Why does no one complain about Summoners?

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Also, miasma 2 has a chance to have an aoe effect, which means the move itself isn't an aoe.

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Yes, a 100% chance to hit everything in range. It's an AoE around you and hits as many targets as you can get it to. I'm not sure why you think it's single target

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Has it been tested more recently, that was a month ago, and in which a lot changes in a mmo. In 2.1 that very well may be fixed.
In that same reddit the comments show that unaspected means unelemental, so summoner shouldn't be getting buffed by it. Also, miasma 2 has a chance to have an aoe effect, which means the move itself isn't an aoe.

foe requiem "reduces all enemy elemental resistances by 10%. So it isn't like Disembowl for that buffs damage, while foe req makes enemies recieve more damage by elemental means.

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Foe buffs magical damage, period. All of summoner's spells benefit from it. It's very easy to notice with spells like fester. It's been tested and known for a long time now, and there has never been any changes made to it.

Tested Foe on Summoner/Scholar unaspected DoTs only a couple weeks ago. It works. The tooltip is inaccurate. It is like mentioned, "Disembowel for magic damage". Elemental aspect doesn't matter; Windbite, Flaming Arrow, Dragonfire Dive, and Ifrit-Egi are not affected by Requiem at all.

SMN is indeed powerful but as mentioned, it's also very much a "low skill magnet" job that obscures the few players who actually know how to play it AND do so with the "general populace". Don't expect it to get nerfed until people stop being terrible at it.

Just to mention some of the important points that allow SMN to shine in dps on turn 5.

• Bane on the scourges and snakes. Yes bane is limited to 3 additional targets, but as long as an encounter doesn't go over that cap, bane in conjunction with cooldowns is one of the most potent ability in the game.

• Capable of keeping dps up on boss while not only killing conflags and dreadknights, but also while being stuck yourself inside conflags and dreadknight's stuns. While most of the other classes are usually required to nerf their overall damage in dealing with these mechanics, SMN actually gain in dps from them.

• Range and mobility in dealing with twisters and fireballs in the last phase. Only BRD can match this.


On the topic of pet AI. All you're required to do for your pet is target a boss, hit obey. How easier do you want it to be?

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Bards offer good damage, but at the moment with specific crit builds they can be an extremely powerful dps. In twintania their ability to constantly be on the move while keeping up their dps is outstanding. Not only that, their ballads help everyone in party. (Which is why I have two, and you will see why.

Dragoons not only have a lot of health, they have a spectacular buff for my precious bards.! Disembowl buffs bard's damage, and when bard's are playing MP/TP songs, it brings their damage back to normal. Dragoons will be getting some fixes in 2.1 which includes buffing their damage.

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You shouldn't be needing much Mage's Ballad, even for Twintania. It's possible you meant Foe's Requiem, which, as already mentioned, does boost all of SMN's spells. If you really meant Mage's Ballad, then it seems disingenuous to say that SMN has MP issues when you already have a BRD taking care of that, especially right after you say that SMN gets no boost from other jobs. Even ignoring that you were wrong about Foe's, if SMN is actually running into MP issues then Mage's is a great boost for them. You say that Mage's is only acceptable if a healer is extremely low on MP, but I'd argue that they shouldn't be running that low to start with.

As for DRG, perhaps you'd be able to explain how a 10% buff overcomes a 20% debuff?

Sounds like everything you said about summoners and bards is that they are 'actually' useful in these instances. It's sounds as if you're saying that other dps don't have important roles in the areas you mentioned. What I hear you saying is that SE needs to make other roles more useful, and that the roles of SMN and BRD are so useful that to Nerf them would be ridiculous. That's what I hope you're saying.

Idk personally I tend to find summoners, oh forget it, why give SE another reason to toss out another needless nerf. But since I am going to run summoner for my 2nd coil group I just have to ask since I seem to out dps better geared anything than me, how should I go about conflags. Mainly if all of my dots drop because of timing and I cannot bane the conflag then proceed to fester how would if I happen to fall into that problem try to up the dps on it.

Simply don't let them fall. With practice you get a feel for when conflag is coming, you just need to make sure your dots all have >10 sec left on them when it appears, even if it means refreshing them early. You can sync your contagion to be in line with the short conflags too so that way you're sure your dots will always have a long time left on them. If they do fall on a short conflag there's a good chance it's going to blow up, but if it's a long one then it doesn't matter too much, just manually apply dots to it. You can also save enkindle for those times where you didn't do everything properly and need to make up for it.

The answer is really simple... because 90% of whinners haven't got to T4 coil yet. They haven't got to "pro" party yet. They believe that only way to finish coil is bard stacking and that bard is on the top of dmg charts.

Don't worry. When they get to T4 (3 months aprox) they will cry about summoner dots and summoners will be nerfed too. :)

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

*they have MP issues if they intend on fully dpsing. I've mained summoner on an alternate character and if you plan on fully dpsing with fester, then you can't afford to waste aetherflow on energy drain unless you have low mana.

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Just curious, but how did you end up with MP issues with only dps?

I keep up all my DoTs (Shadowflare, Bio, BioII, Miasma, MiasmaII if there are enemies nearby, Thunder, Virus when available), use Fester, Bane if there are other enemies close to the one I am currently attacking, Raging Strikes (before Fester), alternate between Spur and Rouse, Enkindle when useful, and use RuinII if I have spare time before I need to reapply any DoTs.

Tri-Disaster only when useful, and Eye for Eye during boss fights.

I seldom see my MP drop beneath 60%. The only time that happens is when I have to Raise multiple people. If I am actually the one screwing up here please tell me, I'd love to improve in any way I can.

Here is the problem with the AI. You put your pet to obey, it will only use 1 of its 4 skills, Wind Blade.
A good summoner will cast Bio/bio2/miasma/thunder and manually press contagion afterwards to prolong all 4 dots (use raging strikes before hand if available). Now, you pressed contagion on your pet, and now he is screwed up and will cast contagion on cooldown (not on command). So you press obey again afterwards, bit if there is an AOE need, your pet won't cast its 2nd aoe skill. So, you manually cast your pet aoe skill, and now your pet casts contagion automatically which can screw up your rotations with dots. To be honest, after playing WOW, one thing they did right was the pet system and pet management. I can't believe it even took SE 1 month to move summons skills off the GCD, which should have been done before the game's release, but they need to make pets actually intuitive like having each ability having an autocast toggle.

Finally, about SMN DPS, lets look it over
Bio: 40x18(6) = 240
Bio2: 35x30(10) = 350
Miasma: 20 + 35x24(8) = 300
Lightning: 30 + 35x18(6) = 240
1130 total potency. With perfect contagion, lets give that a 33% increase in damage
1500

so far, so good, as these spells have fairly strong combined potency. The average length is 22.5 seconds, and lets say Contagion is used perfect every 60 seconds adding 13s/2 = 7 seconds generous (since it won't be applied with full dot uptime, and is not always available). So, average dot time of 29.5 (call it 30) seconds in 4 GCD's so that leaves you 20 seconds of "filler" time in a rotation, or 8 ruins (80 potency).

so, in 12 GCD's, you have
4 GCD, dots with contagion = 1500
8 GCD's Ruisn 8x80 = 640
2140/12
= 178 potency per spell average with perfect cooldown

this ignores Fester, lets add in 3 fester per minute, 1.5 per 30 seconds and its off GCD, so
2140 + 450 / 12
= 215 potency
adding in perfect pet, say 900 pot

= 290 potency per GCD,

which is pretty respectable for single target I admit! this is very best case scenario though


Lets compare to BLM
Fire 270 pot with UF
Fire III 396 pot (can be instacast free proc)
Thunder III 60 + 35x24(8) = 340 pot (can be instacast free proc average once per 30 seconds)

so lets say a BLM rotation
Thunder III 340
Fire III 220
Firex5 270 each
(2 free Fire III 296)
Blizzard III 154

so in 10 rotations, we have
2064/10 = 206 potency

so it appears that SMN does better single target than BLM.

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Originally Posted by Squa

character limit

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Garuda doesn't jump off Obey when you manually pres Contagion or aerial slash and you don't want her using anything but wind blade on her own, it slows down her dps otherwise. Titan I always leave on Sic and Ifrit isn't worth using so I don't know if they jump off obey. I know fairies do but Garuda does not.

Also there's no way a pet could know when you want to use contagion or aerial slash. I'd never leave it down to the AI.

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Originally Posted by Pentacus

our DoTs hit for about the same as a BLM's spells except for one significant difference: Clipping

IIRC, an astral fire 3 buffed fire 1 hits for 240 potency, a Bio 1 hits for 240 total potency over 18 seconds.

therefore, fire 1 and bio 1 hit for the same amount of damage per cast.

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I would like to add that you failed to add the +30% heal and harm damage to bio all smn attacks have a +30% perma bonus to damage

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Originally Posted by Benaire

I would like to add that you failed to add the +30% heal and harm damage to bio all smn attacks have a +30% perma bonus to damage

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BLM has the same trait, so it's no difference.

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Originally Posted by Benaire

I would like to add that you failed to add the +30% heal and harm damage to bio all smn attacks have a +30% perma bonus to damage

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Damage is damage, potency is potency.

Nerf summoner! (Have they forgot about the Bards yet???)

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Garuda doesn't jump off Obey when you manually pres Contagion or aerial slash and you don't want her using anything but wind blade on her own, it slows down her dps otherwise. Titan I always leave on Sic and Ifrit isn't worth using so I don't know if they jump off obey. I know fairies do but Garuda does not.

Also there's no way a pet could know when you want to use contagion or aerial slash. I'd never leave it down to the AI.

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Would be nice if Contagion was actually a SMN ability and not tied to Garuda, its pretty much being used that way anyway and would give more cause to use Ifrit on occasion

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Originally Posted by GodzillaMagnum

Summoners CONSISTENTLY out damage every other class ... Yet bards are the ones that get all the hate?

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SMN hate thread, are we trolling SMNs? Jealous much?

This is strange, I have been sitting at a test dummy for the past while, and testing my BLM and SMN. On paper SMN looks really good, better than BLM. Here is some of my test results (SMN and BLM have identical gear except for weapon which is ballpark)

SMN all 4 dots tick damage
Bio/Bio2/Miasma/Thunder = tick damage is average 345 per 3 seconds, 289 scaled down to 2.5 seconds (GCD)
Rune damage is 184 = 2.5 GCD
Garuda damage is 190 = 160 scaled to 2.5 GCD

So, every 2.5 seconds , if I have all 4 of my dots tick, a Rune hit, and Garuda hit, scaled down to 2.5 seconds
160+184+289 = 633

My BLM Fire normal hits for 668 average. So, in reality it seems as the BLM does more damage per GCD than SMN. To bad parsers are so inaccurate for this game to get real answers.

so you are right they do both have it.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Would be nice if Contagion was actually a SMN ability and not tied to Garuda, its pretty much being used that way anyway and would give more cause to use Ifrit on occasion

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Ifrit would only be worth using if you need his stun. Garuda's still better DPS.

@Squa - Fire is considered part of a BLM's burst phase since they have to cooldown with ice casts to regen mp

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Originally Posted by Squa

This is strange, I have been sitting at a test dummy for the past while, and testing my BLM and SMN. On paper SMN looks really good, better than BLM. Here is some of my test results (SMN and BLM have identical gear except for weapon which is ballpark)

My BLM Fire normal hits for 668 average. So, in reality it seems as the BLM does more damage per GCD than SMN. To bad parsers are so inaccurate for this game to get real answers.

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Looking at numbers on a dummy is nice and all but it doesn't take into account the mechanics of the fights. If you care about parse numbers I outdamage my group's BLM by more than 100 dps on turn 5.

You also forgot shadowflare.

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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl

Has it been tested more recently, that was a month ago, and in which a lot changes in a mmo. In 2.1 that very well may be fixed.
In that same reddit the comments show that unaspected means unelemental, so summoner shouldn't be getting buffed by it. Also, miasma 2 has a chance to have an aoe effect, which means the move itself isn't an aoe.

foe requiem "reduces all enemy elemental resistances by 10%. So it isn't like Disembowl for that buffs damage, while foe req makes enemies recieve more damage by elemental means.

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Just to add something. If i dont have a bard using requiem with me as a scholar, I'll deal like maybe 160 / 190 dps top. With a bard usin requiem make that 270. (granted I crit a lot, that's another topic :p )

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Garuda doesn't jump off Obey when you manually pres Contagion or aerial slash and you don't want her using anything but wind blade on her own, it slows down her dps otherwise. Titan I always leave on Sic and Ifrit isn't worth using so I don't know if they jump off obey. I know fairies do but Garuda does not.

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Exactly. I came here to say this. I see all these people saying that smn jumps off obey. It only comes off Obey if you're dead. In which case you have to summon it again. Er-go Garuda comes off Obey when summoned. So just make sure you guys keep that in mind.

The answer is simple. The same idiots who cried about BRDs being OP haven't seen the content in which SMNs shine.

But BRDs being nerfed makes little difference, the party still needs one of us even if we lose 10% of our DPS. If SMN were to be nerfed, I couldn't say the same about them.

ok sorry not to sound like a troll but it's bugging me ... it's RUIN and not RUNE.

DOT is gimped in parsers tho...

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Originally Posted by NIRVANA-J

Ppl just dont know how to use smn correctly. A bit like pentacus who still believes ruin 2 only has an 80 potency. Ill try resume and simplify what damage a smn really can do. gonna leave out the eventual critical hit dammage and just give the minimum i can do to a single mob.
Mine is a lvl 90, still not fully allagan equipped so i can still deal even more damage.

With just a simple rotation i can constantly deal out 770 every 3 sec. Not 170 as Madoka seems to think.

ruin2-180, pet-180, miasma-80, bio-90, bio2-80, thunder-80, shadow flare,80.

every minute and can also deal 1700

2 festers-1700, energie drain-300

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please explain how ruin 2 doesn't do 80 potency, the tooltip SAYS it does 80 potency, so unless there is a tooltip error I don't know how it does anything different.

unless you're talking about damage, which you seem to be in the rest of your post. in which case, I wouldn't be telling other players that they can't play summoner very well when you haven't grasped the difference between damage (a number dependent on so many factors, like your gear, your buffs, your party makeup, the enemy you're fighting), and potency (a static number that is what damage is scaled off, in other games it's often called the "Damage Coefficient").

damage is a personal thing, potency is universal. that is why it's used instead of damage, it's independent of gear.

I don't think that people are annoyed by BRD for the reasons that you say, but playing a Dragoon in the first place is a very arduous and unrewarding experience. All work and no play, as it were. You mess up a GCD, your entire rotation goes to hell.

Where by contrast BRD has like no ramp up time at all and is full dps all the time.

but idk man, how come warlocks are the only class in the game in wow that is competitive every tier / season? how come no one ever asks for them to be nerfed as hard as warriors xlolxswag?

we will never know :s

As someone who plays nothing but SMN, I hope they don't ever improve the combat log so that SMN damage can be fully parsed.

If your proof of summoners "out damaging" everyone else's class is from a parser, then your proof is invalid due to the DoT calculating glitches. Bard still out dps's a summoner.

Yea Summoners feel pretty weak overall, no need to nerf us :rolleyes:

Why am I the only one that complains about the 2 useless cross-skills from the archer? xD
That said, there's no need to nerf Summoners, due to the stigma of bad DPS, there's only a handful left.
BUT - I do talk a lot of fancy stuff in my FC about Summoners, now we have like 5 or more and I was the only one for like 3 months xD

Both magic classes who have Archer have 7 cross class skills, 2 being utterly useless.

I know Hawk's Eye is useless, but what else in ARC can be remotely considered useless? Surely not Quelling/Raging Strikes?

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Originally Posted by T0rin

I know Hawk's Eye is useless, but what else in ARC can be remotely considered useless? Surely not Quelling/Raging Strikes?

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I think he means that Surecast is useless, too.

I mean, it is.

I've only used it a few times seriously. It's only useful if you ever need to hard-cast a rez, or when running to the stack for Fireball(twintania),

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Originally Posted by Kevee

I think he means that Surecast is useless, too.

I mean, it is.

I've only used it a few times seriously. It's only useful if you ever need to hard-cast a rez, or when running to the stack for Fireball(twintania),

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For sure... but to quote him...

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

Why am I the only one that complains about the 2 useless cross-skills from the archer?

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Originally Posted by T0rin

For sure... but to quote him...

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Maybe he thinks Quelling Strikes is useless? I don't know..