+1 relic weakest upgrade for tanks?

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

Not strictly There are better stat boosts to be had from any other upgrade over Darklight (even from the belt which actually "costs" you 9 parry!) plus the +1 Shield is not BIS and the Allagan version drops from Turn 1. Combine all that with the fact that any shield is largely pointless on Turns 2 and 3, and really the only thing the Shield upgrade has going for it is that it costs exactly one week worth of myth - as soon as you're prepared to save anything beyond one week, it's hands-down the worst upgrade out there... :(

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Shield is only NOT BiS if you ahve access to turn 5 loot. Course, you have to be geared enough to get there before you can start on that BiS build....

Turn 1: Cad wrecks. Its nice.
Turn 2 is not a damage threat, the raid will wipe because non-tank members fumble mechanics, the tanks are in no danger of being killed under normal play, so no upgrade is particularly valuable here.
Turn 3 is... lol wait, are we discussing turn 3?
Turn 4: Shield very potent. You are perhaps over looking that the shield is both an % per block and % to block upgrade. When you are getting hit by two dreads, or 4 adds, this is extremely potent.
Turn 5: Shield is again quite potent. Twin hits for so much that even a few % makes a large difference.

Sure, you can get shield from turn 1. But i'm over two months in and haven't seen it. I wouldn't base purchases on drops you might get. The shield is an extremely potent upgrade. I agree the ring is also, but I wouldn't go past my first 3 upgrades without getting +1 sword/shield and heros ring (unless you get one of those three as a drop). Should you look at my character, you'll find I got the Allagan Ring early on, and thus bypassed heros for now.

Personally, even though I am at the 6.5k point with food, I would not forgo vit for enmity. Twin continues to hit so hard that the hp is valuable. That said, that leaves only the sword (and incidental strenght from left side upgrades) as your means to increasing enmity. By contrast, every slot upgrade on your dps will increase their enmity. You have to keep up with them, particularly in turns 4 and 5 where the fights center around dps checks.

Holy Shield+1 is the single and biggest survivability upgrade you can get for the lowest Myth cost ever. You can't rely on the Allagan Shield to drop, not considering that it is NOT BiS...even if you get Turn 5 loot. It is not BiS period.
Any PLD should ALWAYS go for the Shield+1 first over ANYTHING.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

You can't rely on the Allagan Shield to drop, not considering that it is NOT BiS...even if you get Turn 5 loot. It is not BiS period.

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Between this and the guy who said PLD Myth pants aren't BiS, i'm confused.

PLD BiS changed while I haven't been paying attention?

I don't know where people get their information from, but look at the pieces, do the math and it is obvious in every single slot which is BiS :)

To make it simple

Weapon: Allagan Blade
Shield: Holy Shield +1
Head: Allagan Helm
Body: AF2
Hands: AF2
Legs: AF2
Feet: Heavy Allagan Flanchard
Waist: Allagan Plate Belt
Neck, Earring and Ring: Allagan pieces
Wrist and Ring: Hero pieces

Just compare Holy Shield +1 to Allagan. You gain 7 Acc and lose 7 Skill Speed. While Skill Speed is totally neglectable...it is still better than that 7 Acc, cause you don't neet it and will be capped for Turn 5. People just need to get their information right about Acc skill caps for Turn 5. It is a different cap for every single DPS, caster and Tank class.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Snip

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Looks good to me, really thought the Allagan shield was best in slot though.

Might be a bit of a random question but while we're at it, is Heavy Allagan chest + Hoplite Circlet much better stat wise then the Heavy DL armour?

Got the Allagan chest earlier and figured farming the Hoplite Circlet would be the best option for me till I can afford the Myth helm.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

Looks good to me, really thought the Allagan shield was best in slot though.

Might be a bit of a random question but while we're at it, is Heavy Allagan chest + Hoplite Circlet much better stat wise then the Heavy DL armour?

Got the Allagan chest earlier and figured farming the Hoplite Circlet would be the best option for me till I can afford the Myth helm.

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You will lose some parry and a lot of crit, over 8VIT and around the same amount of STR, but get a lot of Acc. I personally would use the Allagan Body and the Hoplite Head, over the Heavy DL just cause PLDs don't crit that much anyway, and the increase in STR will do more for your sustained dmg over time. And unless your already ACC capped the Acc won't hurt either. And 8VIT is another 120HP for your healers to have as a buffer before you die :) The loss of 6Parry won't hurt you much. Also you get more DEF and MagDef out of it, so it is kinda better anyway^^

I havent +1 my Bravura yet and have no trouble keeping hate or ripping hate off of PLD if im blowing CDs for dmg and not watching hate (yea, my bad).

That being said, im looking at +1'ing my relic soon for PvP

-fuzz

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

I don't know where people get their information from, but look at the pieces, do the math and it is obvious in every single slot which is BiS :)

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Agreed.

Base Stats @ 50 PLD (Seawolf):
205 Str, 189 Dex, 237 Vit, 341 Parry, 341 Acc, 341 Crit, 202 Det, 341 SS

Plus Stat Allocation: 30 Vit

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** BIS Pre-clearing Turn 5, +Vit setup **

Neck: Allagan
Ear: Allagan
Wrist: Allagan
Ring1: Allagan
Ring2: Heros

Weapon: Curtana +1
Offhand: Allagan Shield
Head: Valor
Body: Valor
Hands: Valor
Waist: Allagan
Legs: Valor
Feet: Allagan

Grand Total (with above gear, no food):
361 Str, 189 Dex, 518 Vit, 566 Parry, 484 Acc, 371 Crit, 230 Det, 352 SS
HP: 6820.66 (in Party, no food) (Can swap Allagan Shield for Holy +1, but then will need to use food to hit Coil 5 Acc Cap)

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** BIS Post-clearing Turn 5, +Vit setup **

Neck: Allagan
Ear: Allagan
Wrist: Heros
Ring1: Allagan
Ring2: Heros

Weapon: Allagan Blade
Offhand: Allagan Shield
Head: Allagan
Body: Valor
Hands: Allagan
Waist: Allagan
Legs: Valor
Feet: Allagan

Grand Total (with above gear, no food):
361 Str, 189 Dex, 518 Vit, 594 Parry, 475 Acc, 352 Crit, 230 Det, 352 SS
HP: 6820.66 (in Party, no food) - Needs approx +5 Acc from Food to hit the Coil 5 Acc cap

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** BIS Pre-clearing Turn 5, +Str/Dex setup **

Neck: Melded Gryphonskin
Ear: Melded Rosegold Earcuffs
Wrist: Melded Gryphonskin
Ring1: Melded Gryphonskin
Ring2: Melded Gryphonskin

Weapon: Curtana +1
Offhand: Allagan Shield
Head: Valor
Body: Valor
Hands: Allagan
Waist: Allagan
Legs: Allagan
Feet: Allagan

Grand Total (with above gear, no food):
406 Str, 234 Dex, 493 Vit, 540 Parry, 484 Acc, 383 Crit, 284 Det, 359 SS
HP: 6447.285 (in Party, no food) (Can swap Allagan Shield for Holy +1, but then will need to use food to hit Coil 5 Acc Cap)

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** BIS Post-clearing Turn 5, +Str/Dex setup **

Neck: Melded Gryphonskin
Ear: Melded Rosegold Earcuffs
Wrist: Melded Gryphonskin
Ring1: Melded Gryphonskin
Ring2: Melded Gryphonskin

Weapon: Allagan
Offhand: Allagan Shield
Head: Allagan
Body: Valor
Hands: Allagan
Waist: Heroes
Legs: Allagan
Feet: Allagan

Grand Total (with above gear, no food):
406 Str, 234 Dex, 493 Vit, 553 Parry, 475 Acc, 368 Crit, 292 Det, 359 SS
HP: 6447.285 (in Party, no food) - Needs approx +5 Acc from Food to hit the Coil 5 Acc cap

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** Possible Upgrades via spending Myth **

Neck (Darklight --> Heroes) +5 Vit, -1 Parry, -9 Acc, +16 SS
Ear (Darklight --> Heroes) +5 Vit, -1 Parry, -6 Det, +16 SS
Wrist (Darklight --> Heroes) +5 Vit, +7 Parry, -12 Acc, +11 Crit
Waist (Darklight --> Heroes) +4 Str, +5 Vit, +4 Acc, -9 Parry, +8 Det, +3Def/+3MDef
Weapon (Relic --> +1) +3 Str, +4 Vit, +2 Parry, +3 Acc, +2 Damage (= +2.916% AA DPS, +2.959% WS DPS with Pre5 Vit BIS)
Offhand (Relic --> +1) +1 Str, +2 Vit, +2 Parry, +14 Block (= +1.2264% Block Strength)
Hands (Darklight --> Heroes) +6 Str, +6 Vit, +10 Parry, -16 Acc, +15 Crit, +4Def/+4MDef

Ring (Hoplite/Darklight --> Heroes/Darklight) +7 Vit, +3 Parry, +5 Acc
Ring (Allagan/Darklight --> Allagan/Heroes) +5 Vit, -1 Parry, +7 Acc

Head (Darklight --> Valor Head/Hoplite Body) +1 Str, +2 Vit, -43 Parry, +45 Acc, -15 Crit, +17 SS, -1Def/-1MDef
Body (Valor Head/Hoplite Body --> Both Valor) +13 Str, +15 Vit, +34 Parry, -24 Acc, +17 Det, -17 SS, +10Def/+10MDef

Body (Darklight --> Valor Body/Hoplite Head) +6 Str, +8 Vit, +2 Parry, -30 Crit, +15 Acc, +17 Det, +2Def/-2MDef
Head (Valor Body/Hoplite Head --> Both Valor) +8 Str, +9 Vit, -11 Parry, +6 Acc, +15 Crit +7Def/+7MDef

Legs (Darklight --> Valor Legs/Hoplite Feet) +6 Str, +8 Vit, -8 Acc, +4 Parry, +10 Det, +2Def/+2MDef
Feet (Valor Legs/Hoplite Feet --> Both Valor) +8 Str, +9 Vit, +15 Parry, +10 Acc, -10 Det, +7Def/+7MDef

Feet (Darklight --> Valor Feet/Hoplite Legs) +1 Str, +2 Vit, +9 Parry, +17 Crit, -22 Acc, -1Def/-1MDef
Legs (Valor Feet/Hoplite Legs --> Both Valor) +13 Str, +15 Vit, +10 Parry, -17 Crit, +24 Acc, +10Def/+10MDef

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** Primary Points (Vit) gained per 100 Myth points spent: **

1.333 Neck (Darklight --> Heroes) WARNING: -9 Acc
1.333 Ear (Darklight --> Heroes)
1.333 Wrist (Darklight --> Heroes) WARNING: -12 Acc
1.333 Waist (Darklight --> Heroes) Bonus: +4 Acc
0.667 Weapon (Relic --> +1) Bonus: +3 Acc, +3% WS Damage (and therefore enmity generation)
0.667 Offhand (Relic --> +1) Bonus: approx +0.3% Damage Mitigation versus non-magic frontal attacks
1.212 Hands (Darklight --> Heroes) WARNING: -16 Acc

1.867 Ring (Hoplite/Darklight --> Heroes/Darklight) Bonus: +5 Acc
1.333 Ring (Allagan/Darklight --> Allagan/Heroes) Bonus: +7 Acc

0.404 Head (Darklight --> Valor Head/Hoplite Body) Bonus: +45 Acc
1.818 Body (Valor Head/Hoplite Body --> Both Valor) WARNING: -24 Acc

0.970 Body (Darklight --> Valor Body/Hoplite Head) Bonus: +15 Acc
1.818 Head (Valor Body/Hoplite Head --> Both Valor) Bonus: +6 Acc

0.970 Legs (Darklight --> Valor Legs/Hoplite Feet) WARNING: -8 Acc
1.818 Feet (Valor Legs/Hoplite Feet --> Both Valor) Bonus: +10 Acc

0.404 Feet (Darklight --> Valor Feet/Hoplite Legs) WARNING: -22 Acc
1.818 Legs (Valor Feet/Hoplite Legs --> Both Valor) BONUS: +24 Acc

:)

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

The shield is an extremely potent upgrade. I agree the ring is also, but I wouldn't go past my first 3 upgrades without getting +1 sword/shield and heros ring (unless you get one of those three as a drop).

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As mentioned above, the Shield upgrade gives you +1.2264% Block Strength.

If we assume your block rate is about 24-25%, this equates to a boost in damage mitigation of around 0.3% over time versus non-magic frontal hits.

If you consider that to be worth your first week's myth, then by all means go for it.
Personally, I'd rather go for the Ring --> Body option for my first 4 weeks.

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Shield is only NOT BiS if you ahve access to turn 5 loot.

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Regarding BIS:

Post Turn 5, the Allagan Shield is undeniably BIS.

Pre-turn 5, if we ignore that using the Holy +1 shield over the Allagan requires you to use food for Turn 5 (you'll likely be eating Toast anyway for the +Vit and Parry) then it will grant you an extra 7 SS, which is enough to bring your GCD down from 2.162 seconds to 2.156 seconds.

If your reflexes are high enough to notice a 0.006 second GCD reduction, then more power to you. Personally I very much doubt that the server clock can even register a 6 millisecond time interval, so would consider spending a week's worth of Myth on that to be largely pointless (assuming that you already have the Allagan Shield). YMMV.

I have to disagree with your Post-Turn 5 set up, 15 crit rate (using valor gloves + feet instead of allagan) is more average through put than 11 DET.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

I have to disagree with your Post-Turn 5 set up, 15 crit rate (using valor gloves + feet instead of allagan) is more average through put than 11 DET.

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If Crit = Det in terms of additional damage granted, I'd agree with you... however Det is worth considerably more per point for a Paladin since we're not stacking DPS stats.

Plugging the BIS values into http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=260 with an Allagan weapon gives:

VIT SETUP:
361 Str, 189 Dex, 518 Vit, 594 Parry, 475 Acc, 352 Crit, 230 Det, 352 SS
361 Str, 189 Dex, 518 Vit, 594 Parry, 475 Acc, 367 Crit, 219 Det, 352 SS
WS: -0.45% DPS
AA: -2.12% DPS

STR/DEX SETUP:
406 Str, 234 Dex, 493 Vit, 553 Parry, 475 Acc, 368 Crit, 292 Det, 359 SS
406 Str, 234 Dex, 493 Vit, 553 Parry, 475 Acc, 383 Crit, 281 Det, 359 SS
WS: -0.31% DPS
AA: -1.57% DPS

Bottom line: always going to be a decrease, sorry :(

I went for +1 first point as paladin . never looked back, never will look back, its superb upgrade and remember kids: faster dps can nuke, faster mobs die outta your arses, but for dps to nuke faster you need to be able to hold all the aggro

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Originally Posted by Zazakura

I went for +1 first point as paladin . never looked back, never will look back, its superb upgrade and remember kids: faster dps can nuke, faster mobs die outta your arses, but for dps to nuke faster you need to be able to hold all the aggro

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It pretty much comes down to "Go for the +1 weapon whenever you are having trouble holding aggro with your DPS going flat out."
For most of us, it appears that this only really starts happening at Coil Turn 2s and 4.

It's a balancing act though. You can push the Threat output up much further if you're willing to start sacrificing a little Vit and Parry for it (and in extreme cases, respecing for +Str over +Vit)

The Gryphonskin setup I mentioned above is probably the best means I've found to boost a Paladin's threat output up as high as possible whilst sacrificing as little Vit and Parry as possible. There's actually another Gryphonskin setup which pushes up a Paladin's STR and DEX as high as possible (NOT threat output, just the raw STR and DEX values) whilst sacrificing as little Vit and Parry as possible and not burning a respec: this is the "Maximum Block/Parry" configuration... which is a rather odd build but can technically withstand a higher amount of incoming damage over time than a "Full Vit" setup. (Exactly how much extra mitigation over time it provides is up for debate - the affect of +Str on Block Strength is known, but there's a lot of ongoing theorycrafting about exactly how +Dex affects Block/Parry rate...)

Compared to the Post-T5 +Vit BIS build above, you'd basically use the Valor Hands and swap all the accessories out, sacrificing 9 Parry, 25 Vit and 2 Acc for 45 Dex, 45 Str, 31 Crit, 30 Det and 7 SS.

Does crit have walls you have to meet before it scales to a level that it is desirable? That's my only guess as to why it isn't worth it for PLD but every DPS class seems they can't get enough of it and laugh at DET.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

Does crit have walls you have to meet before it scales to a level that it is desirable? That's my only guess as to why it isn't worth it for PLD but every DPS class seems they can't get enough of it and laugh at DET.

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The damage formula is quite complex:
AA = (WAA/WD) x [((0.0032 x STR + 0.4162) x WD) + (0.1 x STR – 0.3529) + ((DTR – 202) x 0.11))] x (1 + (0.5 x (0.0693 x CRT – 18.486)/100))
WS = (Potency/100) x [((0.0032 x STR + 0.4162) x WD) + (0.1 x STR – 0.3529) + ((DTR – 202) x 0.035))] x (1 + (0.5 x (0.0693 x CRT – 18.486)/100))

Basically, it'll depend on what buffs you can stack (e.g. Internal Release!) more than anything else.
Look at the nature of how PLDs build threat... there's a noticeable difference to the weightings of Det on AA damage compared to WS damage, and Tanks basically build threat by spamming WS combos for +Enmity.

Finally, some DDs are very silly and don't know how their own stats weightings work and just assume Crit is always better because of all the nice big red numbers.
(Check this thread and look for the "I think my jump is broken" heading: even for certain DD jobs like DRG, +Det is "better" than +Crit point-for-point!) ;)

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

Massive amount of calculations here

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This is awesome, thank you for sharing this!

Seeing all the calculations here is definitely leading me to hold till next week to get the Valor helm next, was considering +1 Shield for the short term benefit in case the Allagan doesn't drop. Seeing the stat gains on each slot here has swayed me towards the helm instead (already have chest purchased).

I'd already figured out what I would work towards for BiS, but this helps me with my much larger problem and that's efficient use of Myth stones while working around Allagan drops.

Hi, I am about to spend my 1st myth gear and I wonder,

In case of upgrade from HDL Armor (Body+Helm) to Myth Armor. What do we use for Helm ? // Hoplite Helm?

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Originally Posted by WowSuchName

Hi, I am about to spend my 1st myth gear and I wonder,

In case of upgrade from HDL Armor (Body+Helm) to Myth Armor. What do we use for Helm ? // Hoplite Helm?

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Yup hoplite is your best bet, considering the allagan helm drops only on turn 5, and it would take you another 2 weeks approx to save enough myth for helm.

@JaTaisNoobie: Wow this is fast. Thx.

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Originally Posted by WowSuchName

@JaTaisNoobie: Wow this is fast. Thx.

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Spelt my name wrong :( but otherwise, no problem at all!