SCH DPS > SMN DPS?

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Originally Posted by LostCody

Bane is something a sch cant have access too and is even better if your spread with contagion,the ability too spread that amount of damage with only needing too setup on 1 target not only does a ton of damage but also lets you..yes spam more ruins then you could if you had too dot everyone one of them individually.
so any questions?

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Actually yes. Did you just say a SCH does not get Bane?


EDIT:
As for ACN vs SMN. I tested a while back and ACN dots > SMN dots because of Aero. Carbunkle was ~20 damage less at the time than Garuda for their 3 second skill. Back when I had ~404 int on my ACN, ACN Dots were ~100 more damage a tick, more so with Internal Release and RS, saw dot crits in the area of ~500 a tick. I do not have Blood for Blood yet, too lazy to get 2 more levels on DRG.
Honestly I wish SMN could sub CNJ for aero. Note the tool tip says SMN can use it. Aero constant up time should be greater than anything RS can provide. I would honestly Prefer Blood for Blood as it has a lower cool down.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Lol? Aero is going to do ~20 DPS. Pets are 60(min) to 90~100(for me)



And then you realize ACN has no access to relic/AF2, can't realistically get the Allagan tome(so BiS is Garuda/Titan), has 15 less base INT, no Garuda(Contagion, mostly)/Spur/Fester/Enkindle. Also, you lose Swiftcast as a CCS because you need the 5 slots for CDs/Thunder/Aero.

ACN is probably lower, or equal, to SCH.

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Aero is more then 20 DPS, i'm pretty sure anyway. I never apply it by itself so im not sure how much it ticks for. And yes TBF you do lose out on all of your AF2, BUT on paper it is possible to be in full allagan gear as a Arcanist. And since Shining Emerald equals Contagion (Although if you wanna get nitty gritty Shining Emerald is better since it'll extend all your DoTs while under more Offensive CDs making Blood for blood a permanent effect as well as Internal Release) You only lose 15 int from your base job stats.

So all you really lose out on is Fester (Which hurts) Spur (kinda sucks but not a huuuuge deal you still get rouse at least) and Enkindle (which is pretty terrible in terms of DPS, great in burst situations obviously tho)

But you gain a perma 20% dmg boost to your DoTs, as well as a perma 20% crit increase to all your DoTs. An extra DoT in Aero which falls under the before mentioned buffs. Those two factors may also make Miasma II worth using as well but don't feel like doing the math on that one.

You also don't lose Swiftcast, in fact you gain 5 more cross class abilities since you lack a job crystal meaning you could bring:

Aero, Thunder, Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Swift cast, Raging Strikes, Quelling Strike, Stoneskin, Sure cast or w/e they want. After the first 6 the others really don't matter.

I honestly think Arcanist will be better then Summoner when all is said and done. Especially once more classes are added to better make use of those extra 4 cross class skills.

EDIT: Its not a perma BFB and IR idk why i thought it was. Its damn close tho.

Aero will be ~20-25 DPS, maybe 30.

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Originally Posted by Swick

I honestly think Arcanist will be better then Summoner when all is said and done. Especially once more classes are added to better make use of those extra 4 cross class skills.

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I will "agree"(until we can really parse things) if you have full allagan/ilvl 70 crafted+allagan tome. This is iffy, though, because RS in total is about a ~3% DPS gain. BFB will be a little bit more, and I think IR would be about equal. Fester is 55-60 DPS. Even a 10% gain won't make up that difference.


Yes, I realized you can still get Swiftcast. I forgot Classes get double the CCS that Jobs do. I haven't been a class in forever. Thank you for pointing it out, though, if anyone is reading this and trying to theorycraft.

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Originally Posted by Swick

EDIT: Its not a perma BFB and IR idk why i thought it was. Its damn close tho.

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You could rotate the CDs and have perma-CD'd DoTs running. Almost. If only RS was 120s CD for everyone, and 90s for BRD/ARC. :(

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Aero will be ~20-25 DPS, maybe 30.
I will "agree"(until we can really parse things) if you have full allagan/ilvl 70 crafted+allagan tome. This is iffy, though, because RS in total is about a ~3% DPS gain. BFB will be a little bit more, and I think IR would be about equal. Fester is 55-60 DPS. Even a 10% gain won't make up that difference.

Yes, I realized you can still get Swiftcast. I forgot Classes get double the CCS that Jobs do. I haven't been a class in forever. Thank you for pointing it out, though, if anyone is reading this and trying to theorycraft.

You could rotate the CDs and have perma-CD'd DoTs running. Almost. If only RS was 120s CD for everyone, and 90s for BRD/ARC. :(

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Yea Aero hits for ~100 on my SCH, and ticks for about 50 so ~25 dps is accurate (mostly DL and no i90 mind you.) Although for the whole Arcanist vs SMN thing its still a pure DPS increase and at the least would make up the difference between Energy drain vs Fester, or close too. Especially since aero too would be hit by shining emerald/DPS buffs.

If you rotated i'm positive you could always have one buff up at all times once you account for Shining Emerald. Maybe not on Aero or Bio since they have base short durrations but the longer ones for sure. Either way its something to think about in the future. And imo would be shameful if true.

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Originally Posted by Swick

Yea Aero hits for ~100 on my SCH, and ticks for about 50 so ~25 dps is accurate (mostly DL and no i90 mind you.) Although for the whole Arcanist vs SMN thing its still a pure DPS increase and at the least would make up the difference between Energy drain vs Fester, or close too. Especially since aero too would be hit by shining emerald/DPS buffs.

If you rotated i'm positive you could always have one buff up at all times once you account for Shining Emerald. Maybe not on Aero or Bio since they have base short durrations but the longer ones for sure. Either way its something to think about in the future. And imo would be shameful if true.

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Its been said already, its the way the Job system work, especially for SMN (and BLM), it adds very little above the base Class.. but even removes options for good cross class skills. In the SMN's case, Arcanist (due to extra skills) could actually OUT-DPS it while using Energy Drain for extra MP.

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Originally Posted by Swick

Energy drain vs Fester, or close too. Especially since aero too would be hit by shining emerald/DPS buffs.

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Yeah, that's why I "agree."

The limiting factor is gear, though. BiS for ACN, realistically, is Titan/Garuda/Crafted Book.

One word....fester.

Your dmg is now far superior to a scholars.....forget spur and enkindle >.>(end sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Yeah, that's why I "agree."

The limiting factor is gear, though. BiS for ACN, realistically, is Titan/Garuda/Crafted Book.

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ATM yes, but eventually the allagan book will become realistic. And thats when u gotta start wondering.

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Originally Posted by Devaking55

One word....fester.

Your dmg is now far superior to a scholars.....forget spur and enkindle >.>(end sarcasm)

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This isn't really true.

Fester over a minute is 900 potency, energy drain (not even counting its awesome mp bonus) is 450.

450 potency difference over a minute is around 7.5 pps difference.

With our base pps in the 90's, this is around an 8% dps boost.

Which is covered by cleric stance, just about.

It is the pet, and the pet ONLY, that pushes SMNs to be better. (oh and gear to an extent, since we dont' "waste" offpoints into piety...though I would love some more piety on my SMN D=)

People need to stop being hung up on fester. Its good, but its infrequent (relative) use and the fact its not something ridiculous like 1000 potency means its contribution is overstated.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Fester over a minute is 900 potency, energy drain (not even counting its awesome mp bonus) is 450.
450 potency difference over a minute.

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Energy Drain in Cleric Stance is 165 potency, 3 x a minute is 495 potency. Or, the difference of 405 potency versus using 3 x Fester.

Aero is 220 Potency in Cleric Stance. Minus Ruin for a GCD it becomes 140 potency extra over 18s, or ~3 dots per minute, or 140 x 3 = 420 potency over a minute advantage.

Energy Drain + Aero in Cleric Stance already equal to the difference of not having Fester. Then add Cleric Stance boosting the rest of the spells by 10% as well as Selene's aoe dps buff for the group...

im curious , why do you guys factor energy drain only on sch rotation and not on smn rotation

i usually put all dots on target (bio,bio II,Miasma,Miasma II,Thunder), then pop a fester, then right after i pop an energy drain. now i got some DL accesories, an HQ 4 melded(+12 crit + 4 determination) i55 book and fester +energy drain combo hit around 1k. if i get greedy and i double energy drain and lest say all crit, i could hit for 1.4k.

am i doing it wrong? should i not use energy drain as SMN?

I usually use energy drain only when I'm desperately low on mp. It just doesn't do enough damage to be worthwhile using. Why waste aetherflow charges on energy drain over fester?

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

im curious , why do you guys factor energy drain only on sch rotation and not on smn rotation

i usually put all dots on target (bio,bio II,Miasma,Miasma II,Thunder), then pop a fester, then right after i pop an energy drain. now i got some DL accesories, an HQ 4 melded(+12 crit + 4 determination) i55 book and fester +energy drain combo hit around 1k. if i get greedy and i double energy drain and lest say all crit, i could hit for 1.4k.

am i doing it wrong? should i not use energy drain as SMN?

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Energy drain just does less damage than fester. Fester is 300 potency, energy drain is 150.

Now, if you were running out of mp, it is a -marginal- increase (well, potentially more than marginal) to use energy drain instead.

Each energy drain is ~240 or so mp.

At worst, it will let you pump out ~3-4 ruins, which is more potency than the difference between fester and energy drain.

Since you should have a bard in your group (again, so much utility for casters, and the fact they ignored thunder when they mathed out summoner mana use), you shouldn't need to use energy drain.

Do NOT use energy drain if you are not running out of mana.

Back to talking about cleric stance:

Anyway selene's aura seems to reduce my cast times by around maybe .3 seconds? I think? I can't really remember.

Lets round that up to selene's bonus is 0.5 second cast time decrease (its lower than that, iirc).

In 3 minutes, you spend ~40 GCDs on DoT upkeep. With selene, thats 80 seconds spent, as opposed to ~100 seconds spent. However, its only up half the time, so lets split the difference and say half the DoTs are hasted, half not. So thats 90 seconds spent.

You now have 90 seconds to ruin. "normal" ruin would take you 36 ruins, but since we're half hasted, its 40.5, over the ~32 ruins baseline (w/o any hasting).

So you gain 8.5 ruins. However, you lose ~6 GCDs due to losing Garuda's contagion. So you only gain 2.5 ruins.

That's a total of about 200 potency, over 3 minutes.

Garuda pumps out close to 5544 potency over 3 minutes, not counting contagion.

Now, lets assume that you have exactly the same stats (you'll have lower) and that cleric stance is a pure 10% dps increase, since based on your thing its basically that if we take into consideration fester vs aero.

First of all you lose RS. RS is ~3% damage contribution. So your bonus is now 7%.

Summoners do a personal potency total of ~16709 over 3 minutes. Your 7% potency bonus is now ~1170 potency.

So your total potency bonus is 1370. Garuda is 5544.

You lose a personal potency of ~4174 over 3 minutes, or 23pps or close to 20% dps loss.

Lets assume, that we have perfect caster dps, pure hardcasting, so receives full effect of selene's buff whenever its up.

Lets also assume this caster does the same total potency as our baseline summoner, because that way everyone does the same damage.

This caster does 22253 potency over 3 minutes, aka over 72 GCDs, and ~309 potency per GCD

With haste up half the time, he instead has 81 GCDs. He now gains ~2781 potency.

So in this perfect scenario, scholar would be more group dps if you have 3 casters in your team, and the other casters are all BLMs.

I want to have you realize how unrealistic this "upper bound" is, and even if so you would have to have close to an all BLM party for it to be beneficial.

If they were all summoners you would have to have about 6 other Summoners in your party to break even, obviously not going to happen.

It is "viable" I suppose, but pretty awkward in practice I would assume.

oh also Enhanced Pet Actions.. thoes that work with SCH? since the description says on damage. making SMN have the change to cast faster and doing more dps?

ITT: Lots of people who have no clue what the fuck they are talking about.

The damage from the actual character itself is pretty similar. Where the Summoner pulls ahead in a clear and obvious way is with the consideration of pet damage. Summoners pets can do a nice job of supplementing the summoner's damage. Scholar's pets allow the summoner to spend more time with their foot on the pedal.

While leveling I would often pop into Cleric Stance and drop some supporting DoTs or Ruin onto a few targets & see slightly larger numbers rolling off as compared to the base Summoner itself, but there's no way I would keep up with the Summoner+Pet combination. Mind Stacking + Cleric stance is nothing to sneeze at, but a Scholar is not a true DPS. It's a very solid hybrid that can perform quite well in several areas, though not necessarily the best in any one area.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

It is "viable" I suppose, but pretty awkward in practice I would assume.

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Selene buffs casters half the time, but it also buffs melee/bards the other half the time. It also spot heals awesome. Would have less strain on the healers, which in turn allow them to pop into cleric stance and blast off a few dots more often. These are all things which adds to the complexity in grp play.

While your maths is fair, SCH in dps mode do about 20% less dps than SMN (its not much as people thought!), these grp benefits could well exceed the personal loss in dps.

The skill speed buff is currently bugged and does almost nothing.

At least when I last tested.

Again, it is viable, but awkward as you will need to be able to coordinate with burn phases with selene.

Once you can get pet macros working I can imagine it being much better in that you can force heal with mouseovers w/o losing your primary target.

The biggest "bonus" i think that sch dps will get over smn is energy drain instead of fester, and the absolutely massive mana pools (at least 30% higher than SMN).

Which allow you to multidot with impunity.

The fact that smn gets no DoT damage bonus is retarded, and the current way they have jobs vs classes set up is not going to last, I'm betting.

Because this is the only split class available atm, and the damage numbers should be NOWHERE near each other, and yet they are.

Are all of these scholars forgetting that you need accuracy? Your gear has no accuracy. If you buy Vanya, you're wasting materia just to get somewhat kinda close to the cap, where I can spend that materia on +Crit or +Det or other DD stats.

People overrated Selene, her sspd buff is mediocre at best.

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Originally Posted by Troggy

Are all of these scholars forgetting that you need accuracy? Your gear has no accuracy. If you buy Vanya, you're wasting materia just to get somewhat kinda close to the cap, where I can spend that materia on +Crit or +Det or other DD stats.

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You only need accuracy in Coil. I don't think anyone's suggesting that SCH are viable DPS there.

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Originally Posted by Pentt

People overrated Selene, her sspd buff is mediocre at best.

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Erm, it cuts my SCH's GCD by .15, and my SS is relatively low compared to the skill speed/spell speed of the geared DPS I run with.

So, napkin math, but assuming it's a blanket .15 drop in GCD, you're looking at about a 7-8% increase in skill usage rate? So, if we consider the buffs alternate every 30 seconds, it's about a 4% DPS increase, imaging you have equal numbers of DoW and DoM classes?

Again, napkin math, but that's like giving everyone a Relic + 2. And that's essentially "free".

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

You only need accuracy in Coil. I don't think anyone's suggesting that SCH are viable DPS there.

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If you don't get the gear that will potentially have ACC on it(iLVL 70 crafted), you're still going to be behind because all healer gear has piety, and one offensive substat.

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

Erm, it cuts my SCH's GCD by .15, and my SS is relatively low compared to the skill speed/spell speed of the geared DPS I run with.

So, napkin math, but assuming it's a blanket .15 drop in GCD, you're looking at about a 7-8% increase in skill usage rate? So, if we consider the buffs alternate every 30 seconds, it's about a 4% DPS increase, imaging you have equal numbers of DoW and DoM classes?

Again, napkin math, but that's like giving everyone a Relic + 2. And that's essentially "free".

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Increase in skill usage is not a direct correlation to DPS. That is, using more skills doesn't give a defined amount of DPS. You have to find what you're using the extra skill usage on.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

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Even when my SCH was undergeared, I never missed outside of Coil.

And sure, like I said, napkin math. But Selene is the games only support-haste of any type, and the skills are more useful than Eos's, which are completely unnecessary unless you're severely undergeared for a fight.

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

Even when my SCH was undergeared, I never missed outside of Coil.

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I was referring to not having a second substat. DPS gear has 2 of det/crit/spell speed. Healer gear has piety and then one of det/crit/spell speed.

So unless you get the gear that will have ACC anyways, you're locked out of a second DPS substat and are even further behind.