Loot lockouts should be based on Job

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

No one is forcing you to do anything, but people come across as pretty hypocritical when the clamor for more content while blatantly ignoring a ton of the existing content. Whether it's your cup of tea or not it is still content you are ignoring.

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Your comment is bad, and ignored.

ITT: defending limits that prevent players doing content even though they can already beat that content; so it becomes - I don't want people to have more iL90 because they would be able to do that content easier and would clear that content more often and get bored and want more difficult content.

So instead let's just lock them out of the content and hope they don't find something else to put their money and time into that they enjoy more.

How about Caduceus/ADS/Twintania all had a 90% chance they drop a Wind Shard instead of a piece of gear? Would you feel better about not having locks and caps per character but per Job instead?

What's your solution? It's fine as is? Is that all you have to say about it?




edit: I say Wind Shard for anyone that ever needed W. Legs from Kirin.

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Originally Posted by Traek

Giving item lockouts per job gives everyone *MORE* content, and reason to keep playing.

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Yup, this is pretty much what I'm trying to convey here, I underlined the keyword in your sentence for emphasis. I still have yet to see a reason not to change it that will actually effect anybody in the long run. If anybody has an actual response to this, aside from the typical burn out response that really only effects the people who are already burnt out anyways, I would be happy to hear it.

I also feel CT should be per job. It's not the best gear in the game, so it shouldn't really need to be staggered like this.

Though I guess straight job lockout wouldn't work that well, either, given that three of the sets are shared between two jobs each.

I'd be fine with this, if they made it so that you can only need on gear and you can't greed things for your other job. Or,

Let's say you are tanking as pld and drg gear drops and you greed it. And later you get some tank gear. Both your drg and your pld should now be loot locked to that instance of BCB. My point is you shouldn't be able to roll greed on gear on one job and then greed the same gear on another job. If you could FC's could abuse the system immensely.

E.g.

Your on BLM, FC runs you through you get all the drg gear that drops. Then you switch to Mnk and you get all the drg gear that drops. Then you switch to smn, then brd, etc. Then you save your DRG. FC runs it again this time your on DRG rolling on no gear while someone else rolls on everything for their Main role that drops via greed. FC's could gear out to average il80+ in one lockout. As long as everyone has all jobs to 50. And tbh, I've seen quite a lot of people with all jobs to 50.

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Originally Posted by Ryios

I'd be fine with this, if they made it so that you can only need on gear and you can't greed things for your other job. Or,

Let's say you are tanking as pld and drg gear drops and you greed it. And later you get some tank gear. Both your drg and your pld should now be loot locked to that instance of BCB. My point is you shouldn't be able to roll greed on gear on one job and then greed the same gear on another job. If you could FC's could abuse the system immensely.

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I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or not but this system would effect greed rolls of course. If you are a pld and you greed roll a piece of drg gear then you are locked out of drg gear until the reset. Same goes if you're a pld and need roll pld gear, you're locked out of pld gear until reset. In the examples you give you're assuming that greed rolls would not lock you out, that isn't what I'm proposing at all since I completely agree that would be very broken.

Edit: Your post also brings me to good point that is specifically for coil, right now it's entirely possible that you could get very lucky and obtain 5+ drops from a single set of coil runs. The system I'm proposing would remove the chance for that to happen (unless all items are for different jobs), thereby in some cases, extending the duration of the content would last.

Burnt through the content on monday. So, why would a job lockout get people burn through content faster?

Heck, it would be awesome if I could REALLY do something with my other 50s.

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Originally Posted by Traek

Your comment is bad, and ignored.

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You don't help your argument by just simply saying their comment against yours is bad. If you can't make a proper counter-argument, I would probably just leave it alone.

My stance on lockout per job. I would only be okay with this if they made the requirements or lockouts more severe than they actually are. I like the system the way it is. However, I wouldn't particularly mind a system like this, but having multiple jobs geared equally on the same patch diminishes the value of the Armory System to me. If they did something like this, they would have to make it right and balanced so the value of the system isn't lowered by it.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You don't help your argument by just simply saying their comment against yours is bad. If you can't make a proper counter-argument, I would probably just leave it alone.

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There is no need for a counter argument when a statement is that blatantly bad. I'd just be acknowledging it as an actual argument if that were the case.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

My stance on lockout per job. I would only be okay with this if they made the requirements or lockouts more severe than they actually are. I like the system the way it is. However, I wouldn't particularly mind a system like this, but having multiple jobs geared equally on the same patch diminishes the value of the Armory System to me. If they did something like this, they would have to make it right and balanced so the value of the system isn't lowered by it.

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Not really sure the point you are trying to make. Why would you want the lockouts more severe then they are? A "right and balanced" system has already been discussed. Where is your issue with whats been discussed, and why? Isn't having multiple jobs geared equally increasing the value of the Armory system? How is it diminishing the armory system? Having multiple gimp characters makes the armory system valuable? You haven't really said anything except *it'd have to work, based upon stuff*.

Just out of curiousity...what would happen if no one rolls at all on an item? It would then drop to a random person. Would that person be loot locked for a week?

I would think it probably wouldn't happen on a rare/useful item but once people discover the loot table they will start to hold out for certain items.

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Originally Posted by Slowburn

Just out of curiousity...what would happen if no one rolls at all on an item? It would then drop to a random person. Would that person be loot locked for a week?

I would think it probably wouldn't happen on a rare/useful item but once people discover the loot table they will start to hold out for certain items.

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What happens when you have a full party (8/8) of people that already got their 1 loot per week?

These things; we must discover the answers.

Right??? I hope you dont have to go into the loot list and pass it each time. I could dc and still have my character logged in while the item drops.

If an item does drop to a person at random and doesnt count towards the lockout then it would be possible to obtain multiple items. Although it would be difficult with 3 separate parties...it would be possible to collude and collect infinite random items from CT.

It seems like the only effective way to do it would be for the item to be deleted if no one RNG. But then...will S.E. realize this? that is the question....

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Originally Posted by Slowburn

Right??? I hope you dont have to go into the loot list and pass it each time. I could dc and still have my character logged in while the item drops.

It seems like the only effective way to do it would be for the item to be deleted if no one RNG.

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Ya, they'd have to make it so everyone passes if they didn't do a roll. I hope they would have thought of this before hand.. but its good to bring up, so it doesn't become an *oversight*.

A simple but probably disliked solution would be that the item is considered passed and drops to the ground. If people do not want something enough to at least roll greed then it should not piss them off that nobody receives it.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

A simple but probably disliked solution would be that the item is considered passed and drops to the ground. If people do not want something enough to at least roll greed then it should not piss them off that nobody receives it.

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Its one of those lesser of two evils kind of thing. No one wants to see gear hit the floor, but getting an item on accident (forget to roll, or d/c) and being locked out for a week would cause some serious rage, real quick. Imagine it happening for a main char looking for a certain *one* piece to upgrade, then being locked out to a piece they already have i90 for. I would be pretty pissed. Lol

SE's current planned system is going to be way way way worse for items hitting the ground. I know when I go with my coil group, probably 80% of the loot is going to hit the ground till we get our bad RNG pieces filled.

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Originally Posted by Traek

Its one of those lesser of two evils kind of thing. No one wants to see gear hit the floor, but getting an item on accident (forget to roll, or d/c) and being locked out for a week would cause some serious rage, real quick. Imagine it happening for a main char looking for a certain *one* piece to upgrade, then being locked out to a piece they already have i90 for. I would be pretty pissed. Lol

SE's current planned system is going to be way way way worse for items hitting the ground. I know when I go with my coil group, probably 80% of the loot is going to hit the ground till we get our bad RNG pieces filled.

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That's pretty much how I feel about it, also if the lockouts were based on job and you do happen to miss something on the rare occasion that you accidentally pass or dc or something (not that you have a great chance of getting something everybody passes to begin with) at least you can try again without having to wait a full week. That alone would be enough to calm my rage personally. Seeing an item drop to the floor would be much better than reconnecting after a dc and getting locked out because you got the earring you didn't need.

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Originally Posted by Traek

There is no need for a counter argument when a statement is that blatantly bad. I'd just be acknowledging it as an actual argument if that were the case.

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Debating 101: If you can't make a proper counter-argument, you already lost the discussion.

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Not really sure the point you are trying to make. Why would you want the lockouts more severe then they are? A "right and balanced" system has already been discussed. Where is your issue with whats been discussed, and why? Isn't having multiple jobs geared equally increasing the value of the Armory system? How is it diminishing the armory system? Having multiple gimp characters makes the armory system valuable? You haven't really said anything except *it'd have to work, based upon stuff*.

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Point is, a system's value is diminished if everyone can be everything with the best gear without proper lock outs and rules to counter balance it. I don't recall necessarily arguing with anyone's ideas or suggestions here. All I said was that I prefer it the way it is now but a job based lockout isn't completely out of the question. I honestly think people should wait and see how content plays out and see if it is still a viable route after SE gets more into their comfort zone. But hey! My two cents.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Debating 101: If you can't make a proper counter-argument, you already lost the discussion.

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They already lost the discussion, thanks for agreeing with me. You just made my point.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Point is, a system's value is diminished if everyone can be everything with the best gear without proper lock outs and rules to counter balance it. I don't recall necessarily arguing with anyone's ideas or suggestions here. All I said was that I prefer it the way it is now but a job based lockout isn't completely out of the question. I honestly think people should wait and see how content plays out and see if it is still a viable route after SE gets more into their comfort zone. But hey! My two cents.

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You say the armory system will be diminished, but offer no evidence as to how it would be. The only thing you suggest is that we would be getting better or best gear in multiple classes. This is the very point, and benefit of the armory system, so it sounds like we'd be bolstering the armory system, while the current one diminishes it in actuality.

I wasn't saying you are arguing, just that your post was wishy washy and I was trying to flush out your mentality/ideas on the issue. Most of us have played MMOs for a while know, and can see/know how certain systems in place affect the game. It doesn't take "waiting and seeing" to know what will happen with a loot lockout system with 1 item per week per character.

Considering their armory system was one of their main selling points I really don't see the design decisions of this.

Yes you could do nearly all content in DL but back in other games I could raid with my main group on Monday night and log in my alt and do it with other friends the same week if I wanted to. To do this in this game you have to work around a core (advertised) feature that was ment to be a convenience.

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Originally Posted by HealBus

Considering their armory system was one of their main selling points I really don't see the design decisions of this.

Yes you could do nearly all content in DL but back in other games I could raid with my main group on Monday night and log in my alt and do it with other friends the same week if I wanted to. To do this in this game you have to work around a core (advertised) feature that was ment to be a convenience.

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Exactly, I really want to utilize the armory system to its fullest extent since that's one of the primary features keeping me in this game. Right now it really seems underutilized and all of the lockouts seem designed around a system that would normally require you to make an alternate character to play another class/job.

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Considering their armory system was one of their main selling points I really don't see the design decisions of this.

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This doesn't in any way interfere with the armory system. None of the locked-out gear is necessary for your jobs to be playable. There is enough gear accessible outside of locked content to enjoy pretty much everything in the game. You will probably need more for turn 5 but that's about it, and even then you don't really have to have all lvl90, so you can spread that stuff out across a few jobs instead of stacking it all on one if you are concerned with flexibility. While making alts is an option for the crazily-dedicated it truly isn't necessary as much as people are acting like it is.

at 450 myth tomes (could go up in the future patches) and coil runs you could potentially gear one class in a month or two in full i90 with the current loot rng. Yes I do agree with you that loot should only drop based on the jobs present in the instance but I think giving separate myths per class might be pushing it.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

at 450 myth tomes (could go up in the future patches) and coil runs you could potentially gear one class in a month or two in full i90 with the current loot rng. Yes I do agree with you that loot should only drop based on the jobs present in the instance but I think giving separate myths per class might be pushing it.

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I would somewhat agree with you if the myth tome cap was raised but the fact is, even at 450/wk, having an extra 5 dungeons to do per week is not going to solve the current issue. Many people are hitting the current cap within a few hours after reset using only their main class. Also, simply raising the cap does not gate people in an effective way, for example, if you raise the cap to 1000 then you can spend that entire 1000 tomes on a single class and gear it up extremely fast, if the cap was lower and based on the equipped job you could still only gear up at a relatively slow speed (for a single class) which is why the caps are there to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This doesn't in any way interfere with the armory system.

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I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. If I can make an alternate character and have an advantage over somebody who is trying to play an alternate job on their single character (ex. obtaining additional rewards on your alternate character while the person playing an alternate job on their single character gets locked out/capped) then that definitely interferes with the armory system. To me the entire point of the armory system is that I'm not supposed to have any good reason to create alts aside from vanity/rp. If you really think there is no advantage to playing an alt character rather than playing an alt job on a single character then you need to take your blindfold off.

Have they considered a soft cap? for instance once the maximum has been reached they can still obtain tomes but at a reduced rate? say 25%(or possibly lower) of the normal amount you would of received. It would still prevent players from advancing too quickly while also giving them the feeling that they are making progress.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This doesn't in any way interfere with the armory system. None of the locked-out gear is necessary for your jobs to be playable. There is enough gear accessible outside of locked content to enjoy pretty much everything in the game. You will probably need more for turn 5 but that's about it, and even then you don't really have to have all lvl90, so you can spread that stuff out across a few jobs instead of stacking it all on one if you are concerned with flexibility. While making alts is an option for the crazily-dedicated it truly isn't necessary as much as people are acting like it is.

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You can say the same for your main character. I'm sure you pass on all i90 things on your main because, after all you don't *need* it except for T5 *maybe*. Why do we even get i90 stuff? We don't need any of it to clear coil! With crystal tower they should stop dropping all i90 because you can clear everything with i80. Your logic doesn't make sense, whether it is needed or not, you can't deny the armory system is devalued if you aren't able to progress multiple jobs, like the armory system suggests.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

at 450 myth tomes (could go up in the future patches) and coil runs you could potentially gear one class in a month or two in full i90 with the current loot rng. Yes I do agree with you that loot should only drop based on the jobs present in the instance but I think giving separate myths per class might be pushing it.

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I agree 450 myth across all classes would get excessive. I think the 300 would be a better number because of this. SE seems to be doing the 450 myth to address the armory issue at the moment. With a better loot lockout system and 450 myth I think most people would be happy personally. It'd make sense to gear up your top class or two, then eventually three, and you'd still be able to progress other classes weekly with i80. Most of us just want a sense of progression, and something to do on more then our *ONE* job, which is not what an armory system suggests. I've already rolled my alt, and will be progressing it the same as my main. Maybe it will be a 2 day a week game now instead of 1 day.

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Originally Posted by Slowburn

Have they considered a soft cap? for instance once the maximum has been reached they can still obtain tomes but at a reduced rate? say 25%(or possibly lower) of the normal amount you would of received. It would still prevent players from advancing too quickly while also giving them the feeling that they are making progress.

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As far as I know they have not considered a soft cap. That is a decent alternative solution but it might still leave a sour taste in some mouths. None the less it's something to consider for sure.