Dear Healers that don't DPS in dungeons

At the moment my Scholar is my highest level job at 40, together with Summoner. And I have a Whitemage sitting at level 36. So all this end game stuff is still pretty far away for me. Altoholic and slowpoke leveler :D

Anyways, when doing dungeons I'll cast DOT's on the (hopefully) marked mob, and if the other party members health permits some ruins/stones depending on the job I'm playing. However should the tank take a lot of damage. Then I'll heal first and DOT second :)

This tactic worked fine so far :)

Choosing to heal and cast no hostile spells as a healer is not poor play. I guess I come from MMOs where healers actually heal. If the content people are forced to run is so trivial that this is actually expected as good play, and good play is not defined as actually using skilled healing through progression, then I'd say I'd jump ship but I bounced a while back.

Do we really have to have this debate again for a third time in what's basically a recruitment thread?

If a tank/free company wants healing-only healers to join up that's their business, when you're playing in a static party your main priority is whatever makes the run most enjoyable for your group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toystore

Choosing to heal and cast no hostile spells as a healer is not poor play. I guess I come from MMOs where healers actually heal. If the content people are forced to run is so trivial that this is actually expected as good play, and good play is not defined as actually using skilled healing through progression, then I'd say I'd jump ship but I bounced a while back.

---

I too come from MMOs where only healing is the best play or the only play. But this game is different. A healer that doesn't do anything when healing is not needed is a bad player.

That is fair

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

I too come from MMOs where only healing is the best play or the only play. But this game is different. A healer that doesn't do anything when healing is not needed is a bad player.

---

There's never not something to do, really, in these dungeons. And if you're speed running them, I really don't see how you can DPS anyway during that. I'm way too busy healing the snot out of the tank.

It's funny because the White Mage quest is all about how they are healers, and that's their role. Sure, you use Stone and Aero to damage things during the events, but the flavor text is all about healing. :D

So I guess that means you'll take a healer for Twintania that dpses in AK but can't heal progression for crap versus a healer that doesn't DPS in AK and is really good at doing their job where it counts.

Before you scream false dilemma on that, what you're essentially arguing is mastery vs. performance, and I can turn it around on you and say if the dungeon is completed, who cares whether the healer was DPSing or not. It's about mastery, not performing objectives right? Therefore the good healer is the one that shows mastery over non-trivial content. And to pre-empt your final argument, no it's not the one that shows mastery over difficult progression and dpses in AK, hard content skill disparity doesn't work that way. The guy who is in the 0.01% of healers on progression is your good healer whether or not he dpses AK. But you can totally take the guy that's in the top 10% of healers that you KNOW dpses AK, since they're both masters at raid healing, this guy is better right?

Thank you for that insightful comment. Clearly this game deserves healers like you. I'll be playing progression raiding in something where my value is not insulted by how well I don't heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toystore

So I guess that means you'll take a healer for Twintania that dpses in AK but can't heal progression for crap versus a healer that doesn't DPS in AK and is really good at doing their job where it counts.

---

You made absolutely no sense.

Eh it's a little harder on WHMs...but when I stick foe req. up on BRD, I expect you to DPS. You're sitting at full MP anyways.

As a SCH, if you don't DPS, why not just go WHM? 95% of the ones I've come across are just pure garbage (this thread has quite a few good examples).

Cleric > swiftcast shadowflare > multidot > bane takes care of everything and adds insane mitigation due to the slowing component of shadowflare.

Want to see something interesting? Go watch our Twin kill. Guess what our healer does several times throughout the fight? DPSs. Do you see something interesting at the end? Maybe the 2nd aetheric profusion that's about to go off? Now what would have happened if the SCH hadn't done some DPS when it was that close? I don't think the tank died at all so clearly he's able to do healing and DPSing at the same time.

But if you wish to be mediocre, that's fine.

The only sense you made is you believe DPS in dungeons doesn't matter (which is false), and this somehow correlates to one's performance in Coil (which is false).

The funny part is you can also DPS in Coil, particularly in T4 when a WHM can use Holy for Spider kills, and a SCH can cast DoTs on the Phase 2 Clockwork Soldiers then Bane spread it. My static does it all the time and we never wipe because of it.

In other words, you don't make any sense because you're outright wrong. And you should stop being ignorant to anyone but your own playstyle.

Go back and read it again. One of the points was that there was no correlation between DPSing in dungeons and healing in progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toystore

Thank you for that insightful comment. Clearly this game deserves healers like you. I'll be playing progression raiding in something where my value is not insulted by how well I don't heal.

---

Healing doesn't take practice, you practice with the dungeon environnment

Knowing to heal in AK won't make you a better healer in Turn 5

Knowing turn 5 pattern will make you a better healer in turn 5

Similarly knowing to DPS in AK won't make you a better healer in Turn 5.
Knowing turn 5 pattern will make you a better healer in turn 5, and a better healer period, regardless of what you choose to do in AK.

I don't get why this argument is still going on.

A healer who DPS' during an instance =/= do not know or understand their role
A healer who doesn't DPS during an instance =/= they are a bad healer, they are a perfectly capable healer who doesn't go up and beyond their role in an instance

In the same token:

A healer who DPS in an instance can be a HORRENDOUS healer because they have tunnel vision about their DPS and forget to, you know, heal. These are incredibly bad healer, but you cannot generalize all healers that DPS in an instance in this category. That's factually false. Some of us know how to balance the two properly and play both effectively.

A healer who doesn't DPS in an instance isn't a horrendous healer either. They are doing the role given to them and doing it effectively and efficiently. Can they give added value to the party by DPSing? Sure, of course, but this is their designated role in a standard DF setup and should be their first priority. Anything BEYOND that is supposed to be beyond their scope.

The key thing about a healer is to have the situational awareness and adaptability to determine what is the best course of action for them. Make decisions based on the composition you get, whether it be a static, shout PUG, or DF PUG, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toystore

Go back and read it again. One of the points was that there was no correlation between DPSing in dungeons and healing in progression.

---

Which is why your point makes no sense, because no one has been stating otherwise. You're the only poster here who brought up Twintania, or Coil in general.

EDIT: So what are you actually trying to say? That what a healer does in AK/WP doesn't matter because it's trivial content?

People have made the point that a good healer is one who DPSes in dungeons. That is assumed to be stating otherwise by virtue of the metric chosen to judge what a good healer is. It requires there to be a correlation to DPSing in dungeons and true skill in healing progression content, because no one in their right mind is going to argue the latter is not a more important metric by which to judge a good healer. If they are discrete metrics, which is the final possibility I addressed in the first post on this argument, then one being trivial and one not being trivial means the progression metric will always hold more weight than what you decide to do in AK.

And finally, to address the possibility of them being analog states, I differentiated between the skill levels of someone who is typically in the .01% of progression content versus someone who is in the top 10% to prove that skill metric is on a gradient. The cream of the crop on a non trivial metric will always be more valuable than the cream of the crop on a trivial metric, assuming they are not objective based or analog metrics.

Need more cliffnotes? For being the arbiters of what healing skill is (or rather what healing skill is NOT, like DPS), I just assumed my audience was versed enough in this stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toystore

A good dps healer in AK/WP is not better than a good non-dps healer in Coil.

---

Paraphrased for those who did not understand that useless dribble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toystore

Similarly knowing to DPS in AK won't make you a better healer in Turn 5.
Knowing turn 5 pattern will make you a better healer in turn 5, and a better healer period, regardless of what you choose to do in AK.

---

Actually, it will. Though of course in combination with actually knowing the pattern.

Think about it. When does a (good) healer DPS in trivial content? When they know there's a period where the tank won't get instantly slaughtered by mobs. That takes a degree of situational awareness. It's about "what can I get away with DPSing for 2-3 GCDs?" Replace DPSing with doing literally anything else. Stoneskin, Esuna/Leeches, curing up a non-tank.

This is absolutely a skill that is used in other areas. This fallacy that DPSing is the only thing you're doing when the tank doesn't need a heal is hilarious. That's just one thing you can do. Recognizing the times you don't have to wait for the pistol to start sprinting DOES make you a better healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Actually, it will. Though of course in combination with actually knowing the pattern.

Think about it. When does a (good) healer DPS in trivial content? When they know there's a period where the tank won't get instantly slaughtered by mobs. That takes a degree of situational awareness. It's about "what can I get away with DPSing for 2-3 GCDs?" Replace DPSing with doing literally anything else. Stoneskin, Esuna/Leeches, curing up a non-tank.

This is absolutely a skill that is used in other areas. This fallacy that DPSing is the only thing you're doing when the tank doesn't need a heal is hilarious. That's just one thing you can do. Recognizing the times you don't have to wait for the pistol to start sprinting DOES make you a better healer.

---

Too bad this skill is useless in coil where you will be spam healing tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Too bad this skill is useless in coil where you will be spam healing tank.

---

Wut?

I dps like 70% of them time on turn 1-2-4 on SCH


Turn 5 could send some random DPS between Death Senteces

And i also makle the WHM DPS in turn 2-4

find a better excuse

I heal quite often in Coil but spam healing? Hardly.

Yes we're on Turn 5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Too bad this skill is useless in coil where you will be spam healing tank.

---

Only time I spam healed a tank is during T1 Boss @ 3 stacks and when T2 ADS starts going batshit.

Does your dps not miss most of the time? I only hit conflags consistently.

LoL at these elitist dps whms.

We build limit during phase 1 and 2 where everyone takes damage purposely so i need to heal them . The only time i dps is during conflags,snakes and end phase. My dps is completely unneeded though.

Making sure tank is 100% before death sentence and i time my cure 2 properly is more important.

For SCH, Bio and Bio II never miss. Aero/II, Miasma, Thunder, Stone/II, Ruin/II etc anything with an initial "hit" to it can miss so WHM is a little worse off in that regard. That said in the occasional times I try for Miasma I wouldn't say I miss that often.

I rage a bit whenever I miss Energy Drain, but all that's done is taught me to save those charges for Lustrate instead.

Well i hate how cleric stance is unresponsive and i occasionally double tap it and i am unable to remove it. I would dps all the time if it was more responsive. Feels very clunky atm.

So all whm spells have a high chance to miss in coil but sch bio and bio 2 will always hit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Well i hate how cleric stance is unresponsive and i occasionally double tap it and i am unable to remove it. I would dps all the time if it was more responsive. Feels very clunky atm.

---

Thats why Lustrate can come handy :)

And please stop with the word Elitist, all we wanna do is make things faster so we waste less time (and bring a little more fun in healer)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Making sure tank is 100% before death sentence and i time my cure 2 properly is more important.

---

Haven't seen anyone say that wasn't the case.

Well with unresponsive cleric stance i never feel safe. So i don't use during points i need to heal damage. Which is the phases i mentioned. In phases where healing isnt needed i may dps if my mana isnt low(which if i have to res it might be). Seems like quite a waste to spend xx mana on a spell that will miss very often in coil. There is no reason to not use the fluid aura on cooldown except the fact its range is poor.

During the times we beat TT i didnt DPS (i had to use mana to res though)

For trivial content(everything expect coil) i dps because my healing isnt needed at all. So either i dps or i watch videos and heal with macros.

I have noticed that Sch does very high dps in dps meters(i often beat the dps) but whm dps is terrible even if im going all out and using holy. Demon wall i kill as sch before adds but as whm he often survives.

So i get no enjoyment what so ever dpsing due to how clunky cleric stance activation is when i am using it in coil. But i do enjoy dpsing during trivial content. Because i can relax then and it is healable while afk.

I think you have two typed of healers. The ones who like and want to DPS, and the ones who don't want to and/or are uncomfortable with it. When I was undergeared, I preferred to focus my time on healing and only healing. Not that I have Relic +1, a few Allagan, some AF2 (AF+1, whatever you wanna call it)...I mix up healing and DPS a bit more. but a LOT of my decision to heal only or DPS comes from what type of tank we have for the run, who the tank is, how is the tank geared, how experienced are they, and do they have a particular preference on a healer DPSing. Keep in mind, i never do runs of ANYTHING with pickups. Not because I am elitist...but because I have an amazing FC and LS and someone is always running something. So why Duty finder when I can go with people I know/trust? But heals only or DPSing is all entirely situational.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

snip.

---

Turn 1 if you time your SS and EFE + rouse you can easy do Bio + bio II + Miasma + Thunder on snake even when split

Turn 2 I am on cleric stance from first node till ADS (WHM solo heal) and I can pop cleric while dodging AOE and all

Turn 4 Pop cleric + Swiftcast Shadow Flare then Miasma II on First phase then WHM Cleric Holy while i heal

I pop cleric and let my fairy heal the OT on the Knight + Soldier, and i do Bio + II + Thunder + Miasma on the MT Soldier then Bane then Shadow Flare, then do the same on the OT mob
I also fully nuke on first dread (Fairy + WHM heal)
Back to Cleric Swift + Shadow + Miama II on Rook phase
I also Cleric on Knight + Soldier from P5 While lustrate the MT
Then I go full time heal for the 2 dread phase

If the made cleric stance work like fairy heals. Usable during animation it would be alot more enjoyable. They need to remove double tap or remove that dumb cooldown where you cannot remove cleric stance.

And they need to make whm spells not miss all the time in coil because spending mana just to have your spell miss is really annoying.

Btw why does holy get so much agro ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

If the made cleric stance work like fairy heals. Usable during animation it would be alot more enjoyable

Or they need to make whm spells not miss all the time in coil because spending mana just to have your spell miss is really annoying.

---

I use HQ Deviled Eggs i have like 420 Acc so i rarely miss

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whippet

Turn 1 if you time your SS and EFE + rouse you can easy do Bio + bio II + Miasma + Thunder on snake even when split

Turn 2 I am on cleric stance from first node till ADS (WHM solo heal) and I can pop cleric while dodging AOE and all

Turn 4 Pop cleric + Swiftcast Shadow Flare then Miasma II on First phase then WHM Cleric Holy while i heal

I pop cleric and let my fairy heal the OT on the Knight + Soldier, and i do Bio + II + Thunder + Miasma on the MT Soldier then Bane then Shadow Flare, then do the same on the OT mob
I also fully nuke on first dread (Fairy + WHM heal)
Back to Cleric Swift + Shadow + Miama II on Rook phase
I also Cleric on Knight + Soldier from P5 While lustrate the MT
Then I go full time heal for the 2 dread phase

---

Your a sch your spell doesn't miss ,you have lustrate and fairy to heal at full potency during cleric stance.

My group clears turn 1-5 without my dps so i dont feel the need to buy deviled eggs to help dps.

If our dps dies during phase 5 this week i will add dps though. The last phast isn't too hard on healing except for when off tank is on the fire pool.

Only bio and Bio II doenst miss

You should complain to SE about cleric stance being annoying instead of pointing the finger at healers who dont dps during coil. Because there would be no excuse not to dps if cleric stance wasnt clunky but i think it being clunky is a good reason to not use it if you want to have a smooth run.

Alot of people who alt healer may find it stressful to dps during trivial content. But career healers will find it easy to dps while healing in trivial content. But there are some who are watching videos and healing with a macro since they hate myth farming.

Cleric is indeed clunky, but after a while I just got a good muscle memory for it. Rarely ever fumble with it anymore unless I for some reason forget whether it's on or off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

You should complain to SE about cleric stance being annoying instead of pointing the finger at healers who dont dps during coil. Because there would be no excuse not to dps if cleric stance wasnt clunky but i think it being clunky is a good reason to not use it if you want to have a smooth run.

Alot of people who alt healer may find it stressful to dps during trivial content. But career healers will find it easy to dps while healing in trivial content. But there are some who are watching videos and healing with a macro since they hate myth farming.

---

Once again without to sound beeing a bitch


The issue here is not who can or who cannot DPS

It's people stuck with the the fast that WHM and SCH are considered healers and cannot use DPS


So once again if a person says he's not used or confortable with it, it's fine

The problem is people saying i'm a WHM so i only heal blah blah and if tanks is full then i'll just watch netflix

I'm not sure if a discussion about healer DPS in Coil is the correct frame of analysis. There are a variety of strategies in Coil, different comps, and so on. For example, my turn 4 group can clear all phases in time without significant healer DPS. I'm there pretty much to alt in if we fall behind for whatever reason. Note that we do not tank two dreadnaughts, rather let the OT take additional mobs.

Same thing goes for T2, considering its a sustainability test I'm more concerned with sustaining and constant forward movement.

Now for AK/WP? That's where you should be taking full advantage of overgear by DPS'ing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psychosamm

TBH I was totally expecting another rant thread. I was pleasantly surprised. :P

---

Haha, ditto.

I think DPS with a healer is acceptable when appropriate, but it's a dangerous art to mess with. Overall, heals > DPS for a healer. Usually.