Summoner - The whining needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

DoT ticks don't wake monsters.

DoTs getting applied does.

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Oh. I knew it was one way or the other. My FCmates mostly never sleep anything, it's only when I use DF that I run into people who bother with CC, so I forget about these things.

If I understand the tankspeak in my FC, the PLDs rotate Emnity combos while sticking a Flash in here or there. So it goes...

Shield -> Flash (in mob) -> Start single target rotations, jumping from one mob to the next. DPS focus down the marks while the tank keep the emnity on all the mobs. It seems to work pretty well, as I've never been able to pull AK mobs off them with Bane.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

I've had BLMs in groups that were WAY overgeared (only thing they didn't have was any coil drops) and perpetually bitched that I couldn't keep stuff off of them. The first boss in Castrum Meridianum is an excellent example because one BLM with relic +1 made that dungeon hell. After his first Astral Fire rotation there was nothing me or the other tank could do to pull it off of him. Nothing. Provoke didn't do anything, spamming everything we had, using all MP on Flash, etc. I was only able to buy him a few second with Cover when it was up, but nothing the warrior tank did even phased it. And during all that bitching about taking damage it never occurred to that BLM to SLOW DOWN. He had one speed on his damage output that he was unwilling to adjust, and it's stuff like that that makes a lot of tanks either bitter or just quit.

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In that kind of situation, I probably would have spoken up in party chat with something along the lines of: "OK guys, let Black Mage Evilwizardington have his fun. {Manawall} {Tank} {You can have this}."

And if he still didn't back down, let him tank the boss.

Seriously. If he's fully Relic/Tome geared in an AF party and refuses to slow down, let him tank and faceplant, and then leave him chewing dirt until the boss is beaten (if he hasn't ragequit before then). As long as your healers don't waste their entire MP bar trying to keep him alive, the remaining party members will easily complete the boss after the "problem player" is out of the picture. In those situations the best thing a Tank can do for the party is make sure they stay #2 on the aggro list so that hate goes back to where it should be once the overeager party member dies. Your responsibility as a Tank is to protect the rest of the party as best you can - maintain a good hate lead over the rest of the players, let the idiot faceplant, and then the remaining members of the party can continue the fight as normal.

I can sort of understand if you had been fighting trash mobs and the BLM kept focussing on one target and pulling hate from it - if they're highly geared then they can tank a trash mob without much bother, so it wouldn't have been a problem for the rest of you. Bosses are another story. No sympathy for them there.

Technically a Summoner could also pull that same level of ST DPS on a boss, so I suppose all this would apply to them too... (though not so much on the trash mobs - if they're spreading their DoTs out then it'll be a lot easier to hold hate on even if they're rocking a relic)

All gear being equal, I agree with PiedPiper. A good Tank should never lose hate to similarly-geared DPS players (though occasionally they might bottom out their MP and TP trying to do so!!) and shouldn't lose hate to Healers apart from in exceptional circumstances. But the "starter" endgame dungeons (CM, Castrum, Ifrit, and especially WP) will often see wide variances in the type of gear people bring, and it can sometimes help to be a wee bit flexible... :)

..........

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

In that kind of situation, I probably would have spoken up in party chat with something along the lines of: "OK guys, let Black Mage Evilwizardington have his fun. {Manawall} {Tank} {You can have this}."

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Tried to laugh it off with a "Nice tanking, SoandSo" and his reply was "someone had to tank that". He pulled the same thing on the second boss and died at least once. After that he started bitching that he had to use only Blizzard I for the entire dungeon because any casting of Fire would immediately put him at #1 on threat no matter how much of a lead the two tanks had. Since then I give one warning and let them die afterward. I'd rather keep one DPS alive and take more time to complete the dungeon than run around fighting someone for hate because they're battling an imaginary boss in their deluded minds.

oh dont worry, now we can only bane 3 whole monsters. Thanks SE

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

Tried to laugh it off with a "Nice tanking, SoandSo" and his reply was "someone had to tank that". He pulled the same thing on the second boss and died at least once. After that he started bitching that he had to use only Blizzard I for the entire dungeon because any casting of Fire would immediately put him at #1 on threat no matter how much of a lead the two tanks had. Since then I give one warning and let them die afterward. I'd rather keep one DPS alive and take more time to complete the dungeon than run around fighting someone for hate because they're battling an imaginary boss in their deluded minds.

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The BLM probably would not have had this issue if he waited to go all out a few seconds to let the tank build enmity.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

oh dont worry, now we can only bane 3 whole monsters. Thanks SE

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It was always like that.

One of the bigger problems is, most tanks don't know how to tank. I'll run 3 or 4 wp/ak runs a day a week, always pugging a tank, and I have a friend healer who is very good who can keep me up when I become the tank. The reason, Tank pulls 3 mobs, I target his mob, Miasma, Bio 2, Bio, Lightning, Bane, Shadow Flare, the other two mobs come running after me and then I end up tanking the last of the trash. Tank yells, "Focus on my target", I say back, "Learn to tank, if you can't tank and hold agro through 1 rotation, then you need to learn to play" Boss mobs, generally speaking first AK boss, I end up tanking the priest, and kiting the golems (sometimes the white mage has to kit the golems though) while tank can't get agro.. really? When I try and go all out, I can pull all the mobs off him, it's just sad, 1 rotation and I have the agro?

As a MNK main, who also has experience tanking and playing SMN at 50, let me chime in with my 2 cents here.

I agree that hate isn't the easiest thing when you've got a ST-focused MNK and an AoE focused SMN/BLM as DPS. Typically in this scenario, it's more so a problem of communication really.

Just due to how the skill setup is on SMN, you'd want them to be making use of Shadow Flare and Bane whenever they can. The amount of DPS gain they provide is quite significant, just due to how Bane works (off GCD, spreads DoT damage that is alrdy good on a ST to 2 other targets ).

The thing is, typically when the party makeup is not one that is particularly AoE favoring (ie. no SMN in party) then it is better for DPS to burn down 1 target at a time unless there are a large number of mobs on the tank (ie. more than 2-3). This is often due to high priority targets being present, and also making the tank's life easier, faster.

That being said, with a SMN in party in order to make full use of their DPS, as a MNK I typically take a more AoE approach. This involves me using my Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes on various targets, and spreading my DPS through either Rockbreaker, or temporarily focusing on the target with the highest HP to bring it down to the same HP level as the rest of the mobs.

The issue here is one of communication and everyone being on the same page as a team. Every DPS can't simply do as they like and then yell at the tank for not holding hate. The tank is responsible for holding hate within a reasonable strategy. The reasonable strategy doesn't ever need to involve DPS holding back. It may, however, involve how DPS select their targets and where they aim their damage.

I agree, tanking also involves knowledge of the other classes skills and experience using them. Really wish more people would venture out and try more classes. There are so many instances where people sleep/separate or don't aoe aggro when a summoner is in the group which drastically hurts the potential of the class.

The problem is more so people like yourself, who lack the ability to think of anyone other than yourself.

Do you know why a tank would ask you to NOT spread your dots? Because it is almost impossible to hold high single target threat AND medium AOE threat at the same time.

So likely what is happening is you are doing your SMN thing spreading your dots, and someone else is following the kill order doing max single target dps.

They can likely aoe also, maybe not as well as your smn dots, but they can do it.

So the tanks either asks the single target dps to aoe, or he asks you to single target. Either way one of you is doing something they are not designed to do.

This is multiplied by the fact that lazy SMNs do not micro manage pets onto the focus target and do not focus the correct target with single target spells after they finish spreading their dots.

Play other classes and learn the roles of everyone in your party, then maybe you will become decent.

I see that I have wasted my time regardless, as you have nothing leveled to 50, and all the so called experience you have is likely in dungeons via DF.

I don't understand why anybody would need to tell DPS to stop AEing. Even if you had someone doing high dps to a single target, that DPS can just not be retarded and actually swap targets once their hate was creeping up. In all scenarios it's more efficient to AE trash in dungeons and it's certainly not "close to impossible" to manage hate between 1 person AEing and 1 person single targeting. Maybe you're just using tanking DL accessories and have really low str/crit or don't have relic+1? I don't know.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

It is almost completely impossible for a paladin (not sure about warriors) to hold sustained max AoE (esp with thunder Dotting as well) vs a relic+1 summoner.

The damage numbers are just too high.

So...I mean, people need to remember that they're working in a team here.

You are not the best dps in the world, you aren't proving anything by baning all the time.

If your tank wants you to stop, stop! What do you get by antagonizing your group lol. The point is to get through whatever run you're doing, and especially new tanks or pug tanks or people you haven't worked with all have their own idea of how they want to play the game.

So yes, the whining does need to stop, and it is YOUR whining.

Your team is a team. Work with them. If you're refusing to cooperate, you are the problem, regardless of how fast or how much damage you think you do.

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I was gonna say something , but pretty much this ^

I'm with Mujaki2, only way a Summoner will pull agro is if the Summoner far out gears the tank. I've played with both Paladins and Warriors that have no problem keeping AoE agro and single target agro. If your gear is causing issues then there are other things you can do such as changing target or just stop using Shadow Flare and Miasma II. You could even equip a few older pieces of gear to reduce your overall damage. That Relic +1 can be a massive issue in places like WP if the tank also doesn't have his relic. Either way though the tank should be able to handle booth single target and AoE dps. If he can't then he needs to learn to do his class. The only way he might not be able to do it is gear and then that falls to the dps to make adjustments accordingly.

As a healer, I would rather see a DPS taking damage by grabbing aggro cause of high DPS than from standing in crap. One I will cure you through, the other you get a chance or 2, then you die. When I play my tank, I pull mobs, Flash, Flash, and every 10 seconds or so flash again (I have a rotation but I would have to be sitting in game to look at my bars to remember it lol). It seems to work up through and including Stone Vigil (tank is only 41). It is rare a DPS will steal aggro and even rarer that the healer does. Again, I say this not even having tanked anthing past 41 - so grain of salt would seem to apply.

Lots of whining and flames on this thread, but there are also some interesting things buried in amongst it that I wish more people were aware of. Let's see if I can state plainly...

Fact1: Summoners are able to increase their overall damage output by having multiple DoTs going on different targets.

Fact2: Tanks must act differently depending on how much damage is hitting the various targets if they want to hold agro.

Fact3: If one DPS does heavy damage to a single target while other DPS does as much damage to multiple targets as possible, then there may be a situation where impossible for tank to hold agro on all targets. There just is no set of actions that results in all targets staying on tank. Tank has to choose between losing primary target or the other target(s).

Fact4: If there is a gear difference like tank weapon & offensive stats lower level than DPS, then there becomes less and less room for error on tank part. If bad enough, agro loss is guaranteed at some point or another (unless DPS holds back).

Fact5: I've met many people that are tunnel visioned on what they think is the "right" way to do things. Commonly that means mark targets 1, 2, 3 etc and single target DPS in that order. That's a reliable basic method, but it is quite possible to do "better" (see above). Requires communication and open minds to be able to choose and use different tactics.


A few anecdotes as well... I'm 50 WAR/PLD/WHM/BLM so far. Have done dungeons leveling and after on all of them. I think the permissions are right so that achievements on lodestone character are visible. You can go look up the Dungeon Siege IV achievement (300 instanced dungeons completed).

As WAR with Relic+1 when I do something like AK (trash mobs to kill), I have yet to see a situation where Summoner + other DPS made it impossible to hold agro. Like "Fact3" above, except my agro has been enough to overcome the worst anyone has thrown at me. Back when I was swinging ilvl55 weapon, that situation did actually occur. Worse is when you get BRD running Foe Requiem and a good BLM who isn't holding back -- that I actually found impossible to hold off BLM agro consistently. PLD I actually haven't played as much as WAR, but back when I was leveling up through the dungeons never really had any situations where impossible to hold agro on multiple targets.

As WHM and BLM, have seen wide variety of tanks. Some of them could handle holding agro when multiple targets taking damage, some could not (bad tanks). The lower level the dungeon, the more likely that you'll get one who hasn't learned to play yet. Please don't be the PLD that doesn't know what Flash is. Or the one that casts exactly 1 Flash and lets 2 targets hit the healer some seconds later. Next step up from those is the tank that thinks the only way to play is focus primary target & just enough agro on secondary targets to keep it off healer.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The issue here is one of communication and everyone being on the same page as a team. Every DPS can't simply do as they like and then yell at the tank for not holding hate. The tank is responsible for holding hate within a reasonable strategy. The reasonable strategy doesn't ever need to involve DPS holding back. It may, however, involve how DPS select their targets and where they aim their damage.

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The reasonable strategy should also involve some discretion and common sense on the part of the DPS as well. If your tank is still in the process of gearing up and you notice them in AF and using some Grand Company weapon or something decent off the AH then it wouldn't hurt to taper back your output to help them out instead of playing as if your tank is wearing AF2/coil drops with a relic+1 weapon. Threat in this game isn't the same as other games since the loss of enmity to anyone is a very real and ever present situation in this game, especially in multi-target scenarios in dungeons. Even weaving Rage of Halone combos through the pack, spamming flash in between, using Circle of Scorn on cooldown, and hitting provoke on a target when I do lose threat I'll still manage to lose hate because the enmity system in XIV is fairly tight in the AoE department and only the tanks seem to be paying attention to threat.

Single-target I mostly only have issues when someone (usually one of those fire-flinging, nuke-happy, robed fools) gets it in their head that one shield lob is enough threat to blow every cooldown and start spamming fire until they're out of mana. I pray for adds on some bosses because it means their damage on the boss stops for a period giving me some time to build up a sizeable lead for a while. Honestly I think WAR and PLD threat values need a larger multiplier just for more breathing room when gear disparity is present, and it wouldn't hurt to alter a few ability mechanics to help with threat (Circle DoT lasting as long as the ability cooldown, Flash maybe off the GCD, additional effect of increased enmity on combo starters Fast Blade/Heavy Swing, etc).

I play both PLD and SMN at 50. If a SMN is spreading dots , its really not that difficult to hold aoe threat while burning a single target. Is it more cumbersome and skill intensive for a tank? Yes. But I personally enjoy the challenge . I know what youre thinking.... Its so damn hard to flash and cycle through targets and cast a variation of abilities to hold threat. Really not hard. The problem is most tanks are too lazy to put forward effort in these situations or theyre just that damn bad.

The only time where I see threat being a problem, as stated above, is if the SMN is extremely geared and very good at the class ( which the majority are not.)

My turn 5 tanks cannot hold aggro if I spread dots and multi dot thunder on them/ and shadowflare on the ground...either both our tanks suck or what pandabear states is true. One remedy of course is using quelling strikes which summoners have access too.

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Originally Posted by KroLeXz

My turn 5 tanks cannot hold aggro if I spread dots and multi dot thunder on them/ and shadowflare on the ground...either both our tanks suck or what pandabear states is true. One remedy of course is using quelling strikes which summoners have access too.

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Your tanks suck, because mine have no problem.

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Originally Posted by KroLeXz

My turn 5 tanks cannot hold aggro if I spread dots and multi dot thunder on them/ and shadowflare on the ground...either both our tanks suck or what pandabear states is true. One remedy of course is using quelling strikes which summoners have access too.

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I was referring to the spreading of dots in regular dungeons, which is what the OP was about (at least i hope, i pray to God he hasnt been asked to stop spreading dots in a coil group :)) If youre in turn 5, chances are youre very geared, hence the last sentence of my previous post.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

It is almost completely impossible for a paladin (not sure about warriors) to hold sustained max AoE (esp with thunder Dotting as well) vs a relic+1 summoner.

The damage numbers are just too high.

So...I mean, people need to remember that they're working in a team here.

You are not the best dps in the world, you aren't proving anything by baning all the time.

If your tank wants you to stop, stop! What do you get by antagonizing your group lol. The point is to get through whatever run you're doing, and especially new tanks or pug tanks or people you haven't worked with all have their own idea of how they want to play the game.

So yes, the whining does need to stop, and it is YOUR whining.

Your team is a team. Work with them. If you're refusing to cooperate, you are the problem, regardless of how fast or how much damage you think you do.

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Well said.

As a scholar, I spread my Dots AND use shadow flare.

Never had any issues at all.

Occasionally the tank doesn't hold the group, and I have a mob run at me, but its nothing to worry about.

Honestly, AK/CM/WP are easy, and doing as much damage as possible helps the speed of the grinding.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

As a paladin, its your job to never, ever, for any reason, ever, under any circumstance, need to ask a dps to slow down. You can tactically call for quelling, but they should still be able to dps full power. If they are able to put the damage up, you should be able to keep up.

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I don't agree with that. Being a part of the team, it's better to ask, communicate, and plan out how things work.
NEVER, EVER ASSUME YOUR TEAMMATES WOULD DO THINGS YOU EXPECT THEM TO. So if a DD is generating too much hate for the tank to keep up, ask them to slow down. It's critical and it'll make things done faster without unnecessary hassles(argument, rage-quit, etc.)

A pld's job is to hold hates and not letting anyone take hits. If asking ppl to slow down would help avoiding them being hits. That's a wise thing to do. Because they are not supposed to take hits but you. But of course, everyone needs to know their job skills and be prepared well for the fight.

I think it really again depends on your tank's gear and such.

People whining both ways need to realize its a team effort, is what I'm going for.

Recently, tanks that are good at tabbing and using flash have no problem with spreading all my DoTs =D

I haven't done coil yet (classes are killing my free time T.T) so I don't have any specific advice for yall, but I just meant that the general attitude of this thread should change to either

• Have more communication (aka telling your tanks you like to bane)
• Have more advice (like telling tanks how to hold threat)
• And realizing gear disparities.

If all you're doing is multi dotting and then spamming Ruin on the main target and you pull, the tank needs to work on their threat.

Doing AK as a SCH (Ifrit Weapon, not quite full DL), I can get full DL'd tanks (some with relic weapons) and I pull off them like clockwork. Drop shadowflare for the slow + dot, > triple dot main target > Bane > Aero each one > Ruin II each one if a Warrior for the blind. Around when I get to Ruin II the non primary targets will pull if my tank is mediocre. Heaven forbid I actually cast a heal during all of that.

Too many people playing tanks play them with a dps mindset and just tunnel vision the primary target. By 50 most of them learned to at least Flash/Overpower once or twice at the start of the pull, but beyond that many stopped advancing their tank skills. They're also not gonna learn if people baby them and play poorly (don't multi dot when the class is designed for it) just to compensate for the tank not doing their job.

Gear is almost never the issue in MMOs, as much as people like to shout for gearchecks to horrifically outgear content. Better play will solve over 95% of issues that come up.

Is this thread for real?

I mean, maybe I played too much WoW in the olden days of aggro yore, but I remember an old saying:
"If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault
If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault
If the DPS dies, it's their own ****in fault".

I mean, this is basic Holy Trinity stuff. This is true in WoW, RIFT, AoC, SWTOR, so many others and is true in FFXIV.

It's not the tank's fault if you're terrible and can't match your DPS to his hate output.

It's only slightly different with overhealing causing aggro; the healer has to be aware too.

Yes, the tank's skill is a factor. But guess what? You continually ripping hate and making their job even harder is YOUR fault.

If summoners are not spreading dots I don't want them in my group.

signed: Tank

Seriously people... Smn is easily the worst single target trash killer in the game. Why gimp the heck out of them when they could be doing great damage by hitting everything. Smn like mnk doesn't have burst threat issues so tanks should be keeping things under control. If not someone is failing... (see tank)

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Originally Posted by KroLeXz

My turn 5 tanks cannot hold aggro if I spread dots and multi dot thunder on them/ and shadowflare on the ground...either both our tanks suck or what pandabear states is true. One remedy of course is using quelling strikes which summoners have access too.

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Your tanks need to get full Penta meld iLvL70 HQ gryphonskin acc. for their right side slots. Our tank's DPS went from ~70 to ~130 after the switch.

i have read funny comment there, it's quite easy to keep the hate from the summoner, even the one with relic+1. even in paladin...

if you only use flash you have it wrong...
generally i start the fight like this.
- Flashx3, that give me time to begin to build hate against the focus target.
- i do Fast blade> savage blade on the focus target, do rage of halone on another target.
- come back to the focus target and redo fast blade> savage blade on the focus target rage of halone on another target, by security i send a flash at this time.

after it's simply check the hate bar of each target, but is not that hard... you simply need to work with your skill!

Flash is not the only way to do multi-tanking...

This is how it works for me.

Pulls 3 mobs, I focus on main target. Miasma, Bio 2, Bio, Bane, Lightning, Shadow flare, tab, Lightning, tab Lightning.
Now if I'm pulling the OTHER 2 non focus to me because of this, the tank is not doing his/her job. If I pull 1 of them, the tank is doing his/her job but just can't keep up with me which is ok, if I don't pull either one, the tank is a great tank, let's add him/her to my friend's list and invite him/her to coil.

I've had to in a few dungeons, use Titan because the tank could not hold agro on more than one target, so I send Titan at the last focus target, and have him tank that one, and I focus on that one, spread my dots to the others and everything always works.

As a summoner in random dungeons, don't be afraid to call titan, and if the tank complains, just tell him/her "My dps is too high for you to hold full threat, so this way you can focus better and the healer and myself won't die"

Also if you are pulling threat off the tank, odds are the healer will pull threat for healing agro too, so again Titan keeps the group alive and still moving quickly.

Not spreading dots really gimps the class but I'll stop and ask if the tank is having trouble with aggro.

So.... all i've heard throughout the majority of this thread is, 'I don't need to be a team player, just do your job so I can do mine'.

GG lol

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Originally Posted by Hiroradius

snip.

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This is exactly what I've been doing, rotation is slightly different but same concept. Luckily I always run with my +1 pld friend so I don't pull hate off of him.

If people put this much effort irl youd all be rich married to super models driving expensive cars.

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Originally Posted by Cousinjimmy

Your tanks need to get full Penta meld iLvL70 HQ gryphonskin acc. for their right side slots. Our tank's DPS went from ~70 to ~130 after the switch.

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What should they meld? This is interesting to see, do they meld crit/det? Or something else?

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

What should they meld? This is interesting to see, do they meld crit/det? Or something else?

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Crit/Parry from what I recall. A warrior in my FC has done full pentamelds on his jewelry and does great DPS. (for a tank) He can out-DPS most Relic/DL DPS class in WPSR, it is only when they get Relic + 1 and some i90 that they more often pull ahead.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Crit/Parry from what I recall

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If we're talking about the HQ Gryphonskin Gear then it's +Vit primarily (cap is +10, so need a Mark IV and a Mark III Materia), then +Parry (cap is +12, so need two Mark IIIs).
Last meld is +Det on the rings [cap is 8, a Mark IV gives you +6] and +Crit on the Neck, Ear and Wrist [cap is 12, a Mark IV gives you +9]
(Technically the Ear gear isn't Gryphonskin but "Rosegold Earcuffs"... however the stats are largely the same as the other Gryphonskin gear)

Last time I ran the numbers, effectively compared to the standard i90 +Vit accessory setup it trades 5% of your HP to raise your DPS by 20%, Parry strength by 1-2% and Parry rate by 2-3%.
Realistically since you can only Block/Parry non-magic damage it's only really worth it if (i) You're running without a Healer or (ii) You're willing to trade some survivability for slightly higher DPS and/or enmity.

Once you're fully geared in Allagan/Myth armor, it can become quite attractive to HQ Gryphonskin it up for either a PLD or a WAR... but bear in mind it's VERY expensive and only gives you i70 gear - there could well be i80 or i90 meldable gear out in the near future!! :)

Yeah, definitely Vit, not sure how I forgot about that. Vit/Crit/Parry, depending on the slot.