What is the "recommended" gear to enter each Turn of Binding Coil of Bahamut?

Stats when I first did Coils 1 to 3

http://i.imgur.com/Cax7rJt.png

Stats when I beat Coil 4 for the first time

http://i.imgur.com/b9ptT2W.png

Thanks for all the answers!

I've upgraded my gear a lot since the last time I posted and oh god I see the difference. I went into Coil T1 two days after my initial post. I was holding my ground and could heal with little problems.

I went for AF2 chest 1st and I don't know why people suggests going for +1 first, but upgrading my ilvl55 to ilvl90 chest was such a godly boost in everything: heals, HP, spell speed. My Cure1 and 2 pop in under 2 secs now (1.91 secs to be exact), I got +200 hp only with the chest. I heal for ~1k+ with Cure1.

I also got DL Pants, Boots, Belt, Gloves, Ring and Necklace since my initial post on October 31st. By Nov 22nd, I'll have my AF2 head piece (depending on how fast I can gather the remaining Myths). To get Relic+1 first as an healer is a sub-par IMO. The upgrade is less significant (for an healer though) since you go from ilvl80 to ilvl90 compared to my chest when I went from ilvl55 to ilvl90 and skipping the garbage DL chest.

There are a lot of ways people consider gearing... and even more rules people use for what you need to have to participate. I keep things simple (at least I think so)

You don't need BiS everything to participate
Titan HM : 3,000hp minimum, 3,500 recommended. At least an ilv55 weapon (60 preferred)
Coil Turn 1 : content based on ilv80. Relic weapon on attending class, some DL gear, nothing lower than il55 (WP/AK/DL mix is ok)
Coil Turn 2 : content based on ilv82. nothing lower than il60, at least 1 piece of il90 (AK/DL/Myth-Allagn)
Coil Turn 4/5 : i haven't gotten to this point yet. I would say relic+1 by this point, and nothing under il70 (DL/Myth-allagn)

Now what you upgrade and when will vary depending on if you're investing in crafted equipment (and all the materia to go with it), and how lucky you are with Coil gear drops.

In my opinion this means you should probably not be upgrading pieces that drop from coil turn 1 ... but rather from turn 4/5

It depends on your skills.
If you can't complete Titan with ilvl50 gear, you upgrade to ilvl60, and if this is still too low for your char, then get to 70, 80, 90.
I am doing Caduceus with Relic and nearly full DL gear, AF2 gloves, I'm farming myth to get the AF2 robe, but just because I like its design and hate the DL cowl.
You have to have a gear that can compensate your lacks, if you are a great healer you can heal even in full AF1, no problem.
You don't have to dps so ilvl70 is not so strictly required.

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Originally Posted by YanDere

It depends on your skills.

You have to have a gear that can compensate your lacks, if you are a great healer you can heal even in full AF1, no problem.
You don't have to dps so ilvl70 is not so strictly required.

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Nope. There are some things in this game that you simply cannot pass without proper gear - for instance, Twintania fireballs.

A full AF1 healer will get trashed in Coil, not to mention you'll have some seriously cross teammates. You need the skill to maximize your equipment, not skill to make up for the lack of gear.

By the time you hit Coil you should have Relic and DL (or the stat equivalent). Anything less and you are basically requesting a carry.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Nope. There are some things in this game that you simply cannot pass without proper gear - for instance, Twintania fireballs.

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Did you bother scrolling up a bit the comments, not even changing the page? Yui Mhcp did Coil 1, 2 and 3 in full lv60/blank gear. "How much data do you still need?" (your words).
The geat is really too low when you can't withstand a single random aggro hit, like the small wind attacks from Garuda. But I one of them leaves you with 1 HP, the gear is not too low.
I don't know Twintania, I'm not at that point yet, but you can beat Caduceus as long as you survive 1 Regorge.
And, obviously, I'm talking about healers. Tank and dps must have a gear that allows them to survive/do enough damage.
I got to Titan with 2900 HP, not a single DL and 2 AK, the rest AF1 and a blank lv49 wand, is that a problem?

I could beat Titan naked with a ghost costume. That doesn't mean its a good idea.

If you are below Relic+DL, you are likely getting carried and you will start feeling the lack in throughput significantly by Turn 4. You won't pass Turn 4 with an entire group at ilevel 60.

It has nothing to do with "taking damage", if you take direct damage in Coil as a healer - you are probably dead. Everything is going to hit you really hard, even if you roll in with full ilevel 90. The concern is with throughput. The carry is best handled through DPS or Healing because you can end tough mechanics faster and have the ability to pour on huge heals (normally would be over heal).

Your gear for Titan is fine. People grossly overestimate that fight. I did it without a single DL.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

I could beat Titan naked with a ghost costume. That doesn't mean its a good idea.

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You can end the fight? The gear is good. Stop.
Being carried means not doing anything while others are battling, if you are keeping alive a tank then you are not being carried.
You can do Titan naked with a ghost costume? Do it. It IS a good idea, if you can do it.

The gear set I posted above is what I did Titan with as well.
I was just too lazy and cheap to buy gear for Yui, therefore I just went trough the entire story-line with Santa suit.
I beat Titan with Santa, and did Coils with Santa until I was lucky enough to get some dungeon drops.

Now I'm getting a Darklight piece or 2 every week since I need to cap my Mythology points.

And you cant say someone got carried automatically. Specially a healer.
Yes it is possible to carry a healer, but likelihood of that happening in Titan is minimal. (Unless that healer just dies every 2 seconds - In my case I don't get hit once in Titan aside from stomps)

I think people saying AK gear is sufficient are a little short-sighted and/or selfish. Tell me this: do you think you could get through even turn 1 with EVERYONE in the party in only AK gear? I'm betting you'd struggle to down the ADS miniboss.

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Originally Posted by Hiro_Protagonist

I think people saying AK gear is sufficient are a little short-sighted and/or selfish. Tell me this: do you think you could get through even turn 1 with EVERYONE in the party in only AK gear? I'm betting you'd struggle to down the ADS miniboss.

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Oh well, didn't you read above? Or did you just scroll rapidly and put random words together?
HEALERS can do everything until turn 3-4 in full AK gear. Dps need something more to deal more damage, tanks need something more to have more HP/defense.
But HEALERS - healers, not tanks or dps, healers, the ones with canes and books and fairies - can do nearly everything in ilvl60 gear.

Ugh. Yes, I've replied several times throughout the thread and have read each post. My point--which you failed to grasp--was that if you go in with lower-level gear than the rest of the group that you lean on them and hold them to a higher standard than you do yourself.

Simply because you pass a fight, it doesn't mean that you weren't carried. If you are the lowest contributor, you've just been carried.

Yes, that means at least 1 person in all parties is being carried. If you can't keep up with game progression, you are anchor weighing the rest of us down.

I'll admit it - I've been carried. However, unlike some I'm quite unsatisfied with that. I'll keep practicing and tweaking strategies until I'm the top contributor.

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Originally Posted by Kam8T88

I think HM Titan is a good litmus test. If your FC is having trouble with HM Titan you're probably not ready for Coil and should gear up more.

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I was able to heal with a decently geared (nothing great) SCH with me being in full AK and ifrits cane perfectly fine. never had MP issues (as a WHM). I have since upgraded to thyrus and Vanya robe, however with the lack of play time and Coil commitments its harder than you think to find the time to do 8 runs let alone 20+ needed to get some gear :/ However Titan in full AK and Iffy cane was easy enough (used vit accessories to boost HP above stomp threshold)

a little random but if you look at the stat diffrences between strategos head and armor you dont need DL theres a little diffrence like 3 for each stat

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Originally Posted by krodin

a little random but if you look at the stat diffrences between strategos head and armor you dont need DL theres a little diffrence like 3 for each stat

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Strategos Head + Chest to Darklight Cowl
+7 Mind, +6 Vit, -5 Piety, +29 Det, -28 Spell Speed for a Total of 3% larger heals and 2% larger throughput.

Not an upgrade at all...

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Originally Posted by Hiro_Protagonist

Ugh. Yes, I've replied several times throughout the thread and have read each post. My point--which you failed to grasp--was that if you go in with lower-level gear than the rest of the group that you lean on them and hold them to a higher standard than you do yourself.

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Because healing for 3-4% more is going to matter. Not.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Simply because you pass a fight, it doesn't mean that you weren't carried. If you are the lowest contributor, you've just been carried.

Yes, that means at least 1 person in all parties is being carried. If you can't keep up with game progression, you are anchor weighing the rest of us down.

I'll admit it - I've been carried. However, unlike some I'm quite unsatisfied with that. I'll keep practicing and tweaking strategies until I'm the top contributor.

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And this is just wrong. In every way possible.

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Originally Posted by Budi

And this is just wrong. In every way possible.

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Yet you give not one reason why.

How can someone who is contributing more than everyone else not carry the group? By simple definition if you outperform the average you are making up for someone who underperformed. That is carrying.

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Originally Posted by Hiro_Protagonist

I think people saying AK gear is sufficient are a little short-sighted and/or selfish. Tell me this: do you think you could get through even turn 1 with EVERYONE in the party in only AK gear? I'm betting you'd struggle to down the ADS miniboss.

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I'm of the opinion a well organised group could indeed do the first 3 turns in nothing more than AK gear.
Is it a good idea for most players? Of course not ^_^
I do have to agree: if you go in with less gear that your team, you are being selfish. You aren't putting in as much effort as everyone else. But at the end of the day it's the result that really matters. If you can still clear the content, it's not a big deal unless the others think it is.

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Originally Posted by kayuwoody

I'm of the opinion a well organised group could indeed do the first 3 turns in nothing more than AK gear.
Is it a good idea for most players? Of course not ^_^
I do have to agree: if you go in with less gear that your team, you are being selfish. You aren't putting in as much effort as everyone else. But at the end of the day it's the result that really matters. If you can still clear the content, it's not a big deal unless the others think it is.

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I think a healer/tank could pull that off, but prevailing strategies on Caduceus are basically a DPS race. Spawning slimes puts additional stress on the healers, I'm not sure if AK gear can sustain that kind of throughput requirement.

However, if you are at Coil - you have your relic. If you have your relic you should have some DL. If you roll into Coil in AK gear and a relic, I feel like you've been selfish for quite some time. What makes it worse is that DL gear is farmable. There's no cap on that progression...so I mean, cmon - do your team a favor....

A lot of emphasis is put into DL, and it just isn't as good for healers as many make it seem. Especially when compared to AK gear, it is only one drop down on the rung after all. Full DL is obviously better than Full AK, but if you mix some AK with some DL (particularly with accessories) you will have a better result.

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Originally Posted by Zezeba

Strategos Head + Chest to Darklight Cowl
+7 Mind, +6 Vit, -5 Piety, +29 Det, -28 Spell Speed for a Total of 3% larger heals and 2% larger throughput.

Not an upgrade at all...

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Originally Posted by Budi

Because healing for 3-4% more is going to matter. Not.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

A lot of emphasis is put into DL, and it just isn't as good for healers as many make it seem. Especially when compared to AK gear, it is only one drop down on the rung after all. Full DL is obviously better than Full AK, but if you mix some AK with some DL (particularly with accessories) you will have a better result.

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And here we get to the heart of the debate. To many respondents, gear doesn't really matter. Even posting screenshots of their characters and their progression.

More power to them. Play like you want, if your team is OK with that, then that's your prerogative. Even better if you clear turns in sub-par gear.

For me, that really brings into question why people even gear up in the first place if they think that small differences (which, remember, add up to big differences when taken as a whole). But hey, if you think 3-4% doesn't matter, then that's your choice. But to most of us, any percent means "easier".

Kayuwoody sums it up nicely.

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Originally Posted by kayuwoody

I'm of the opinion a well organised group could indeed do the first 3 turns in nothing more than AK gear.
Is it a good idea for most players? Of course not ^_^
I do have to agree: if you go in with less gear that your team, you are being selfish. You aren't putting in as much effort as everyone else. But at the end of the day it's the result that really matters. If you can still clear the content, it's not a big deal unless the others think it is.

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Not much else to say. I think that at least some people here, or at least the lurkers, are also interested in generally-accepted, public, pick-up group requirements, and that's a whole different standard than what your static/friends/FC/LS is OK with.

I used the term "sub-par" because it's a golf analogy. The difficulty of any particular course is standardized. About half of players will need to gear beyond the recommended level, and half can clear it geared well below the recommended level.

Yes, you and a handful of players can clear the course when you are well below par. This has no bearing on what the average player will encounter, which is a par somewhere between average ilvl80-90 to clear through Turn 5. If you expect to join, be accepted by, and easily win Coil with ilvl50-60, you are, at best, sadly mistaken, and at worst,

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

...you are anchor weighing the rest of us down.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Yet you give not one reason why.

How can someone who is contributing more than everyone else not carry the group? By simple definition if you outperform the average you are making up for someone who underperformed. That is carrying.

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I don't have to give a reason, because there is no logic behind your statement. Your "simple definition" is bullsht. You imply that there is always someone who gets carried, which is completely wrong, you don't have to make up anything; the only thing that changes with gear is "easiness" and speed. Also you imply that gear = performance, which again is wrong.

I put "easiness" in quotation marks, because what you really mean is "lazyness". The better gear you have, the lazier you can be while having the same contribution.

If you parse 2 Healers (in Turn 2), and the first healer did much more healing, but the other one was targeted by every single Laser and Slow. Was the 2nd Healer less useful, was he carried? Your whole "logic" of contribution is flawed by the fact that noone is just standing around and doing perfect rotations. Hence, how you deal with each situation and how you use your abilities is much more important than gear.

...and no, I don't have a static/fc/ls group. I'm pugging almost every time. Had no complains (not even once), mostly compliments and expressions of gratitude. But I guess I was carried every time because I had 10 Mind less than the other Healer.

I'd be the first to admit that 2-3% throughput isn't a whole lot, and that skill > gear, but you've got to remember, 3% throughput by any member of the group could be the difference between a successful run and a wipe. Some of the enrage timers on this game are pretty tight, with a good chunk of the successful turn 5 clears beating the enrage by 4-5 seconds... 3% less dps by any one member on those runs and it would have been a wipe. HP is also very important in some cases, especially on titan. No amount of skill as a dps will help you survive the phase 5 stomps, and lower hp means more work for the healers, and even healers need to worry about it to some degree. The question as a healer for titan really should be: "If my healing partner is in a gaol, and a couple dps are down, can I heal through a mountain buster and a set of stomps on my own?". If the answer is no, you're asking for a carry.

Healing is not damage. As long as you don't let the tank die and don't run out of MP you fullfilled your duty. Even if you heal for 100% more it won't change anything. That's why the 2-3% increase is pointless.

Of course we could talk about required HP, but the only places where it matters is Turn 5, and untill you reach Turn 5 you probably gathered some Allagan/Myth gear pieces anyway. So there is no point talking about it. (Also you need to gear differently for it anyway as you cant get enough HP without respec or crafted accessoires.)

Healing is not damage, but a healer that just heals is like a summoner who never uses virus, eye for an eye or brez, or a bard who doesn't use songs. If that 3% gives you the cushion it takes to throw out the odd aero, it increases your contribution, and again may push your group past an enrage they wouldn't have beat otherwise. An upgrade is an upgrade, and ignoring it because you can't be bothered is lazy, arrogant and a disservice to your group.

Healer gear doesn't really matter in this game since the healing required is not steep and generally most deaths are out of your control.

People could heal twintania with full darklight/ strategos and relic+1 weapon.

In competitive mmo guilds generally all the gear goes to the dps. Simply because after healers reach the minimum gear needed to heal a fight. They don't really need more then that. The minimum gear to heal in this game is easily reached.

However gear really matters for your dps , more dps really makes much fights easier and there are dps check in coils. Quite a few in Twintania(including a hard enrage) and some in turn 4.

Healing is very lenient you do not need any ilvl90 peices to reach enough hps to heal fights in this game.

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Originally Posted by Isrea

Healing is not damage, but a healer that just heals is like a summoner who never uses virus, eye for an eye or brez, or a bard who doesn't use songs. If that 3% gives you the cushion it takes to throw out the odd aero, it increases your contribution, and again may push your group past an enrage they wouldn't have beat otherwise. An upgrade is an upgrade, and ignoring it because you can't be bothered is lazy, arrogant and a disservice to your group.

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I repeat. I won't talk about Twintania gear, as this is a complete different issue. Nontheless, if you want to take the chance to DPS instead of being ready to heal, go ahead, but don't be surprised if your Tank suddenly decides to die.

Also, there is no moment in Coil, were dealing damage should even be consideres as a "smart" option. It's always better to a) either cast Stoneskin, b) use AoE Heal, c) Heal other players, d) wait 1 second to cast another Heal.

I'm not talking specifically about Twintania, furthest I've been so far is turn 4, but never a good idea to dps a bit in coil? I can think of a few places, particularly the aoe phases in turn 4, most group will at least have the white mages help out a bit with holy in the aoe phases. I'm really having trouble finding the consistency in your argument though, if you don't have the time to dps (which is perfectly reasonable and expected in much of coil) you should be happy to get a 3% boost in throughput. I would never advocate a healer dpsing instead of healing, I advocate dpsing instead of wasting time overhealing or doing nothing while waiting to need to heal.

An upgrade is never useless, if you already meet the base requirements for your job without it, then it will give you more margin for error, or allow you to exceed your base role.

Yes, I DPS in phase 4, but it has nothing to do with my gear. It's just that the party takes almost no damage in that turn and doesn't need healing.

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Originally Posted by Isrea

I'm really having trouble finding the consistency in your argument though, if you don't have the time to dps (which is perfectly reasonable and expected in much of coil) you should be happy to get a 3% boost in throughput.

An upgrade is never useless, if you already meet the base requirements for your job without it, then it will give you more margin for error, or allow you to exceed your base role.

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Hm? My argument is that a) 2-3%, even 10% increase in healing won't be the reason your party fails or not; b) Using your abilities correctly is much more important than gear. Both arguments obviously imply that you wear the minimum required gear to keep your party alive.
Other than that I'm just pointing out stupidities of others in this thread. (Like saying that there is always someone who gets carried.)

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Originally Posted by Budi

Hm? My argument is that a) 2-3%, even 10% increase in healing won't be the reason your party fails or not;

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This is the only part of what you are saying that I disagree with, 3% isn't a difference you'll feel but it is a difference. There are some very nasty straight up throughput challenges such as having the two dreads up at the beginning of t4 phase 6 where very bit helps, and the rest of the time that 3% might just be the cushion that lets you survive small errors in judgement or hiccup because of lag. Every little bit helps.

But anyway, I think we've kind of sidetracked things here. I think the main point that needs to get made in this thread is that when you are deciding where to spend your mythology tomestones your current gear is mostly irrelevant. You don't compare the difference in upgrade from relic to +1 against ilvl55 to af2, you compare darklight to af2 because there is no rng involved in getting darklight.

And yeah, no one is being carried if they are contributing in a meaningful way, even if their gear is a little under par.

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Originally Posted by Isrea

This is the only part of what you are saying that I disagree with, 3% isn't a difference you'll feel but it is a difference. There are some very nasty straight up throughput challenges such as having the two dreads up at the beginning of t4 phase 6 where very bit helps, and the rest of the time that 3% might just be the cushion that lets you survive small errors in judgement or hiccup because of lag. Every little bit helps.

But anyway, I think we've kind of sidetracked things here. I think the main point that needs to get made in this thread is that when you are deciding where to spend your mythology tomestones your current gear is mostly irrelevant. You don't compare the difference in upgrade from relic to +1 against ilvl55 to af2, you compare darklight to af2 because there is no rng involved in getting darklight.

And yeah, no one is being carried if they are contributing in a meaningful way, even if their gear is a little under par.

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I don't think this is a tangential discussion. It's vital for people to understand that the contribution of equipment upgrades is minuscule compared to the importance of skill and execution. Taking damage, making mistakes, or failing to address mechanics is a much greater pull on the party than being undergeared.

That being said, even the smallest percentages will, over time, manifest themselves in success rates and overall impressions of battles. There's no excuse to being undergeared if the rest of the party is well-equipped, understands the fight, and has mastered their job.