Paladin Cure... Debate, warrior stuff

You can have decent heals if they take away Hallowed Ground and Sentinel.

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Originally Posted by Anachronox

Sounds great...take your hp stance away

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Sure, as long as Wars get that HP buff by default and generate the same amount of enmity without the damage reduction ;p EDIT: Almost forgot, remove wrath and make it where we can constantly spam Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone.
-pretty much what this thread is asking for for Pld. 'Oh hai guise, lets take the already preferred tanking class and buff it!'

yeah nope.

Sounds great...take your hp stance away

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Originally Posted by Kantide

The only thing I can think of is that Paladin is now like Knight from FFT (which is it's Japanese name and should have been translated as such)

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FFXI's Paladin is also called Knight in the JP version.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Even Warrior has more healing potential than PLD.

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As it should considering that most of Warrior's damage mitigation is supposed to come from self-healing. Give Paladins the ability to heal themselves better than a Warrior on top of their already much better defensive abilities and why in the world would anyone ever use a Warrior?

SE needs to bring Warriors up to the level of Paladins before they consider buffing Paladins.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

The only FF game where PLD healing is worth anything is FF11.

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Originally Posted by HaplessHermit

While this is true, this is also an MMO, and it can't really follow the same pattern as single-player games. I don't expect a Paladin to keep themselves alive, but their cures do seem a bit limited. Then again, I'm not a Paladin, just a White Mage.

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I think you need to get your brain checked Hermit, only if you thought FFXI is a single player game.

I can see some changes that could be possible. Change Sword Oath to give 25% improvement on heals rather than dps and decrease dps by 25%.
Give them Cure II but remove hollowed ground and replace it with a buff to allow a cast to be uninterrupted so they can utilize cure II.
Since they gain an extra cross class ability need to remove something probably from conjurer however I would like to see them lose the warrior 20% defensive buff.

Now like a warrior can be used as a sub par dps when only 1 tank is needed the paladin can be used as a sub par healer when only 1 is needed.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

A PLD should never be casting stoneskin, it's a waste of time, just like cure.

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no it isn't...

it's the spell you cast during p5 landslides when your proper mitigation cooldowns(sentinel/rampart/bulwark/*sigh*foresight) aren't available (not to mention any of the other encounters where big burst is headed your way and you've established an enmity lead already)

helping mitigate some of the damage from rock buster -> mountain buster is the only real contribution a tank can make on titan, don't tell people not to do it.

that's as bad as the people telling new tanks to not bother dodging the bombs... there's so little a tank can do on titan to influence the outcome of the fight, and people like you come along and attempt to trivialize the role even more

tldr - don't listen to molly, she's a bad tank.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

A PLD should never be casting stoneskin, it's a waste of time, just like cure.

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WRONG. You should cast it when you got enmity lead and a big damage move is coming up.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

the ffxiv pld IS the Knight, unfortunately.

i'm perfectly fine with how pld is right now by focusing on high mitigation, although to be able to cast more potent cures would be very nice for emergencies.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

There can be no "unfortunately" because there is no such thing as a Paladin in FF games. Every time you see the word "Paladin" in a FF game, know that its actually "Knight".

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Originally Posted by Valcro

You do understand that it is called Paladin in english because that is essentially what they chose to go with? It doesn't matter if the Japanese wording is "knight", the NA team will choose different terms and not always do a direct translation because sometimes there isn't even a direct translation.

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If that's the case, then the translation team really messed up.

A Paladin is a "holy warrior", the 12th century version of the modern day suicide bomber terrorist: A paladin was somebody who went off to murder massive numbers of people who's only failing was not having the same religion as them, all under a very harmful interpretation of their own religion by political types who manipulated those young men for their own power advancement.

Its not a knight, its a sociopath.

It may sound silly to some, but the reason I never pick Paladin in MMOs is the archetype if based on something the modern world near-universally sees are the purest form of evil.

Now if we wanted to make the Paladin the self healer... we'd basically need to flip the names of the two tanks, and move their cross class abilities:

An axe wielder that self heals and gets skills from conjurer: Paladin.
Sword and shield user with mitigation who get skills from Pugilist: Warrior.

- You'd be remaking both, into something different. Its probably 4 years too late for this conversation.

*****

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Originally Posted by Makeda

The tank job with self healing is called Warrior.

Everybody gets something, in exchange for not having something else.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Bloodbath is the OP self healing.

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The point is not about whether or not the balance team tweaked the numbers right. The goal is that warrior is the self healing tank, paladin is the mitigation one. IF the balance team is still employed in a year, the numbers will have likely been tweaked more... as the goal has not changed (and frankly, outside of the HM level 50 content, the goal is working: At my level I can self-heal from 20% to full in 2, sometimes 1 GCD - self healing might even be TOO STRONG before 50... Some Warriors say that even in the HM level 50 stuff it works - but I'm not there yet so I can't speak from knowledge).

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

I want to cast Cure and Esuna and Raise on others, though.

You know, being more than a stun bot on some occasions...

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So you basically want to be able to play both tank classes at the exact same time... If you get all that, what do you give all of the other classes in the game?

We could just start arguing for a game with no classes... Its worked in table top RPGs, maybe they could do it in an MMO. But that would be a game very different from this one.

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Originally Posted by Devilray

WRONG. You should cast it when you got enmity lead and a big damage move is coming up.

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In this case I use one of the plethora of damage mitigating skills available to PLD natively, which all do a better job than SS.

They stripped all of Paladin's native healing abilities from 1.0. I think they should have just made PGL Paladin's other subclass. At least that way they would get self healing and more mitigation.

To be honest, the majority of the cross class skills are worthless/useless. You either don't need them or they do relatively nothing. I just leveled my 2nd pally and she is at 33 now. I have a lancer with this character also and I was hoping this time (vs my other pally on another server) to have a cross class skill usable from lancer. But once I got the pally stone, it will no longer let me use invigorate. How useless. One of the good skills all TP users can use, and its not available on my pally, but it is on my gladiator? What gives. I can run out of TP on long boss fights or when I try to chain up mobs in dungeons. Or even if someone pulls something extra mobs on accident, your tp can run out. I was very disappointed that invigorate would not cross class for a pally, but does for a gladiator. Pretty terrible. And yea cure is to weak. Pally does still have a lot of abilities it can use, but invigorate should have been cross class-able.

They could have made it more interesting by making skills that do cross over do something a little different when mixed with a new class. To make it more interesting and possibly to avoid balance issues or whatever their reasoning may be. Like instead of cure just curing it did something a little different. And invigorate could have done something a little different other than just restore TP. Maybe this will be something they change or work on in the future. I am sure the game has plenty of things the developers want to do. Just have to give it time.

I believe we are missing the point here....why call class a pld and give it a heal if it'd useless at endgame?

Using that logic let's say the warrior hp buff shouldn't scale also. .

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Originally Posted by Anachronox

I believe we are missing the point here....why call class a pld and give it a heal if it'd useless at endgame?

Using that logic let's say the warrior hp buff shouldn't scale also. .

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Umm, if you're complaining about that there's actually a ton of other cross-class skills that are useless.

I'm also not sure why you continue to insist on linking the Paladin's lackluster Cure with Warrior damage-mitigation abilities (which are currently inferior than a Paladin's). At the moment Paladins are definitely better tanks than Warriors. Warriors are the ones that need a buff, not Paladins.

[QUOT E=Gilthas;1 497449]Umm, if you're complaining about that there's actually a ton of other cross-class skills that are useless.

I'm also not sure why you continue to insist on linking the Paladin's lackluster Cure with Warrior damage-mitigation abilities (which are currently inferior than a Paladin's). At the moment Paladins are definitely better tanks than Warriors. Warriors are the ones that need a buff, not Paladins.[/QUOTE]

..again you miss the point. I'm not saying warriors are not broke, I'm saying a Paladin main difference from a typical tanking class is its heal and buffs....which are useless here at 50.

Yes please fix warrior's I started off as one, but don't call a class something it's not.

I was very disappointed with Paladin class in the game because it feels nothing like a Paladin but instead like a simple boring Knight. I don't care if Cure is used for enmity or survival. I don't care if Pld mitigation needs to be reduced to make Cure viable. I don't care if War mitigation needs to be buffed to make it fair to give Pld self healing. Paladin needs to have Cure or some variation of it incorporated into its basic rotation to make it complete.