Will 2.1 offer any lasting content to players who are on or cleared turn 5?

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

the problem may also be will the extreme modes be worth doing? I mean if they make extreme mode a part of lets say +2 Relic weapon req, great a reason to do it. If not whats the point?

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Fun? What are games for? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Umo

Fun? What are games for? :confused:

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I don't think you studied game design (like, ever) but you see, games are fun primarily because they provide a sense of accomplishment for your efforts.
A process where you kill time and get nothing in return works for small kids that have nothing to do with their time. Paying MMO customers, and especially the ones playing theme-park MMOs like this one tend to want something in return for time and money they spend.
Shiny stuff, epic loot, the proverbial carrot on a stick.
Otherwise the "fun" factor evaporates faster than a water drop on a red-hot frying pan.

Some people have to understand:

Not every game is fully enjoyable for every person.

Some people like some games, some people don't. If you do not like how this is, it may simply be a situation where the game is not really suited for your tastes... that's not bad, it just simply how things are.


If what is here in this world is not enough to keep you entertained, then perhaps other entertainment is more suitable for you. -- This is not meant to sound mean, it just simply is the reality.

I don't know ...

But I think that Ramuh and Leviathan need to make an entrance soon. Wonder if it will give more summoners option to choose from .

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

I don't think you studied game design (like, ever) but you see, games are fun primarily because they provide a sense of accomplishment for your efforts.
A process where you kill time and get nothing in return works for small kids that have nothing to do with their time. Paying MMO customers, and especially the ones playing theme-park MMOs like this one tend to want something in return for time and money they spend.
Shiny stuff, epic loot, the proverbial carrot on a stick.
Otherwise the "fun" factor evaporates faster than a water drop on a red-hot frying pan.

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Thats why wow lasted untill now. They simply knew the "magic forumla". Contents, contents contentes and contents. Keep the people busy, they will pay you

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

I don't think you studied game design (like, ever) but you see, games are fun primarily because they provide a sense of accomplishment for your efforts.
A process where you kill time and get nothing in return works for small kids that have nothing to do with their time. Paying MMO customers, and especially the ones playing theme-park MMOs like this one tend to want something in return for time and money they spend.
Shiny stuff, epic loot, the proverbial carrot on a stick.
Otherwise the "fun" factor evaporates faster than a water drop on a red-hot frying pan.

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Right. Fighting dragons is serious business.
Fighting challenging content for loot only is mature because appreciating challenging content in its own right is for kids.
Wanting shiny loot, that's for adults.

You, sir, are hilarious. There's nothing wrong with playing the game with rewards in mind.
But please, don't pretend the "carrot on a stick" isn't a reference to motivation for animals who don't realize they'll never be sated.
Playing for shiny loot mentality could be likened to training an animal that's even below a child's intelligence.

You're calling that guy a child? If we're to generalize, you're not even on that level.

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But please, don't pretend the "carrot on a stick" isn't a reference to motivation for animals who don't realize they'll never be sated.

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If you think there's something else for theme-park MMO players, you're in for a rude awakening.
Perhaps sandbox-type games offer a different kind of fun, since there are usually "politics", long-lasting player-caused effects on the world, clashes of interests (resolved via PvP) and so on involved. Theme parks? Nope.

You're either sniffing flowers and pretending all is right with the world (typical SE White Knight/fanboy behavior, I might add) or you're struggling with content that offers gear you'll need to tackle more content, and the cycle repeats. If a game is good, the process of gear acquisition (be it dungeon grind for loot or arena/battleground grind for PvP rewards) is fun. If the game is bad - it goes down, simple as that. Welcome to the MMOs, my "mature" friend.

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Originally Posted by Altanas

I think patch 2.1 is less about far reaching endgame and more about bringing lower/mid levels and PS3 players up to speed and on an equal footing, and broadening entry level endgame with dungeons and primals (2 hard dungeons, 1 new, extreme primals, Mog and possibly 1 more primal<?>). SE is probably more concerned to deal with adverse community behaviours at the moment which is really turning off casual players (no one running dungeons or disbanding from dungeons or elitism in party recruiting). That said, I think people underestimate how much time PvP and Housing will eat up.

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Bringing PS3 players up to speed? Didn't know it was stand-up comedy night.

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

If you think there's something else for theme-park MMO players, you're in for a rude awakening.
Perhaps sandbox-type games offer a different kind of fun, since there are usually "politics", long-lasting player-caused effects on the world, clashes of interests (resolved via PvP) and so on involved. Theme parks? Nope.

You're either sniffing flowers and pretending all is right with the world (typical SE White Knight/fanboy behavior, I might add) or you're struggling with content that offers gear you'll need to tackle more content, and the cycle repeats. If a game is good, the process of gear acquisition (be it dungeon grind for loot or arena/battleground grind for PvP rewards) is fun. If the game is bad - it goes down, simple as that. Welcome to the MMOs, my "mature" friend.

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That doesn't change the contradictory nature of your argument.
I know all about theme park MMO's since I've been playing them for almost a decade now. I also said there's nothing wrong with playing with loot in mind.
That still doesn't change the fact that it's appealing to a very basic instinct (I can't even say human instinct because it's EVEN more basic).


It's fine that it appeals in that way, but don't tout some kind of superiority complex over here just because that's why you play.
Play and imagination are actually signs of heightened intelligence. Humans exhibit the highest sense of imagination.
Reward based actions is the most basic of sign of intelligence.

I'm honestly not even talking about what's good or bad for the game.
Your attitude is ironic because you're looking down on some guy as childish because he doesn't need shiny things to be satisfied.
Right, like that's childish.

Fact of the matter is that those virtual items are only given as much value as *you* give them.
I think getting loot after a challenging fight is a fine design. Don't pretend, though, that you're really getting anything in return for your money's worth. You might as well be paying for monopoly money.

If that guy's enjoying the content, he's getting his money's worth.
If you don't enjoy the fights, that's fine and you're welcome to that opinion.
If you want more loot options or accessibility, that's fine too. You are welcome to enjoy that aspect of the game.

But acting like your hard earned money should be siphoned into virtual clothes and that's an adult attitude?
And it's childish to appreciate the fights for their own sake?
That's a bit much.
Get over yourself. It's both just things in your head.
You can't tell people what they find fun anymore than they can tell you.

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Originally Posted by Otoha

This game was made for casuals, so if you're running out of content/burned through coil already, its your own fault.

Only people without a social life are gonna run out of content; SE doesn't take into consideration, some of you eat, sleep, and breathe this shit.

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Apparently raiding 6 hours a week (when we were working on Twintania, now it's more like 1-2 hours) means you don't have a social life. I can guarantee that if there's some kind of /played command that my playtime is probably lower than your average player simply because I log out for the week once I clear Coil + cap my weekly Myths.

Classic case of "hurr durr he cleared everything before ME, so he must have no life".

Real life called, it's called moderation. Just saying I used to think it mattered, being server first, world first, etc...but quite frankly nobody cares. You get some free press for a bit, but at the end of the day much like the world we live in, life goes on and you will be forgotten. So why not moderate yourself to enjoy the small victories and all that stuff.

I dunno, I am grumpy, I want more to do at 50 for solo play so that while you're waiting for friends to log on you're not bored out of your tree.

I don't have time to read through all posts here, so sorry if this has been answered already...

What about the 3 dungeons that will be added ? Are all three going to be between AK and Coil ?

And the three extreme modes of the primals can't all be before Coil in progression, right ? What item levels would that be...

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

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He's actually somewhat accurate in his views. The carrot on a stick aspect is basically the center point behind theme-park MMOs. The difference you fail the realize is that in a healthy relationship between the player and the designer of the game is that the player knows and accepts this. They're paying their money based on the premise that the designer can continue offering content to them that is meaningful in some way to that particular person and they derive enjoyment from that meaningful play. This is process in MMOs has almost always been in the forum of content that allows their character to have some form of progression, usually in the form of some type of upgrade that the player can visually see(levels, loot, etc) that then allow them to tackle further challenges. And the process continues until the designer can no longer provide enjoyment for that particular person.

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Originally Posted by Otoha

This game was made for casuals, so if you're running out of content/burned through coil already, its your own fault.

Only people without a social life are gonna run out of content; SE doesn't take into consideration, some of you eat, sleep, and breathe this shit.

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Most content in game is one time only unless you want the armor..but I caught your sarcasm, no one would post that seriously.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I don't have time to read through all posts here, so sorry if this has been answered already...

What about the 3 dungeons that will be added ? Are all three going to be between AK and Coil ?

And the three extreme modes of the primals can't all be before Coil in progression, right ? What item levels would that be...

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You mean the "hardmode" dungeons? Think of these as heroic daily dungeons in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Risae

You mean the "hardmode" dungeons? Think of these as heroic daily dungeons in WoW.

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Have they said this, or are you just guessing ? and what about the totally new one ?

I haven't found anything about where these fit into the progression of the game.

Personally, I feel the learning curve from Turn 4 to Turn 5 is a major jump. Even after the update. Twintania has so many different move sets compared to Turn 4. It's almost overwhelming. I believe (as do others) that Turn 5 was specifically put into place to keep you at bay. It's great that some players have beat it, but I don't think they were suppose to... Yet.

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Originally Posted by Rubieus

It's great that some players have beat it, but I don't think they were suppose to... Yet.

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Saying that about twintania is like saying you think it would have been fine if they made it a gate boss where until they deemed it worthy of being killed they should have had a mechanic that prevents it from happening until then. What else could they have done other than that to prevent kills? You get the highest ilvl gear from coil and myth, if people in full lvl 90 gear couldn't get it down there's a problem, CT would not fix the issue either when it is confirmed to be ilvl 80 and easier than coil.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

People complaining about running out of content is like buying a box of chocolates and complaining to cadbury after you ate them all in one sitting.

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Worst analogy I have ever seen and not even remotely comparable.

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

CT would not fix the issue either when it is confirmed to be ilvl 80 and easier than coil.

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Actually that is exactly what I am saying. The only way to beat it was to get full gear. Look at BG, I don't think anyone was sporting less than. I did see one person in Vanya but I can only assume they were healer and had full materia. I could be wrong. If Twintania is an example of end game content, what comes after? Full I90+ good connection + Lucky RNG? They beat it before the update. That takes skill and luck. As I said, I don't think it was meant to be beaten just yet. Due to no other content afterwards. But someone did and that was cool.

I think that Treasure Hunting, Crystal Tower, that new "hard content" only for lvl 50 + extreme primals + hardmode dungeons + housing and also the fact that I want to be the first dragoon with full pvp armor gonna eat like, too much of my time.

2.1 ? fuck yeah, bring it on. You guys goin hardcore in Coils with progression and stuff are the minority, you just don't know it yet.

I lol at all you who say you only log in 1-2 hours to finish coil, then are done for the week.

You know why that is?

It's because you burned through the main story in a race to get to endgame with your 1 newly obtained ARR lvl 50. Now you cry that the only thing you care about (endgame) isn't enough.

People who log in once a week to do coil and cap don't enjoy the game; they have a psychosis.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

People who log in once a week to do coil and cap don't enjoy the game; they have a psychosis.

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i enjoy it very much, but i also enjoy the feeling of having a fresh new raid that challenges me and my guild. instead i get a dungeon where i can gear alts. OH WAIT i can gear alts in bahamuts coil :^). so why do i need crystal tower again?
oh right, to do coil! but wait! i can do coil turns in AK greens and darklight already! wouldnt that make crystal tower kinda pointless?

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Originally Posted by Leadros

i enjoy it very much, but i also enjoy the feeling of having a fresh new raid that challenges me and my guild. instead i get a dungeon where i can gear alts. OH WAIT i can gear alts in bahamuts coil :^). so why do i need crystal tower again?
oh right, to do coil! but wait! i can do coil turns in AK greens and darklight already! wouldnt that make crystal tower kinda pointless?

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Logic does not prevail on this forum. Just stop, it works out better.

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Originally Posted by Leadros

i enjoy it very much, but i also enjoy the feeling of having a fresh new raid that challenges me and my guild. instead i get a dungeon where i can gear alts. OH WAIT i can gear alts in bahamuts coil :^). so why do i need crystal tower again?
oh right, to do coil! but wait! i can do coil turns in AK greens and darklight already! wouldnt that make crystal tower kinda pointless?

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Clear example of someone who raced to endgame with 1 lvl 50, didn't sleep or eat till they cleared it, now crying about not having endgame.

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Originally Posted by Otoha

Clear example of someone who raced to endgame with 1 lvl 50, didn't sleep or eat till they cleared it, now crying about not having endgame.

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im having endgame right now, in form of coil. but this wont last 3 months. if the next patch is even on time.
and sorry, i have a dragoon, 2 50s crafter and 1 50 gatherer all done inbetween.

and you really judge me because YOU dont like my playstyle? im not giving 2 shits about you not being able to play as much as i can. but ignoring the other half of the playerbase who alreayd is doing coil is fucking stupid

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Originally Posted by Leadros

im having endgame right now, in form of coil. but this wont last 3 months. if the next patch is even on time.
and sorry, i have a dragoon, 2 50s crafter and 1 50 gatherer all done inbetween.

and you really judge me because YOU dont like my playstyle? im not giving 2 shits about you not being able to play as much as i can. but ignoring the other half of the playerbase who alreayd is doing coil is fucking stupid

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http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/13...12_you_mad.jpg

You don't need Crystal Tower. CT is meant for future players to progress through on their way to coil. It is not meant for progression of the top 10% of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/13...12_you_mad.jpg

You don't need Crystal Tower. CT is meant for future players to progress through on their way to coil. It is not meant for progression of the top 10% of the playerbase.

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despite having to relay on a age old meme, whats meant for people who are at turn 5 or have cleared turn 5? whats in there in 2.1?

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Originally Posted by Leadros

despite having to relay on a age old meme, whats meant for people who are at turn 5 or have cleared turn 5? whats in there in 2.1?

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PvP, extreme primals, new dungeon, hard mode dungeons, treasure hunts. 2.2 will expand Coil, 2.3 will expand CT. So keep on keepin on.

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Originally Posted by Leadros

i enjoy it very much, but i also enjoy the feeling of having a fresh new raid that challenges me and my guild. instead i get a dungeon where i can gear alts. OH WAIT i can gear alts in bahamuts coil :^). so why do i need crystal tower again?
oh right, to do coil! but wait! i can do coil turns in AK greens and darklight already! wouldnt that make crystal tower kinda pointless?

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I'm sorry you feel that way. I think you have a valid playstyle but I, personally, just can't agee with it if that's how you think.
I love challenging content as well and I do think it's unfortunate they couldn't have crystal tower on release like they planned to.
Then it would be a stepping stone to coil like it was meant to be. That was their intention. This is just how it is now.

I just really don't see it being pointless though.
Crystal Tower is still new content. It might be lower tier but it's not that much lower. That's still something to do.
We don't know if it will be so faceroll-able that there's no reason to step in it, so assuming that is pointless.
Gear is out of the picture for your main class, that's true but is that the only reason you do things.
Obviously, it's ideal to do content and get rewarded but taking one part out of that doesn't negate the other as well.

Also, for me, I play both my MNK and BLM in coil. But my MNK is my main, so my BLM never gets any myth upgrades.
I can do turn 4 as BLM with just darklight and relic(no +1), however now I can get upgrades for my BLM from Crystal Tower as well as any coil drops that others don't need.
So my alt BLM can still benefit from Crystal Tower and get better without any slowing of my MNK's gear.

So on both points, I can't really agree it's pointless.
But maybe it's because even though I think gear is fun to get, I enjoy this game for more than just that.
I'd be hard-pressed to believe Crystal Tower will be so trivial that it won't be interesting to experience all the fights in there.
But then again, I still do the primals a good bit just for the sake of it. So maybe I'm easily impressible.

SE could throw every MMO in the world at someone and you could easily ask "But what will I do when I am done with that?"

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Originally Posted by Sinth

PvP, extreme primals, new dungeon, hard mode dungeons, treasure hunts. 2.2 will expand Coil, 2.3 will expand CT. So keep on keepin on.

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pvp, okay, extreme primals maybe. new dungeon gets outgeared by 90s gear, so do hardmodes, treasure hunts are only for tomes.

so it boils down that the real content that i can do is 3 months full of pvp. and not one raid for me to do that i dont outgear. thats my problem with this patch.

why talk about 2.2 when i want to know whats in there for me in 2.1?

Leadros: Maybe there is nothing for you in 2.1. If you finish everything, what do you expect to do? I don't feel SE has to give you a new harder tougher dungeon every patch.

Perhaps you could walk around town gathering money for those who have lost homes, families and friends in the Phillipines.

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Originally Posted by Leadros

pvp, okay, extreme primals maybe. new dungeon gets outgeared by 90s gear, so do hardmodes, treasure hunts are only for tomes.

so it boils down that the real content that i can do is 3 months full of pvp. and not one raid for me to do that i dont outgear. thats my problem with this patch.

why talk about 2.2 when i want to know whats in there for me in 2.1?

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So 90% of what you said is speculation... Who is to say the new dungeon wont be dropping ilvl90? Who is to say extreme primals wont do the same? Yoshi said treasure hunts would yield tomestones, but he did not say that would be all they would yield (and I highly doubt that is all they will).

Even if you are right and there is nothing for you except for PvP, just accept the fact that you are in the top 5-10% of players and that you won't be catered to until others catch up. That is the price you pay for leading the pack in MMOs. Its nothing new, get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Loony_BoB

Leadros: Maybe there is nothing for you in 2.1. If you finish everything, what do you expect to do? I don't feel SE has to give you a new harder tougher dungeon every patch.

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so why do they have to do it for "casuals" or ppl who play the game slower? they can have their fun in coil, its still fresh for them. and after that, they can progress in crystal tower just like ppl who finished coil no, would do. wouldnt that make way more sense?

at this rate, ppl who cleared coil jumped over one progression point

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Originally Posted by Leadros

im having endgame right now, in form of coil. but this wont last 3 months. if the next patch is even on time.
and sorry, i have a dragoon, 2 50s crafter and 1 50 gatherer all done inbetween.

and you really judge me because YOU dont like my playstyle? im not giving 2 shits about you not being able to play as much as i can. but ignoring the other half of the playerbase who alreayd is doing coil is fucking stupid

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First of all, coil will last 3 months and longer if it needs to, whether you or others like you wanna whine.

Second, I don't give any shit about your playstyle; pointing it out was simply showing the reason you're nearly done with coil.

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Originally Posted by Leadros

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at this rate, ppl who cleared coil jumped over one progression point

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That's exactly what the situation is. Anyone who's completely cleared Coil used the game's means of covering the gap, where CT will go, to skip the 'practical' purpose of CT.

Personally, I'm just glad I prefer to enjoy dungeons for the actual experience of the dungeon locations, monsters, etc, and not just for the gear they offer. Otherwise, yeah, I'd be pretty ticked about 2.1's amount of content too if I looked at dungeons and raids like they were stores in a shopping mall. It probably also helps that I intentionally stopped gearing my main class/job after I got full darklight and relic with the intention of waiting until 2.1 comes out and started leveling Pld and Drg while I wait. :3

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Originally Posted by Otoha

First of all, coil will last 3 months and longer if it needs to, whether you or others like you wanna whine.

Second, I don't give any shit about your playstyle; pointing it out was simply showing the reason you're nearly done with coil.

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The total number of days between Saturday, August 17th, 2013 and Wednesday, November 20th, 2013 is 95 days.
This is equal to exactly 3 months and 3 days.

To this time, add around (just speculating) 15, so near 4 months.
To the result add another 3 months until 2.2 (since they said we would have big patches every 3 months).

So, in theory Coil has lasted 3 months. And will be hardest content in the game for almost 6 months. Seems a little bit much.

To answer the OP question: 2.1 will not have content for Coil raiders or people who have beaten Twintania. Content will be there as gil and time sinks but we won't get any gear progression. While unlikely we might get another set of iLvl90 gear which can be used...at Coil, to get more iLvl90 gear (lol).

I have a feeling that Yoshi wants all of us in iLvl90 by the time 2.2 comes out.

Yoshi said that ppl who cleared coil can enjoy the Wolves Den for 2.1. I'm curious to see how that will work out. I do not think the 4v4 format will be very popular even with new skills. The 8v8 does have potential I think. Objectives should also be added. Granted it is an arena, but gimmicks can be added to make it a whole lot more fun than straight 8v8.