Item Level too high

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

You know how those stat numbers are determined? The ilvl and how it determines the stat "caps" on each piece of gear. To change ilvl would mean to change the stats on every piece of gear or even rebalance everything in the game to make up for the loss of stats everyone will have due to ilvl being lowered.

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Okay, I suppose I get it a bit more now. I'm not calling for ilvl to removed, or lowered, my first post in this thread was saying 'its too late now'. What I'm saying is it shouldn't have existed in the first place imo.

Ilvl determines how much stats you can put on a single piece of gear. For example, let's say an ilvl 50 hat has budget 30 item points allocate stats with, and let's say every one point of Strength, Vitality, etc. cost 1 item point to put in the gear and every one point of secondary stats cost 2 item points to put in. You then use that to put stats in the gear without going over the cap.

That would be a rough example how ilvl works. Different items will have different stat caps on them even if they are the same ilvl, like how in FFXIV chest and leg pieces have more stats than hands. Ilvl will also probably always exist, regardless if you can see it or not.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Okay, I suppose I get it a bit more now. I'm not calling for ilvl to removed, or lowered, my first post in this thread was saying 'its too late now'. What I'm saying is it shouldn't have existed in the first place imo.

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As a player, you should never call for a developer to display less information. That's a horrible attitude imo.

ilvl exists in pretty much every game as a metric the developer uses to determine the strength of each item and the stat budget they can put on it. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not there. Its also a large part of this game considering materia assimilation and melding, and ilvl requriements for dungeons (which is good thing!!).

You can say it shouldnt have been displayed in the first place but in the end if the developer doesnt do it, the players will do it themselves.

As long as our numbers don't get like WoW I don't care. Everyone running around with 100k+ hp doing even more dps... nice change to see small numbers again.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

What I'm saying is it shouldn't have existed in the first place.

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It's really difficult to manage over a thousand items without a system of accountability. Items level is a proven and reliable system as most developers use it item-intensive games.

It really kind of blows my mind why this bothers people.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

It's really difficult to manage over a thousand items without a system of accountability. Items level is a proven and reliable system as most developers use it item-intensive games.

It really kind of blows my mind why this bothers people.

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Numbers scare people don't you know. Why else would they replace them with utterly useless bars?

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Originally Posted by Nocens

Well that stats of the gear only minimally increases with each upgrade, the ilvl means nothing ingame dunno why they even bothered to put it on the gear

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OK Nocens I am really sorry that I missuse this thread but I can't stand it anymore why does your Miqote look exactly like my Miqote befor I turned it into a Lalafell I mean everything is the same, hairstyle Haircolor, Eyes I bet even the same voice ohh boy.. please just answer me.

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Originally Posted by coffeeking

yeah it's quite dumb it's already higher then our lvl now :\

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http://www.theprospect.net/wp-conten...e-new-here.jpg

I agree with OP it's a little ridiculous. And 1-50 they do tie to level, then after that yet don't so it is a little funny IMO. Even on equip sets, they say ILvl of wpn and job, implying I have a "lvl 90 blm". And my 50 Smn is just a "45 smn". So yea they kinda do tie it to your actual level. I'm not saying its a big deal, but I do think it's sloppy and I do roll my eyes.

Personally I think an equip level a rarity-tier is better. But at te end of the day I'll enjoy the game so whatever.

I would have preferred a subset of lvl 50 gear -- use star ranks or something along that line.

For example:

iLvl55 → lvl50-1*
iLvl60 → lvl50-2*
iLvl70 → lvl50-4*
iLvl80 → lvl50-6*
iLvl90 → lvl50-8*
iLvl95 → lvl50-9*

When cap is raised, the process can start over again:

lvl60-1*
lvl60-2*
etc...


Of course, this is built on the assumption that all future Lvl 60 weapons, mobs, and content will actually be more powerful than the current ilvl95 (or whatever the final iLvl is before cap raise).

Perhaps it is to facilitate the implementation of iLvl checks.

If iLvls are of small increments (e.g 50 for AF 51 for AK 52 for DL) it will be hard to accurately set iLvl restriction for dungeon content as it does not take decimal into account

I still don't see a problem here. The only complaint seems to be "I don't like looking at big numbers."?

If the stats of an item level were to match the stats of an actual player level, then the effect of each point in STR/DEX/INT etc. would have to be significantly higher (x3 or x4) than what we have right now. iLvl90 items were designed to be coil-equivalent for that reason, so if they drop Allagan gear down to iLvl65 then the current stats on the item would be reduced as result, and the overall effectiveness of each point in stats would have to be boosted by 3 folds. Think about materia, each +1 stat point materia would render a piece of gear jump in item level in theory, unless they reduce the materia down to +0.1 to +0.5 each... but then again, what is the point of that?

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

I still don't see a problem here. The only complaint seems to be "I don't like looking at big numbers."?

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That is pretty much what it boils down to.

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

Perhaps it is to facilitate the implementation of iLvl checks.

If iLvls are of small increments (e.g 50 for AF 51 for AK 52 for DL) it will be hard to accurately set iLvl restriction for dungeon content as it does not take decimal into account

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There's this. Larger iLvl increments mean content with iLvl requirements allow a broader range of gear that can be mixed together.

It's also to encourage people to actually upgrade. If the ugly hat were only +1, more people would choose to be pretty than when the ugly hat is +10. (Oh sure, you're super-smart and look at every stat and do all the math, but remember, you're reading a forum dedicated to the game, let alone posting in one, which means you're putting much more energy into this than the average player.)

If the ilvl numbers aren't big then the stat numbers won't be. If the stat numbers are lowered to not be big in following expacs then the game needs to be rebalanced to make up for the stats being lowered.

Many games have done it already and the biggest of which is WoW(which is doing it in the next expac). To call for ilvl or stat nerfs already is just insane when it would require everything to be rebalanced in the already new game. Why should devs have to rebalance the entire game when it just came out not long ago when they could keep resources to actual new content or gear. Rebalancing things in the game isn't something that is done right off the bat because people don't understand that if ilvl isn't shown then players will find a way to make it show, it's something that's done several expacs later when things really are out of hand and the game actually has feet to stand on.

Item Level progression makes it so vertical....this game needs more horizontal progression ; ;

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Item Level progression makes it so vertical....this game needs more horizontal progression ; ;

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Can't really have horizontal gear progression with gear only having basic stats. All it would end up being is that you have a lot of useless gear and 1 BiS setup that is theorycrafted the best through stat weights. Horizontal gear progession won't work with the game as it stands, they need to add non-stat attributes first.

This game is like wow. When they come out with an expansion the first piece of gear you get at the new cap will be better than your best in slot from the last cap. Everytime an expansion drops it will be a completely new gear farm where nothing you had carries over. If anything you might be able to use AF2/3 etc as entry level gear for dungeons in the new expansion.

Oh and when it comes out, all the new raids will make people stop running the old ones.

At least, if the continue on track, thats what I bet will happen. I don't want this to happen, but that's how wow was. Every new expansion was a mad dash to rush through it before the next expansion came out and the previous expansion died.

I don't mind as long as we don't get health and damage numbers over 10,000. It scares me that we already have people at 6,000-7,000.

ilevel can go on forever. It has nothing to do with physical player level.

And don't assume they need to be near each other for any reason.

At level 70, who cares if we have itemlevel 450?

I hope you are aware that warriors can already get upwards of 11,000 as of right now.

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Originally Posted by Awrini

I hope you are aware that warriors can already get upwards of 11,000 as of right now.

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That's disappointing to hear. For what purpose do the numbers need to be so large at such an early point in the game's life?

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Originally Posted by zdub303

Can't really have horizontal gear progression with gear only having basic stats. All it would end up being is that you have a lot of useless gear and 1 BiS setup that is theorycrafted the best through stat weights. Horizontal gear progession won't work with the game as it stands, they need to add non-stat attributes first.

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That is exactly my point :( I was hoping someone would point this out ^^ I want our 1.0 stats back...that was a start in the right direction.

The only potential problem I can see in the future is new vs existing players. And it may not even be a problem depending on how they itemize it.

Say the level cap is 70 at some future point, and the ilvl cap is like 150. If a fresh 70 comes in with ilvl 70 gear, they are up to 80 ilvls behind the existing playerbase. Currently, a new 50 is at most 40 ilvls behind the top players. When the ilvl outpaces the real level significantly, it increases the gap between new and old players, possibly intimidating people from trying to get into endgame.

Now, this isn't a problem at all if a fresh 70 were given, say, ilvl 100 items when they capped. So like I said, it's just a case of how they itemize things.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

That is exactly my point :( I was hoping someone would point this out ^^ I want our 1.0 stats back...that was a start in the right direction.

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One step at a time. They seem fairly conservative atm, don't want to make any huge mistakes. I'm sure the game will get there but it'll take time. I suspect we won't see horizontal gear progression until the first or second xpac.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

That is exactly my point :( I was hoping someone would point this out ^^ I want our 1.0 stats back...that was a start in the right direction.

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Even then there is going to be a BIS set in this game that makes horizontal progress not work, the only reason it worked it FFXI and stuff was the armor swapping/necessity of buffing every action separately. And I for one am glad we don't have that silly armor swapping anymore.

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Originally Posted by Amused

That's disappointing to hear. For what purpose do the numbers need to be so large at such an early point in the game's life?

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thats...with full item level 90 gear, party buff, defiance, and thrill of battle too. (possibly food as well, and max vit allocation)

so its not a default number, without buffs, warriors have similar hp levels to paladins. their class skills give them the big numbers.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

thats...with full item level 90 gear, party buff, defiance, and thrill of battle too. (possibly food as well, and max vit allocation)

so its not a default number, without buffs, warriors have similar hp levels to paladins. their class skills give them the big numbers.

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Well, if it were up to me, health numbers wouldn't even be four digits yet. Regardless of how situational it is, it's still disappointing to hear that we've already reached five digits and the game has only been out for a few months now. I know that some people consider ARR to be an expansion, but I prefer to look at it as a re-release and treat it as a new game.

Oh well, it's not like there's anything I can do about it I guess. I just wish this wasn't the case.

Its easier to differentiate between average item level averages when the numbers have decent gap between them. If you have 5 pieces of gear with item levels 70, 60, 60, 50 and 50, your ilv average is 56. 5 pieces of gear with 90, 90, 90, 60, 60 gives an average of 78. You can set better thresholds that way. If ilvs were just 54, 53, 51, 51, 50, the average is 51 rounded up. 5 pieces of gear with 54, 54, 54, 51, 51 gives an average of 53 rounded up. When you do the ilv checks in duty finder its better to have thresholds of ilv60+ or ilv70+ average. When significantly better gear results in just 2 points of difference on average when ilvs go up by just 1 instead of 10 it allows for much less freedom.

In the end though, it really is just numbers. Bigger numbers actually offer more variation and room for separation. MMO players want to see improvement. And seeing a new piece of gear letting you do 10 extra points of damage per hit is way more satisfying than 1 extra point of damage per hit.

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Originally Posted by Amused

-snip-

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as long as the numbers aren't ridiculous as a certain...longer running mmo...i'm happy

(1 million DPS is a thing? seriously?)

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

as long as the numbers aren't ridiculous as a certain...longer running mmo...i'm happy

(1 million DPS is a thing? seriously?)

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Yeah unfortunately in WoW there are people doing Millions of DPS now. It's kind of crazy, but it works for them.

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Originally Posted by Amused

That's disappointing to hear. For what purpose do the numbers need to be so large at such an early point in the game's life?

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Mostly because war's are made to take huge numbers in the face without any mitigation at all, and they need a huge hp pool to substain it. This until 2.1.

I find that rampant inflation usually comes from poorly designed encounter. Let's say level cap gets raised to level 60 tomorrow and a corresponding amount of content/gear comes out. If we take the WoW model where things in the last expansion is more or less trivial when done in current expansion gear, then what kind of gear do you need? Well for one you probably need to be able to survive an Earthen Fury on Titan HM without destroying the heart, so that means everyone needs to have 12K+ HP, since there's nothing special about Titan HM that require it to remain non-trivial. And that'd be a ton of gear inflation to satisfy this. Without debating whether new expansion should trivialize the older one, if that's the path you chosen (and almost every MMORPG is on that path now), you have to be really careful with your design. A lot of time it feels like the devs just put a very large number (like Earthen Fury without killing heart) and say 'Nobody could possibly survive that', and then next expansion comes around and now suddenly you're expected to survive that due to player's expectation of older content should be trivial.

Of course, the solution to this is that Titan's Earthen Fury should just do 5000 damage unmitiigated by any ability, which renders it unsurviveable by anyone but tanks (so you'll still wipe), but we can easily imagine a level 60 party have say 6000 HP and just tough it out if they're unable to kill the heart for whatever reason.