A different view of why we complain about lag and "the net code"

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Originally Posted by tymora

Blame it on the hackers and cheaters for all these problems.
Without them, developers could have put everything on client side.

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Yeah, well, that would seem logical… but in reality, facts contradict this view.
- FFXIV ARR did have some glaring exploits server side (SQL requests not being checked…) resulting in 380 billion gils created out of thin air, insta-level 50, teleportation hacks and whatnot. Hacking to this level is unprecedented in a 2010's AAA MMORPG.
- This game is plagued by RMT, much more than many others (WoW included, which would be the primary market for RMT), and this has more to do with the way they set up the economy (creation and destruction of gils, namely) than a supposed client protection which, again, was useless since the servers were not protected.
- From a computer science standpoint, empowering a client in a server-client architecture doesn't mean the server doesn't perform checks to validate clients inputs and requests. These are actually two separate things, so to speak. It's a matter of choice, consistency, and to put it bluntly, it's about making a smart design. In this case, the current design fails to protect the game in terms of security while failing at the same time to give a proper experience to the player: security isn't better, sync is mediocre.

So, no, we don't get to blame hackers and cheaters because the problem at hand (sync) lies not with them (every game faces such threats) but with the solution, or lack thereof, implemented by SE (whereas many other games manage these issues much better, and this is vastly documented after more than a decade of practice of massive online games).

I have to play on a satellite Internet connection with a ping of around 1s so I am very familiar with how latency affects the game. With almost every AoE attack if I am within the indicator area when it appears I will be hit by the attack no matter what I do. Alternatively, if the indicator appears next to me I can run right into it without being hit. I have played other online games where the hit detection is done client side (such as Terraria) and it makes an enormous difference when timing and accuracy are important, it almost feels as though I am playing the game locally. My connection is an extreme case but this seems to affect almost everyone enough that it is a common complaint. Since the difficulty of FFXIV seems to be in quickly dodging attacks it needs to actually allow us to do it. Losing battles through mistakes is a learning experience; losing battles through latency is just frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Jonny_Tapas

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... Sure that gives people opportunities to cheat, but we all know. Most of us don't want to cheat, most of us want to play the game.

Just continue catching and banning cheaters. Many of us that might cheat if it was an option don't because of the fear of the ban stick. If we keep that fear strong... Cheating is reduced... and for those few that still do it... Well, they just don't matter to me. I wouldn't even announce new detection systems in place... I'd just catch people and crack heads without warning. Cheat if you want... but hey... when you're busted you're busted!

I would also publicly humiliate cheaters. Once they're banned... I don't want to see (deleted) on the FC list. I want to see Their name and (Perma BANNED on the FC list big and bold for everyone to see!)

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they are serious against RMT bc it hurt pretty bad to FFXI so I don't think that they will just make it easier for them :)

you guys do know that if you use an action the server automatically updates your location?

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Originally Posted by Namasu

Why do people like OP get to lvl50 and still doesn't understand this? This isn't an action MMORPG. It's suppose to feel more turn base and cast timer dependent in the spirit of Final Fantasy's classic ATB system.

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This... am I seeing this correctly...

OK first... Says who?

Here's what I see since I've been playing this since the beginning of it's existence.

1.) We had a game with zero use for dodging mechanics to start with.
2.) Darkhold was introduced and the need to dodge Ogre slams and Batraal lazers raised a few eyebrows... Let the latency youtube begin.
3.) Ifrit was born and the issue became glaringly painful. It was paired with action lock not allowing you to move when performing an action. You couldn't even cancel.

Ever since this point SE has done nothing but develop ways to avoid lock and make the game feel smooth and seemless. Now we complain about gliding.

What about this to you favors turn-based over action RPG.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Hit detection needs to be placed client side, or SE needs to add longer wind-ups to mobs skills.

I dunno how many times I've watched a mobs cast bar continue to fill, while I'm outside the "danger zone" and yet still get hit.

How many times have I been hit by Weight of the Land during a Titan run when I was well outside the areas influence, before the wind-up cast bar completed.

If SE continues to move forward with these types of game mechanics they need to so something about this sever/client lag.

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I agree that they need to fix the .3 delay problem, however they should never (and I mean NEVER!) put hit detection on the client side. That will open it up to hackers that would be able to stand in the middle of an AoE and take 0 damage.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

I agree that they need to fix the .3 delay problem, however they should never (and I mean NEVER!) put hit detection on the client side. That will open it up to hackers that would be able to stand in the middle of an AoE and take 0 damage.

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Every other MMORPG have hit detection determined by the client. Do people thinK WoW invented teleportation so that it can consult the server for a hit detection without a roundtrip between client to server so that you always know you got hit (or not) the moment an ability is done casting?

SE needs to address this ASAP.

Atleast give an update and openly admit this is a huge issue affecting a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Kumop

you guys do know that if you use an action the server automatically updates your location?

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Watch this and tell me how that fixes anything. ->

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ripyJWGWNIo

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I flat out stopped even trying to dodge the keepers AOE in WP.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

I flat out stopped even trying to dodge the keepers AOE in WP.

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With all indicators in this game, it seems like you have to move before you see it. In this case, you have to watch the boss, once he turns around, just start moving. I know it's not a fix because that's something SE needs to look into but it's a work around for this fight. :)

150 pages weeeeee
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-fix-something.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

I flat out stopped even trying to dodge the keepers AOE in WP.

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Lol. Agreed. That one seems the worst for me for some reason. No matter how quick I move and how far away from the red I am I almost always get hit anyways.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

I flat out stopped even trying to dodge the keepers AOE in WP.

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Cause that boss is a joke and all you have to do is get dispelled, and if you are caster, use sure cast to not get your spell interrupted :D
(I almost never dodge it neither :P)

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Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

With all indicators in this game, it seems like you have to move before you see it. In this case, you have to watch the boss, once he turns around, just start moving. I know it's not a fix because that's something SE needs to look into but it's a work around for this fight. :)

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Yeah, or be right quick about moving out.. I have read that if you are precise about the dodge (stop moving once you are out of the circle) and start an action (use a spell or skill?) your position checks gets forced and it's actually more effective than just running further out. I still have to try this out since I'm not home, but it sounds true, plus the best times I've dodged everything sucessfully, I was actually also trying to optimize my damage by moving as little as necessary and casting right away (to get more spells off, as a BLM). So guys, if you are having troubles. Please try this strategy.

P.S.: SE, fix this goddamn issue. : D

Use an ability after moving out of the indicator zones. The client apparently only updates the server when an ability forces it to or every Xms or so. The server also believes anything the client tells it as far as movement/location, which is why hex editing teleportation bots work. You'll also never rubber band in this game, regardless of how bad your lag is, as the server isn't enforcing any movement patterns.

If you want some practice, roll a tank and spend level 15-50 running dungeons, you'll quickly learn to time a hit in as soon as you strafe out of cleaves.

I'm 100% positive about this, and noticed it leveling my PAL after the 2nd or third dungeon dodging AEs. It may take some experimentation to figure out what abilities per class cause an ability check, however I'm positive this works. Either that or I've got some magical copy of FF14 that gives me mystical powers that I'm unaware of.

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Originally Posted by Jonny_Tapas

This... am I seeing this correctly...

OK first... Says who?

Here's what I see since I've been playing this since the beginning of it's existence.

1.) We had a game with zero use for dodging mechanics to start with.
2.) Darkhold was introduced and the need to dodge Ogre slams and Batraal lazers raised a few eyebrows... Let the latency youtube begin.
3.) Ifrit was born and the issue became glaringly painful. It was paired with action lock not allowing you to move when performing an action. You couldn't even cancel.

Ever since this point SE has done nothing but develop ways to avoid lock and make the game feel smooth and seemless. Now we complain about gliding.

What about this to you favors turn-based over action RPG.

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The answer:

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Originally Posted by Namasu

I said "feel" more turn based not supposed to be turn based, but it seems you're just like most people on this forum with terrible reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by Jonny_Tapas

..indicator is deciding weather or not you are to take damage..

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I understand what you are trying to say and do here but, you do not understand game engines and programming. The indicator is there because of something called a "hitbox". which is the reason why also you can, in many different games, hit a massive dragon with a melee weapon from miles away. If they were to apply a hit box on moving particles in-game; such as plumes. Trust me you would have more problems than just lag. Game mechanics and engine mechanics are all hidden within the graphics to make the look and feel seem legit. The real issue here is that the hitbox does not register with your toons hitbox and the server/client does not ping back and forth fast enough.The lag is created from poor server management and high game engine output. Basically they made a game engine that their servers can not handle. It will be fixed all it takes is time to work out the engine kinks.

What happens behind the scenes:
Monster ability goes off = red indicator pops
1)Game engine registers your position; along with anyone else's position around the ability - this is a number for the engine, like coordinate.
2)You move calculates your position along with everyone else's position < the problem is here. sometimes when you move because the engine is throwing so much information at the server it lags on return to the client.
3) Ability happens in real time; game uses the information last recorded which could be your new position or your original position depending on how much the sever lagged to send the info back and forth.

A quick way to fix a position issue is to after moving out of the indicator quickly cast/use an ability to send a signal that this ability is being used at this coordinate. This is not something that works every time. "60% of the time it works, every time."