completely agree with you, but unfortunately people only work that way in theory. In reality, the i90 geared healer spamming Holy and Medica II or i90 BLM spamming Flare will just blame the i50-60 geared tank (probably learning the dungeon for the first time) in WANDERER'S PALACE for being undergeared, cause jeez everyone knows WP Dungeon Finder is for relic/coil gear onry.

Have you ever tried marking targets in a party (1, 2, 3, kill order) and get relic DDs to actually attack 1, instead of one of them bursting as hard as they can on 3 and the other bursting as hard as they can on 2, while 1 is untouched? I main DRG/BLM, and I follow kill orders if a tank sets them, so I know DDs can not be a-holes but the overwhelming majority of DDs I see have no concept of cooperation or responsibility or apparently even how to count.

Even if they got rid of gear imbalance by making gear sync to the ilevel of the dungeon post-50 (for example, your gear is synced down to i60 for WP/AK, which are both dungeons designed for i50 and drop i55 gear, so you'd still technically be overgeared, just not as dramatically) it wouldn't fix people being dumb, or asses, or both.

Greetings,

While there might be some situations where it is easy for a tank to maintain enmity, the overall balance of content difficulty has been adjusted by giving consideration to the struggle for a tank to maintain enmity.

Now if we could get shield oath first instead of sword oath mid level tanking would be great

I do think Paladin has too much single target enmity generation.

Famous quote by me (not really famous but something to think about):

Healer: "Can you flash more please?"
Me: "If I don't ever lose hate, how is this game fun for me?"

Never losing hate is the same as pac-man without the ghosts.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

While there might be some situations where it is easy for a tank to maintain enmity, the overall balance of content difficulty has been adjusted by giving consideration to the struggle for a tank to maintain enmity.

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So in other words some bads couldn't keep hate, whined, and you guys made the game even EASIER.

Sigh.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

While there might be some situations where it is easy for a tank to maintain enmity, the overall balance of content difficulty has been adjusted by giving consideration to the struggle for a tank to maintain enmity.

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Really the only way to combat this is to put Random Aggro; however, that puts a big X factor into the boss fights. The two design paths shouldn't be: "Tank will never lose single target hate" or "Random Aggro that the tank has 0 control over"

What if some bosses could reset their hate after HP benchmarks?

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Originally Posted by AdamuKun322

I did notice this in Ultima Weapon battle. The main tank and me were trying to get hate, but Ultima just remained on him. Of course after a couple of provokes, flashes, and shield lobs I managed to get it' hate.

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Uhhh, if it took all of that then something is seriously broken in a horrendously bad way. A single provoke is all it should have taken to get hate, as that's what it does: puts you 1 enmity above the highest person.

I wish this was true. I pull off plenty of tanks with bane and shadow flare. not on bosses I guess but certainly on aoe pulls.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

While there might be some situations where it is easy for a tank to maintain enmity, the overall balance of content difficulty has been adjusted by giving consideration to the struggle for a tank to maintain enmity.

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I have to completely disagree. In the coil I can hold hate guaranteed against better geared DPS classes that are trying very hard to pull hate from me. There is no "struggle" for me to maintain enmity at all. It's quite honestly to the point that I'm spending over half my time debuffing the mob as opposed to generating hate and I tell my party to do whatever they like since there is no way they can pull hate from me. I like that we generate more enmity now, but it went a tad bit overboard. I can't imagine how boring PLD must be right now.

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Originally Posted by jars

I wish this was true. I pull off plenty of tanks with bane and shadow flare. not on bosses I guess but certainly on aoe pulls.

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And this is why Tank and Spank bosses should die. Single target Pally enmity is through the roof with Shield Oath.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I have to completely disagree. In the coil I can hold hate guaranteed against better geared DPS classes that are trying very hard to pull hate from me. There is no "struggle" for me to maintain enmity at all. It's quite honestly to the point that I'm spending over half my time debuffing the mob as opposed to generating hate and I tell my party to do whatever they like since there is no way they can pull hate from me. I like that we generate more enmity now, but it went a tad bit overboard. I can't imagine how boring PLD must be right now.

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They can't win regardless of what they choose to do. I guarantee that had they put in something to force tanks to maintain high threat (paying attention), such as diminishing threat levels over time, people would complain it's too difficult to do because there's already too much for tanks to worry about. Cooldowns, stuns, positioning, dodging red, etc. The route they took, albeit the less stressful/active approach, won't scare away people from taking up the role when they need to. "Too much responsibility" is a lot scarier to folks than "boring".

Furthermore, besides doing exactly what people are doing now, I don't see how threat management is going to be any less boring to folks that find it currently boring lol. You're still using the same abilities. Maybe it's just a mental thing. Like knowing you have to wake up for work/class because you're obligated to, instead of waking up for work/class because you have a brighter future ahead of you, would probably make that action a lot more tedious.

Devs can say what ever they want. Currently as Pld I can generate so much hate it is impossible for any DD or Healer to even come remotely close to pulling hate. I went on an alt to help a group and on an Ilvl 71 pld I can keep hate off a ilevel91 blm with 0 difficulty with the blm going all out. How is that ballanced?

All situations at endgame are easy to hold hate unless you are just bad at your jobs. In that case failure should be encouraged to force people to get better.

Hate control should be a balance shared across the party... it is not even close to that now.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

Healer: "Can you flash more please?"
Me: "If I don't ever lose hate, how is this game fun for me?"

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How is it fun? I find performing my job to the best of my ability and and making sure that not a single mob gets past me to get at the squishy roles to be fun. Maybe if you don't you're playing the wrong role. It's like your healer friends letting you die and saying "If I don't have to deal with raising a dead tank mid-fight how is this game fun for me?"

I love how much easier it is to hold hate. Not because it was hard before, but now I don't have to worry about a BLM going nuts and ripping it off of me. Even when it's not my fault, I feel like it's my fault. Nothing feels worse than losing hate that is completely out of my control, because it still feels like I did something wrong.

The issue was almost never with ST hate, but aoe hate.
Tanks have fewer resources with which to generate aoe hate and do so at a slower rate per mob... IE Overpower is ~480 hate potency for 130 TP, plus a roughly 1.5x mod from Defiance for 720 hate pot per use.
Overpower can be used ~14 times before being completely TP starved.
Now, my Warrior with the Dual Harken, mostly I90 right side, and mostly DL left side has a potency value of about 1.06, last time I bothered parsing it.

For a dps, 1 damage = 1 hate. For a tank, 1 damage = X hate due to various factors which all come together to form hate potency... such as the 720 value for Overpower.
So if a tank has a pot-val of 1.06, 1 Overpower generates ~763 hate. This means that in theory, you can hit that mob for 763 damage without pulling it off the tank.

Hell, I would like someone to just go try it. Take an I80-ish Warrior, full DL, I90 weapon, Vit accessories, and an I80ish BLM also with I90 weapon. Have the BLM prep AF3. Find a mob and have the Warrior in Defiance hit it with Overpower and nothing more. Then have the BLM use Fire 3 on it while in AF3. The Fire 3 should hit for ~900, which is more hate than the Warrior put out using their 1 Overpower, so the mob should go to the BLM.

Now try this with Turn 4. 1 tank, 2 mobs, each with a dedicated ST dps. Your ~760 hate per gcd = 304 dps... Well this IS a lot of dps, but see if it is enough to hold BOTH mobs when 2 different DPS completely unload on each one.
DPS can SPIKE a lot more than tanks can. Warriors can compensate a little with Maim (if it is up beforehand), or with Berserk and Unchained. Paladins can get a bit of help from Circle of Scorn, though Fight or Flight does not affect Flash so there's no help there.

The game has always been designed such that IF a dps chooses to fully unload, they WILL pull aggro off of an equally geared tank... Unless the tank ALSO fully unloads. This works well in ST situations, but not so much in aoe. (Ive got an I84 BLM, if I start Wave 2 of Turn 4 right after switching into Fire with full mana and just unload on the Soldier, an equally geared tank wont hold it off me)

The answer is not "give tanks more hate". The answer is "DPS KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS".
The only things in the game that NEED to die in seconds are things that dont do any meaningful damage based on aggro. So it does not matter if a tank, dps, or healer has it.
The rest of the timed fights give you a solid minute to kill the mob, so there is no need to completely unload all of your burst at the start. Put up your buffs, dots, do 3 gcd's of LOW DAMAGE PREP WORK to let the tank get a hate lead... THEN blow the thing to kingdom come.

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Originally Posted by AdamuKun322

I did notice this in Ultima Weapon battle. The main tank and me were trying to get hate, but Ultima just remained on him. Of course after a couple of provokes, flashes, and shield lobs I managed to get it' hate.

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After Provoke and a quick agro generating skill, you should be able to steal asap.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

To the hotshots who claim the game is dumbed down now: Get over yourselves.

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But it is dumped down. You like dumbed and easy things. That's ok. Still it doesn't make more dumbed down, though.

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Originally Posted by Gokuhan

How is it fun? I find performing my job to the best of my ability and and making sure that not a single mob gets past me to get at the squishy roles to be fun. Maybe if you don't you're playing the wrong role. It's like your healer friends letting you die and saying "If I don't have to deal with raising a dead tank mid-fight how is this game fun for me?"

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I agree with you Gokuhan, I couldn't tell if Jubez187 was being serious or just trolling around, either way like you said he's probably not meant to be a tank if he thinks losing aggro is fun. :c

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

While there might be some situations where it is easy for a tank to maintain enmity, the overall balance of content difficulty has been adjusted by giving consideration to the struggle for a tank to maintain enmity.

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It only happens when you mix people using low level weapons with people in relic or better. Right now I feel like upgrading my Curtana would be a waste of tomes... since the only point of it was being better at generating enmity.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

I've tried stealing enmity as white mage, simply couldn't... Divine Seal, Regen, Medica II, Medica, I AoE healed all I wanted in trials without the bar even becoming yellow.

Am I the only one disappointed with this?

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Working as Intended.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

Really the only way to combat this is to put Random Aggro

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GW2 does that, GW2 fails in this respect its fights are chaotic and un-manageable.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

It only happens when you mix people using low level weapons with people in relic or better. Right now I feel like upgrading my Curtana would be a waste of tomes... since the only point of it was being better at generating enmity.

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I have heard increasing the damage of a weapon increases the rate at which enemies die

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

What if some bosses could reset their hate after HP benchmarks?

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Maybe more bosses like the golem in Qarn that randomly runs over to someone and punches them, or adds from Livia encounter that forcibly target a party member.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

I've tried stealing enmity as white mage, simply couldn't... Divine Seal, Regen, Medica II, Medica, I AoE healed all I wanted in trials without the bar even becoming yellow.

Am I the only one disappointed with this?

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Why in God's name would you try to steal hate? I still have a couple of tight enmity races with DPS geared similar to me, but prior to that I was losing hate to ANY Bard, Summoner, or Black Mage with primal weapons or Relic. If they had Relic+1 I just let them tank what they stole hate on, I can't fight everyone for hate. Getting hate was hard enough in groups, but holding it was worse. I'm ecstatic that it's easier now, but I'm still confused on why a healer is upset they can't get something to kill them when there's a tank. You're not supposed to get hit, that's the point.

Clearly the NPC critters don't follow PvP strategy for hate generation. That'd make all PvE fights real short and wipey.

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Originally Posted by Ricky

I have heard increasing the damage of a weapon increases the rate at which enemies die

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I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic :confused:

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

Why in God's name would you try to steal hate? I still have a couple of tight enmity races with DPS geared similar to me, but prior to that I was losing hate to ANY Bard, Summoner, or Black Mage with primal weapons or Relic. If they had Relic+1 I just let them tank what they stole hate on, I can't fight everyone for hate. Getting hate was hard enough in groups, but holding it was worse. I'm ecstatic that it's easier now, but I'm still confused on why a healer is upset they can't get something to kill them when there's a tank. You're not supposed to get hit, that's the point.

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Because one of the things I liked about FFXIV was how enmity was the responsability of everyone. As someone who came from WoW, I was excited that my worth as player wasn't measured by a damage/healing meter, but on how well I could play including keeping right behind the tank without ever pulling.

I honestly enjoyed the prepatch enmity as well, and never had any major issues with threat, so long as I had fight or flight for key moments of a fight (ie soldier/knight in turn 4) and was not incredibly out geared by the DPS I was grouped with. I never upgraded my Curtana to +1 until after the patch when I had no more upgrades to make.

In fact I had to go AFK in a HM Titan one day after the heart phase while tanking and my group cleared the content without ever pulling threat from me.

As it is now, there is next to no reason for a tank to lose threat unless they are doing something drastically wrong, or a something incredibly bad has happened (a big cure 3 on 5+ targets as an add spawns for instance).

I can understand the change for warriors since they have two buff/debuff combos to upkeep and weave inbetween threat combos, but I'd like to see a change to Paladin where I can make use of the excess enmity in an effective way as well. (As of now I can use stoneskin and riot blade to maintain my health/mana bar, but in most encounters this is very irrelevant.) They could add a third hit to the Riot Blade combo that reduced Rampart's cooldown by 1 second or something silly like that, but as it is now there's very little decision making and no chance of losing threat.

In all honesty though, I don't know if my character generates more aggro than other characters by some ridiculous character specific stat? There were a lot of tanks in 2.0 who mentioned having issues holding threat and DPS players who said x tanks can't hold hate -- and while I can understand there is some skill involved in certain encounters, the average boss fight really amounts to 1-2-3 x infinity and I never experienced any of the problems other tanks complained about.

The only real reason to improve to Curtana +1 now is a whole ~5 DPS and slightly higher limit break damage.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic :confused:

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Partial sarcasm. Higher damage weapon means more damage which means faster kills. Also every ability a Paladin has (including flash) generates enmity from the weapon damage. Curtana Zenith helps you stay ahead of highly geared DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Because one of the things I liked about FFXIV was how enmity was the responsability of everyone. As someone who came from WoW, I was excited that my worth as player wasn't measured by a damage/healing meter, but on how well I could play including keeping right behind the tank without ever pulling.

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The issue with the enmity game is it's only fun to you and other similarly minded people. It is not fun to me when you're a newly dinged level 50 with a grand company weapon battling tooth and nail to hold hate on ONE target in a random dungeon queue against a DPS that is SERIOUSLY overgeared. Shield Oath only provided an enmity boost to counteract the damage loss (20% for 20%). Point for point of damage on multiple targets you can only divide up a Rage of Halone combo to hold hate against a Quick Nock spamming Bard, AoE spamming Black Mage, and multi-DoTing Summoners spamming Ruin on one target while Garuda Egi attacks a second for a certain amount of time before losing all of them. DRG and MNK weren't as bad to hold hate on as they were usually on a single target unless they were tab-targeting and splitting their combos as well. There was no play for a new tank against a pro DPS. You either were there as decoration and to tank bosses, or battled endlessly to hold hate on 3 targets unsuccessfully and swearing to the heavens.

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Originally Posted by Maye

In all honesty though, I don't know if my character generates more aggro than other characters by some ridiculous character specific stat? There were a lot of tanks in 2.0 who mentioned having issues holding threat and DPS players who said x tanks can't hold hate -- and while I can understand there is some skill involved in certain encounters, the average boss fight really amounts to 1-2-3 x infinity and I never experienced any of the problems other tanks complained about.

The only real reason to improve to Curtana +1 now is a whole ~5 DPS and slightly higher limit break damage.

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I never had issues on single target tanking. Rage of Halone combos, flash, and Circle of Scorn make holding hate on them tolerable even with an ilvl 55 weapon. You might occasionally see one of the DPS catching up to you, but usually some movement or add mechanic slowed them down enough to hold them back a little. Losing hate on a boss usually meant someone popped EVERY cooldown they had and went ballistic the second Shield Lob went off assuming that generates a million points of enmity or something. The issue was usually in trash packs or when you were newly level 50 and undergeared holding hate against someone in ilvl 90 gear and a +1 relic. There was no way that enmity was ever going to generate correctly in that situation.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

While there might be some situations where it is easy for a tank to maintain enmity, the overall balance of content difficulty has been adjusted by giving consideration to the struggle for a tank to maintain enmity.

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Yeah, the difficulty of holding enmity.. you've totally removed it. Content now is a memory test to remember a scripted battle and a internet latency test to dodge stuff because those are the only mechanics from 1.23 you haven't gutted.

Great job...

Edit: I mean you use to have mechanics where PLD would have to generate a block then do a damage move and only THEN could they combo that into another move to get an enmity bonus. I'm sorry but this was better than 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3

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Originally Posted by Jadi

Edit: I mean you use to have mechanics where PLD would have to generate a block then do a damage move and only THEN could they combo that into another move to get an enmity bonus. I'm sorry but this was better than 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3

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Well, I agree with you that now a PLD rotation is mainly based on a 3-skill combo, plus some aoe aggro skills, but I'm not so much displeased about this. I used to tank with much more difficult classes in other games (ex: warden in LOTRO), but the pain in the ass in this game is the constantly present dodge mechanic: you have to constantly move, reposition the mobs/boss, move again.... all this in a game with serious latency/lag problems! This sometimes makes it a real pain.
I think that a more difficult skill management should go together with a revision of all the combat system: maybe a deeper skill management, but with less movement frenzy.
Well, that's my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

I've tried stealing enmity as white mage, simply couldn't... Divine Seal, Regen, Medica II, Medica, I AoE healed all I wanted in trials without the bar even becoming yellow.

Am I the only one disappointed with this?

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What changes were made? On my WAR, i never lost hate to WHMs. Even in my crappy barely 50 set, against WHM's hellbent on overhealing the crap out of me while spamming Holy in Cleric Stance ... I think what you're seeing is better play from the Tanks.

Edit: Above is Pre 2.1 >_>

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Originally Posted by Sylve

What changes were made? On my WAR, i never lost hate to WHMs. Even in my crappy barely 50 set, against WHM's hellbent on overhealing the crap out of me while spamming Holy in Cleric Stance ... I think what you're seeing is better play from the Tanks.

Edit: Above is Pre 2.1 >_>

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Shield Oath and Defiance generate more enmity than previously. Also it seems that enmity boosts on skills were increased and Overpower and Steel Cyclone had an enmity boost.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

The issue with the enmity game is it's only fun to you and other similarly minded people. It is not fun to me when you're a newly dinged level 50 with a grand company weapon battling tooth and nail to hold hate on ONE target in a random dungeon queue against a DPS that is SERIOUSLY overgeared. Shield Oath only provided an enmity boost to counteract the damage loss (20% for 20%). Point for point of damage on multiple targets you can only divide up a Rage of Halone combo to hold hate against a Quick Nock spamming Bard, AoE spamming Black Mage, and multi-DoTing Summoners spamming Ruin on one target while Garuda Egi attacks a second for a certain amount of time before losing all of them. DRG and MNK weren't as bad to hold hate on as they were usually on a single target unless they were tab-targeting and splitting their combos as well. There was no play for a new tank against a pro DPS. You either were there as decoration and to tank bosses, or battled endlessly to hold hate on 3 targets unsuccessfully and swearing to the heavens.

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Part of being overgeared means they can probably take a few hits from trash mobs too. They also have lower threat moves they can use (IE: Quelling strikes or evasive jump). There's a little threat bar up in the corner, they know when they're going to pull threat. They can hold back a little if they don't want to get hit.

A little extra threat was nice but it's gotten a little silly now. Especially on single target fights. I barely even use the butcher's block combo now other than a few times at the start of a fight to establish threat.



An odd side effect of this is that it creates a huge break in tanking ability before and after you have access to these buffs now.

I you're doing any of the lower level dungeons before you get access to your tank stance (30 for WAR, 40 for PLD), then it's much harder to hold threat. It's strange that it's actually harder to hold threat at the low levels (where content should be easier since you're learning your class) than it is at the high levels (where content should be harder now that you know it). It's also weird that you have this discrepancy between WAR and PLD in the 30-40 range where WAR has such a large advantage over the PLD here since the WAR will not only have the mitigation effects of the tank stance that the PLD has no access to, but have the benefits of increased enmity over the PLD here too.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

An odd side effect of this is that it creates a huge break in tanking ability before and after you have access to these buffs now.

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Not really, Overpower and Flash give a good chunk of threat now at lower levels in groups. Single target is still rough in trash situations though in mid levels, but I don't ever tank those instances since the roulette seems to only work as long as you want in Sastasha or nothing higher than Halatali. As long as you get a decent weapon every few levels you can hold hate easier at lower levels now until Defiance and Shield Oath. Previously the numbers were too tight that holding threat became a harder task the more item levels drifted apart, especially at 50.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

It only happens when you mix people using low level weapons with people in relic or better. Right now I feel like upgrading my Curtana would be a waste of tomes... since the only point of it was being better at generating enmity.

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this is why I keep some low level weapons honestly. as a +1 Relic healer I can throw one Cure in a place like Sastasha on Roulette and pretty much instant hate. I've found that wearing lower level gear helps prevent this.

Also...I like that hate is easier....even with the changes I still see awful tanks. Do you suggest changing it back and then having even more awful tanks who cant keep hate and then we just ruin the game for everyone? I can only take so many bad runs before I just don't want to run dungeons anymore. I ran Cutters Cry last night with a Paladin that had so many problems keeping hate that they insisted the mobs were out of their control. He wanted to stay on the Princess and have the healer kite the Marshall. Then on the worm, "I literally have no control of what happens here, its the way the game was designed." I never have trouble with this boss. After the healer died over and over, the tank became frustrated and finally complained about having to just spam flash. Now....imagine if you make it even harder to make hate. This situation would have been far worse.

What about going into dungeons, possibly as preformed parties, and allowing difficulty sliders much like you see in leves? Maybe a way to adjust enmity or overall difficulty?

u sir deserve best post of the year :)~

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Originally Posted by Hazanko

I agree with you Gokuhan, I couldn't tell if Jubez187 was being serious or just trolling around, either way like you said he's probably not meant to be a tank if he thinks losing aggro is fun. :c

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i think what he ment is that he didnt level to 50 so that hes a brick wall being healed there is no risk with no risk there is no fun ... but i dont think alot of people get it cause ive seen alot of people not do T5 cause they didnt wana waste time dying and wanted to wait for somone to kill it and see a ready kill stratgy AKA RISK Free they just wana go in do what they saw get lots leave ... where is the fun in that? i thought advantures come in forms not repeating same ..Cra* over and over ... i enjoy watching videos on youtube where i see people doin Titan Ex with 1 tank now thats fun scr*w tank swaping i wana do somthing out of the system and beat it :) thats fun

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

Not really, Overpower and Flash give a good chunk of threat now at lower levels in groups. Single target is still rough in trash situations though in mid levels, but I don't ever tank those instances since the roulette seems to only work as long as you want in Sastasha or nothing higher than Halatali. As long as you get a decent weapon every few levels you can hold hate easier at lower levels now until Defiance and Shield Oath. Previously the numbers were too tight that holding threat became a harder task the more item levels drifted apart, especially at 50.

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Just because you can hold threat at lower levels doesn't mean there isn't a big discrepancy before and after getting shield oath/defiance. You go from having to work at it at lower levels, and then becomes almost a non-issue after you get the tank stance.