2.1 Delayed?

So funny to all the haters I told you so.

Honestly I don't like the whole content patch philosophy. It seems the primary reason for them is so you can dangle a carrot in front of your subs and say "See! Look at all this cool content coming! Get yourselves hyped up!"

If you ask me, they should just release features and content as it's ready. But I'm sure there's more to it than that, like ease of patching and stuff.

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Tell me then where all this content is at max level if you would.

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All content after Main storyline ( endgame starts):

1) Wanderer's Palace
2) AK
3) Hard mode Primals ( Garuda/Titan/Ifrit)*
4) Tomestones of Philo/Mythos
5) Relic Reborn Quest ( For all of the DoW and DoM Jobs)
6) Coil

After 2.1

7) Crystal Tower
8) Pharos Sirirus
9) 2 Hard mode Dungeons
10) Beastman Dailies
11) Extreme Mode for Primals ( Garuda/Titan/Ifrit)*


etc etc.

Just because it's not Coil ( the last thing of endgame you can do, doesn't mean it discredits the OTHER endgame content.)

Endgame starts as soon as you finish the Main storyline ( which is all the stuff you can do AFTER the Main story!)

* For the Primals each Primal is it's own End-game content. So to be honest with you the Primals have "6 different" end-game content ( because they all play out differently)

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Originally Posted by Starlord

All content after Main storyline ( endgame starts):

1) Wanderer's Palace
2) AK
3) Hard mode Primals ( Garuda/Titan/Ifrit)
4) Tomestones of Philo/Mythos
5) Relic Reborn Quest ( For all of the DoW and DoM Jobs)
6) Coil

After 2.1

7) Crystal Tower
8) Pharos Sirirus
9) 2 Hard mode Dungeons
10) Beastman Dailies
11) Extreme Mode for Primals ( Garuda/Titan/Ifrit)


etc etc.

Just because it's not Coil ( the last thing of endgame you can do, doesn't mean it discredits the OTHER endgame content.)

Endgame starts as soon as you finish the Main storyline ( which is all the stuff you can do AFTER the Main story!)

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problem is the design of that content. It wasn't designed to last. Good FC's are done with all of it already. They need to design something ala sea/sky so we can have things to do. The problem is the design of our content in FFXIV...its bad.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

List of content

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1/2. Done wp/ak 60+ times each to gear my bard and halfway gear my whm, down to 9min wp runs.
3. There is no reason to do any of them beyond the first time when going after relic or primal weps.
4. I login for 4-5 hours a week for coil and wp/ak and am capped on myth, phil is for nothing but gil that has no use or to gear alt classes in darklight.
5.Done it for bard and about to do it for whm, again there is no reason to do these again past the first time for each class.
6. My group clears 1-4 in 50mins each week and we're making progress on turn 5, a single turn that gives any meaningful amount of time ingame.

As the poster above me said there is no reason to do most of this past the first time. Most of it was not meant to last any significant amount of time when there is no replay value to doing any of it past that first time other than to help guildies or to finish off a relic.

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Originally Posted by Berezo

problem is the design of that content. It wasn't designed to last. Good FC's are done with all of it already.

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Did they happen to get all the weapons from those Primals? I feel that if there's still something to get from the primals, they still have worth to them. Just because you beat it once doesn't mean the content just "goes away". People choose to not play the content.

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

1/2. Done wp/ak 60+ times to gear my bard and halfway gear my whm, down to 9min wp runs.
3. There is no reason to do any of them beyond the first time when going after relic or primal weps.
4. I login for 4-5 hours a week for coil and wp/ak and am capped on myth, phil is for nothing but gil that has no use or to gear alt classes in darklight.
5.Done it for bard and about to do it for whm, again there is no reason to do these again past the first time for each class.
6. My group clears 1-4 in 50mins each week and we're making progress on turn 5, a single turn that gives any meaningful amount of time ingame.

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Like I said before, as long as their is something you haven't got from the primal (or content in general), it's still needs to be beaten.

You make it sound like after 1 fight they just give you the Primal weapon. I know all of the endgame content, I just haven't gotten to it yet ( still level 42 DRG)

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Did they happen to get all the weapons from those Primals? I feel that if there's still something to get from the primals, they still have worth to them. Just because you beat it once doesn't mean the content just "goes away". People choose to not play the content.

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Those weapons are outsourced once you have relic which takes no time to get in this game so it made primal weapons trivial. Again, thats a design flaw. Why does Titan even have weapons when its the last leg of the relic weapon quest? That makes no sense at all. Primal weapons have no point other than sentimental value if people actually care about that or not.

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Originally Posted by Berezo

Those weapons are outsourced once you have relic which takes no time to get in this game so it made primal weapons trivial. Again, thats a design flaw. Why does Titan even have weapons when its the last leg of the relic weapon quest? That makes no sense at all. Primal weapons have no point other than sentimental value if people actually care about that or not.

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Well, whether or not the stuff to them has any use to them or not is not the point. Some people aren't all about the stats. I do wanna look cool while fighting ( personally). If end game gear has the best stats in the game but it looks like crap, why would I bother putting on something that looks hideous? Sure stats are good and are needed to progress through certain content, however, you don't need the best gear in the world to get past a lot of the content.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

The people "who aren't all about stats" doesn't care for content to begin with - You can say "I'm not all about stats" and I guarantee you never make it past Turn 1. I'm not trying to be mean here, but no one can justify the content design of this game in a serious manner. Tell me why would I schedule FC runs for Primals or Sunken Temple or Cutter's? (Never mind that they're 4 man content as well for the dungeons.)

It's one thing to "do something for fun" and another to state this game has a ton of content that you do literally only one time unless you want to just have something to do. I have no reason to get a Primal weapon after I do it for my Relic Quest.

And before you respond with "well that is your opinion" - SE wouldn't have designed the Relic Quest the way they did if they wanted to make Primals viable content because the current ARR design makes primals useless if you're working on a relic weapon. Same with the main storyline - They made the dungeons involved with them useless after you clear it one time unless you want the armor sets which gets outdated by the next dungeon. There's things to do, no one denied that, it's just a lot of what there is to do is highly optional.

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Gear is progressing for something you strive for. Primals/Dungeons are Content. Personally if you play the game for just the gear and not having fun playing the actual content, then at some point, you will hit a point where you got the best there is and now you are telling yourself there is no content based on what you accomplished.

I agree that how they are handling the progression towards gear is a little weird. However, I still feel the gear doesn't make content fun, it's something you strive for in the end result ( hopefully). The content should be the one that gives the average person fun things to do.

Gear is part of the game no denying that but this is how I feel as a whole:

1) If X content requires you to have ilvl 70, then get gear for that content that is ilvl 70 or higher
2) If you can beat the content with the gear you love to wear, then you should wear it.

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Originally Posted by permbanned

Let's be realistic here. You can merge #4 with 1 and 2 and then merge #3 with 5 and you're left with this:

1. WP
2. AK
3. Relics
4. Coil

Actually, what the hell. Why not just merge AK and WP together since they're basically the same exact thing, so really it's

1. WP/AK
2. Relics
3. Coil

Let's go even further now.

1 and 2 you can farm as much as you want for entry level dungeon gear and 8-10 times per week for ilv90 gear (which is retarded that it comes from here, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Anyway, let's move on.

3 is not as much content as you make it out to be. There are 9 relics and each relic takes 3 hours to obtain for a total of 27 hours of content. Once you're done this content means absolutely nothing to you anymore. Primals themselves are pointless to farm because of how easy and quick it is to get relics so I don't even see why you mentioned them.

And that leaves us with number 4, coil. 5 turns, 4 of which have something to kill and all of which can be cleared in an hour if you're good, not to mention you're locked out until the weekly reset once it's cleared.

So in reality you have 27 hours of relics, 1 hour of coil per week and as much WP/AK as you can grind until your eyes bleed.

This is hardly what anyone in their right mind would consider "a lot of content."

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You are only looking at the content in a progression of gear sort of way. ( which if you have that mentality, of course the game will appear as if there's nothing to do).

If you take out gear from the equation you'll still have all the content available for you to have fun with.

I won't deny the fact that getting gear you want from content is an awesome feeling and will want the gear that will make my character look badass. However, I don't judge content based on gear. I judge it by how the content play, is it a fun content to do etc etc. This is my mentality when playing any game, and I have fun doing it.

I hate the FATE content but it gives the best seals at a fast rate, but I do GC leves because they appeal to me more.

Let me ask you, is the actual content itself fun to you?


Also to add this is a MMO launch, if you were honestly expecting more than what they gave, then you really got your hopes up.

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

Silly list snipped

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1/2. That's it?
3. I still do primal DF for fun (read: Holy crap fun in a game) and to help people who are still needing them.
4. If you're only playing for myth that's your fault. I enjoy helping people through content as well as running the 15-47 dungeons (yes they still exist).
5. I have 4 relics and plan to get them all.
6. You're complaining about no content and you haven't even finished Coil.

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They need to design something ala sea/sky so we can have things to do.

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I'm just going to point out that Sky was released in Rise of Zilart expansion. Sea was released in Chains of Promathia expansion.

Yes, when FFXI Came to NA, RoZ was included. Presumably however, NA wanted to get the game at the same time as JP. Yay we have it! not as much content is in the game as when they would release a first expansion. Really, tough Beans.

Also, FFXI was modelled off of EQ (The most successful MMO at the time)
FFXIV: ARR is modelled off of WoW (The most successful MMO at the time)

The type of content is very different. That's a different discussion however, which has been beat to death.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Well, whether or not the stuff to them has any use to them or not is not the point. Some people aren't all about the stats.

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The people "who aren't all about stats" doesn't care for content to begin with - You can say "I'm not all about stats" and I guarantee you never make it past Turn 1. I'm not trying to be mean here, but no one can justify the content design of this game in a serious manner. Tell me why would I schedule FC runs for Primals or Sunken Temple or Cutter's? (Never mind that they're 4 man content as well for the dungeons.)

It's one thing to "do something for fun" and another to state this game has a ton of content that you do literally only one time unless you want to just have something to do. I have no reason to get a Primal weapon after I do it for my Relic Quest.

And before you respond with "well that is your opinion" - SE wouldn't have designed the Relic Quest the way they did if they wanted to make Primals viable content because the current ARR design makes primals useless if you're working on a relic weapon. Same with the main storyline - They made the dungeons involved with them useless after you clear it one time unless you want the armor sets which gets outdated by the next dungeon. There's things to do, no one denied that, it's just a lot of what there is to do is highly optional.

I love these forums. Placing titles like 'White Knight', 'Hater', and 'Troll' on people.
Nothing is ever good enough or out fast enough.
People 'speed running' content to minutes, then complain have nothing to do.
People who have no idea about design or large scale coding, telling SE how to do things.
My personal favorite, people looking for a reason for this game to fail, so they can go "I told you so".

This forum is the internet at its finest.

Fact:
-Hardcore MMO Raiders will consume content faster than it is possible to create.

Lets try this. SE makes a new Raid harder than Coil every 2 weeks.
Hardcore FC Raiders will create grueling raid timetables in order to be the first to clear each one before the next one is released.
Result? members of said FCs will become burned out on the game, or potentially cost these people their personal lives.

You can't make quality content without time.
Time is something MMO's have a lot of. People need to understand that and stop rushing through everything.

Personally, I'd much rather look forward to big updates with a lot of different things for people to do. Incredibly short tiny updates that only add things for the top 5% of players isn't exactly a good idea.
Even if you rotated the content coming out for raiders and normal people, the raiders would cry that the casuals are ruining it for them.

Imagine the stress on the Developer Team to make quality content in such short bursts.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

1) Wanderer's Palace
2) AK
3) Hard mode Primals ( Garuda/Titan/Ifrit)*
4) Tomestones of Philo/Mythos
5) Relic Reborn Quest ( For all of the DoW and DoM Jobs)
6) Coil

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Let's be realistic here. You can merge #4 with 1 and 2 and then merge #3 with 5 and you're left with this:

1. WP
2. AK
3. Relics
4. Coil

Actually, what the hell. Why not just merge AK and WP together since they're basically the same exact thing, so really it's

1. WP/AK
2. Relics
3. Coil

Let's go even further now.

1 you can farm as much as you want for entry level dungeon gear and 8-10 times per week for ilv90 gear (which is retarded that it comes from here, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Anyway, let's move on.

2 is not as much content as you make it out to be. There are 9 relics and each relic takes 3 hours to obtain for a total of 27 hours of content. Once you're done this content means absolutely nothing to you anymore. Primals themselves are pointless to farm because of how easy and quick it is to get relics so I don't even see why you mentioned them.

And that leaves us with number 3, coil. 5 turns, 4 of which have something to kill and all of which can be cleared in an hour if you're good, not to mention you're locked out until the weekly reset once it's cleared.

So in reality you have 27 hours of relics, 1 hour of coil per week and as much WP/AK as you can grind until your eyes bleed.

This is hardly what anyone in their right mind would consider "a lot of content."

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Originally Posted by permbanned

This is hardly what anyone in their right mind would consider "a lot of content."

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The reality is, that it isn't that much content...It's actually very very little content.

I realize this is a new game and a "fresh launch" but, the reality is that after you finish 1/2 classes, you've run AK/WP over 100 times...AK got boring after the 10th time...And WP got old after the 2nd run...So, what's left? Get your relic...FC's can Relic you within 2 hours...Okay, now what's left? Grind AK/WP to finish. Okay, now what's left? Coil. After 3 weeks of coil, you get it down to 1 night.

Okay, now what's left? Nothing because farming Myth just became trivial and coil only takes 1 night.

There's genuinely not enough content right now to keep me playing...And the lag...Oh, the lag...How I love thee.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

Every single thread I've read you come in and say something about zooming the camera out.. Congratulations on being annoying.

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Zoom out further it will become less annoying :)

Ok ok, I'll stop :P

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Originally Posted by permbanned

Why not just merge AK and WP together since they're basically the same exact thing, so really it's

1. WP/AK
2. Relics
3. Coil

This is hardly what anyone in their right mind would consider "a lot of content."

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Thanks you, I was beginning to think people actually believed that list of 5. Doing a relic quests basically means you are doing 1 and 2 . since it just takes you through instance and primal fights. saying Tomes is a form of content is like saying Gil is endgame content. It is currency, not content. I don't care what anyone thinks, 2 instances is not enough. Coil is definatley not hard enough to last a whole nother patch. Twintania may be, but twintania is not all of binding coil. Crystal tower better be longer to make up for the difficulty downgrade, i hope it is still hard. PvP better have more than a circular room of nothing but killing.

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Originally Posted by permbanned

So in reality you have 27 hours of relics, 1 hour of coil per week and as much WP/AK as you can grind until your eyes bleed.

This is hardly what anyone in their right mind would consider "a lot of content."

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Thats 4 hours a day, 7 days a week worth of play.
Regular people don't get to play much more than a few hours a day, and sometimes not even consecutively.
Game shouldn't revolve around the top tier raiders, but neither should it revolve around the regular players. A healthy balance needs to be struck.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Thats 4 hours a day, 7 days a week worth of play.
Regular people don't get to play much more than a few hours a day, and sometimes not even consecutively.
Game shouldn't revolve around the top tier raiders, but neither should it revolve around the regular players. A healthy balance needs to be struck.

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While i agree with permabanned. I also agree with this statement so much. The problem is its hard to tell people or explain this to them. So many people want to do every little thing to rush Twintania down, you would think they realize the second they do that is the second they all quit... but no....

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Originally Posted by SakuraInoue

Zoom out further it will become less annoying :)

Ok ok, I'll stop :P

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My mouse wheel is stuck!! waaahhhh

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Originally Posted by Phe

PvP, housing, Crystal Tower used to have a release date:
August 27th.

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hmm, no?

It was mentioned before beta4 that housing and pvp were only in beta4 to test the map/mechanic. It was never planned that the two come with launch.

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Originally Posted by Felis

hmm, no?

It was mentioned before beta4 that housing and pvp were only in beta4 to test the map/mechanic. It was never planned that the two come with launch.

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Now don't be fussy.

In the last live letter they hinted at a December release, old news.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

I'm just going to point out that Sky was released in Rise of Zilart expansion. Sea was released in Chains of Promathia expansion.

Yes, when FFXI Came to NA, RoZ was included. Presumably however, NA wanted to get the game at the same time as JP. Yay we have it! not as much content is in the game as when they would release a first expansion. Really, tough Beans.

Also, FFXI was modelled off of EQ (The most successful MMO at the time)
FFXIV: ARR is modelled off of WoW (The most successful MMO at the time)

The type of content is very different. That's a different discussion however, which has been beat to death.

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Apparently it needs to be beaten more because releasing a new raid every 2 patches won't bring success. We have played mmo's that have followed that path for 10 years now. Enough is enough, we need something different. XIV will not thrive if it just copies the WoW patch model.

There is a very large side effect to delaying 2.1

If it was released at lunch or shortly after than things like crystal tower with ilvl 80 gear and dungeon hard modes would make sense. They would close the gap between easy content and coil. However by December average person will have 3 months worth of mythology tomes, relic +1 and probably at least something from coil. What would be the point of new content in 2.1? It will be obsolete at that time.

I will take delayed over unfinished.

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Originally Posted by McLeech

There is a very large side effect to delaying 2.1

If it was released at lunch or shortly after than things like crystal tower with ilvl 80 gear and dungeon hard modes would make sense. They would close the gap between easy content and coil. However by December average person will have 3 months worth of mythology tomes, relic +1 and probably at least something from coil. What would be the point of new content in 2.1? It will be obsolete at that time.

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you have ilvl 80 gear on all your slots on all your war/magic classes? wow! I'm leveling my third class to 50 and will get it it's relic too. I plan on getting some gear in coils and some in crystal.

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Originally Posted by McLeech

There is a very large side effect to delaying 2.1

If it was released at lunch or shortly after than things like crystal tower with ilvl 80 gear and dungeon hard modes would make sense. They would close the gap between easy content and coil. However by December average person will have 3 months worth of mythology tomes, relic +1 and probably at least something from coil. What would be the point of new content in 2.1? It will be obsolete at that time.

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This. Why bother releasing content that is, in essence, obsolete? Aside from taking a look at the new raid - the novelty which will wear off pretty quickly, especially considering that 24-man is much harder to put together for anyone but large raiding FCs - I don't see how it's going to do anyone much good.

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Originally Posted by McLeech

There is a very large side effect to delaying 2.1

If it was released at lunch or shortly after than things like crystal tower with ilvl 80 gear and dungeon hard modes would make sense. They would close the gap between easy content and coil. However by December average person will have 3 months worth of mythology tomes, relic +1 and probably at least something from coil. What would be the point of new content in 2.1? It will be obsolete at that time.

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Point taken, but I think your idea of the "average person" is a bit skewed. Looking at everything, I think there are more people who haven't even reached 50 than those who have.

It's only obsolete if you take it on the very limited perspective on the players that have gotten to Coil progression already, you are leaving out people who are still farming DL, casuals, people that are still leveling to 50, and people who, everyday, are joining the game. Also, it's a nice secondary way to gear your Alt Jobs since Coil will be locked out when you play it with your main.

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Originally Posted by Yagrush

It's only obsolete if you take it on the very limited perspective on the players that have gotten to Coil progression already, you are leaving out people who are still farming DL, casuals, people that are still leveling to 50, and people who, everyday, are joining the game. Also, it's a nice secondary way to gear your Alt Jobs since Coil will be locked out when you play it with your main.

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100% Agreed!

"casuals" i dont care.

"hardcores" i don't care.

Good thing that Yoshi listens to casuals more than hardcores.

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Originally Posted by Dire

considering that 24-man is much harder to put together for anyone but large raiding FCs - I don't see how it's going to do anyone much good.

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Actually, it won't because Crystal Tower can be done via Duty Finder. That fact alone makes it clear it will be easier than Coil, and probably merely harder than Garuda/Titan (don't go telling me Titan is hard, people simply can't dodge/memorize a pattern).

That being said, in 2.1 there will be ilvl restrictions (I think I heard about Crystal Tower needing you to have a relic weapon, too) so yeah, Crystal Tower will seem more suited to gear alt classes than your main, because if the patch only comes out in mid-december, I'll be in full Valor at this rate (I'm leveling other classes instead of doing Coil at the moment).

I'm still going with 2.1 in December.
11/22 - P.Letter X
12/9-12/20 P.Letter XI
12/20-12/27 2.1 release

would still be within this year... lol orz

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

If SE does not have everything done by mid next month they need to break the patches into 2 parts.

Release what is done when the patch was planned, and release what is not done later.

The game has a massive lack of content at endgame atm... this is what kills mmos. More then bugs, lag, and server issues combined. They need to solve it sooner then later. Waiting 2-4 more weeks could cost them a chunk of subs which just give up on this game. An evergrowing segment of the population is out of content in 4-6hrs every week... this CANNOT happen in a mmo.

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Lack of end-game has pretty much killed every new mmo for me in the last 5years. All those mmo's are pretty much dead now or went free to play. I dont understand, is it only casual people how design mmo's these day. Do they think end game isnt as or more importent then adding new hair styles or other fluff? A new hair style isnt going to keep anyone playing for months.....

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

"hardcores" i don't care.

Good thing that Yoshi listens to casuals more than hardcores.

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To bad hardcore people are what hypes a game and keeps it alive. Casuals kill games when they are listened to. Every new mmo after wow has been killed cuz dev's/game designers think its better to listen to casuals and make new hair styles then to listen to normal/hardcore gamers who tell them end game is were the money is /nuff said

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

Actually, it won't because Crystal Tower can be done via Duty Finder. That fact alone makes it clear it will be easier than Coil, and probably merely harder than Garuda/Titan (don't go telling me Titan is hard, people simply can't dodge/memorize a pattern).

That being said, in 2.1 there will be ilvl restrictions (I think I heard about Crystal Tower needing you to have a relic weapon, too) so yeah, Crystal Tower will seem more suited to gear alt classes than your main, because if the patch only comes out in mid-december, I'll be in full Valor at this rate (I'm leveling other classes instead of doing Coil at the moment).

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To me that is the appeal of CT, a practical way to gear alt-classes that I enjoy playing, but which getting myth/allagan gear for isn't overly practical at this point.

I love how everyone says there is nothing to do with gil as if they have too much, or there is not enough gil in game aka economy crash.

I also like how people do not understand that gil is for convenience. Someone else has gone through the effort of creating/farming to craft gear. Spend your gil on this to gear a second class/job. Or you could buy the HQ mats and use them for crafting turn ins. Or you can buy mats and level you crafting off them. There is a ton of things to spend gil on that isn't frivolous.

TLDR: If you don't see use in gil, you're doing it wrong. and dumb.

Those saying that CT is "easy" by definition just because its an option in DF. I'd like to remind you the nightmare of DFing Titan HM. Yeah.