Please nerf Holy.

How about you play the game and don't ask for nerfs for when you wanna try and break the game. Speed runs are not created by the developers, and they have already shown they will make changes to stop them. Which IMO they should. I would rather a fun game then one we try to break so we can gear faster. How about enjoying the journey and not worry about how fast you can finish.

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Actually Holy has a 1 second animation, so WHM do damage every 4 seconds, not 3

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I'm aware, but you can still begin priming a new Holy while the first one is slowly ascending to the heavens, embraced by the Valkyries of yore, preparing to unleash holy devastation and purge the land of unearthly afflictions, hence the every 3 seconds assumption. :p

(Assuming you targetted the comment at me)

But yeah, whatever. I'm sure people will agree Holy is pretty damn good damage. However, failing to see its painfully obvious drawbacks and then crying for nerfs... <_< Sigh, I dunno.

Scholars are fine DPS wise and so are WHM.

Come on guys! Stop with this which class is better nerf this nerf that its not about who's better its about the fun. Stop asking for ridiculous things like this both classes has their strong and weak points just get over it and enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

Give me insta shields, A pet that heals for me and infinite mana and then you can nerf my holy.

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Sounds pretty OP to me

Are you serious? If you're overgeared at that point, your fairy can solo heal WP by itself. Put up dots, Bane, Miasma II, and Shadowflare and BOOM, more dps than Holy. I prefer running WP/AK as my SCH over WHM because I spend the entire time dpsing in Cleric Stance.

WP with a SCH:

Cleric Stance. Miasma II everything as the tank runs past. Swiftcast-Shadowflare, Rouse and place the Fairy as the tank stops. With the tank targeted, cast Bio II, Miasma and Bio while force-casting Embrace and using 1-2 Lustrates if needed. Bane, then switch out of Cleric Stance and heal.

Congratulations, you're doing as much if not more damage as Holy.

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Originally Posted by Ranzarock

Are you serious? If you're overgeared at that point, your fairy can solo heal WP by itself. Put up dots, Bane, Miasma II, and Shadowflare and BOOM, more dps than Holy. I prefer running WP/AK as my SCH over WHM because I spend the entire time dpsing in Cleric Stance.

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People are talking about the WP speedruns where you pull the entire dungeon in 5 big packs. The Fairy cannot solo-heal that.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

If you've been running Wanderer's Palace as of late, you'll know how much better WHM is compared to SCH.

SCH needs a decent direct damage AoE. SCH DPS is far too DoT heavy, meaning you can't dance in-and-out of Cleric Stance.

What they need to do is simply turn Holy into a DoT.

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Hey guess what? I added you to my ignore list.

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

Give me insta shields, A pet that heals for me and infinite mana and then you can nerf my holy.

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SCH's don't have instant shields, nor are they particularly powerful tbh. Adlo is if it crits but that isn't something that is reliable. As far as mana, yes SCH have very strong mana recovery but tbh I haven't really been caught oom as a WHM before the fight ended unless other healer died so I can't really see how that's really all that relevant.

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Originally Posted by Mireillechan

One day people will learn to ask for a buff for their jobs instead of demanding nerf for other jobs because they feel they are underpowered...

Or maybe not :o

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It is always always always better to nerf an outlier then to buff everyone else to that lvl. Consider that if one or two classes are too far ahead of the pack and they buff ALL the other classes, they then have to buff the health and dmg of all lvl 50 content and all that is asking for is to introduce bugs or recreate a new set of outliers that would then need to have the cycle repeated. Nerfing on the other hand would be much simpler as you would bring that one or two classes that are too high back in line with the other classes where they should be. Both would achieve balance, but one is safer and easier and the other is far riskier.


All that said, I am not calling for a nerf to Holy. That thing is a mana whore of a spell.

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Originally Posted by Ranzarock

Are you serious? If you're overgeared at that point, your fairy can solo heal WP by itself. Put up dots, Bane, Miasma II, and Shadowflare and BOOM, more dps than Holy. I prefer running WP/AK as my SCH over WHM because I spend the entire time dpsing in Cleric Stance.

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Probably doesn't have a SCH :x

i'm getting tired of these scholar vs white mage threads and the over-exaggerating both sides say about that others' abilities

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Originally Posted by hamsteak

i'm getting tired of these scholar vs white mage threads and the over-exaggerating both sides say about that others' abilities

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Yeah I know the community is new and still growing, but it is off to a lack luster start for sure.

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Originally Posted by Ranzarock

Are you serious? If you're overgeared at that point, your fairy can solo heal WP by itself. Put up dots, Bane, Miasma II, and Shadowflare and BOOM, more dps than Holy. I prefer running WP/AK as my SCH over WHM because I spend the entire time dpsing in Cleric Stance.

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Now to everyone else that says we need something to make us better or the WHM needs nerfed... NO we are fine they are fine. Just fix it so that I don't have to do some kind of backward macro thing to make my pet not burn cool downs.
I am aware of Obey, but that doesn't stop the pet from using her AOE heal.

Finally if you are good at playing a SCH and I do mean actually good, you can't just think your good, then you can speed run WP without issue. You can weave in and out of Cleric stance just like a WHM. Cleric Stance Instance Shadow flair, lustrate a few times if needed, Rouse, what ever to keep the tank up. Cast your dots spread em and pop back out. If your dots wear off hop back in.

The way I look at the difference between WHM and SCH... SCH requires more buttons to = the same job. That is pretty much every dot class that has ever existed. If you didn't know that, then I'm sorry. :( But now you know... "And Knowing is Half the Battle!!!" GI-JOE!!!!

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

This is not true. Gear does alter pet stats, and by quite a bit. The pet snapshots your stats when it's summoned. Take off some MND gear, summon the Fairy, and its Embrace is noticeably weaker.

Also, Cleric Stance, just like Raging Strikes, doesn't alter Shadow Flares damage.

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I am wrong and love being wrong!!

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Originally Posted by Nimb

Gear does not alter your pet heals ever... at all. Try it with a level 1 book and naked... same HP healed.

Cleric Stance Instance Shadow flair, lustrate a few times if needed, Rouse, what ever to keep the tank up.

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This is not true. Gear does alter pet stats, and by quite a bit. The pet snapshots your stats when it's summoned. Take off some MND gear, summon the Fairy, and its Embrace is noticeably weaker.

Also, Cleric Stance, just like Raging Strikes, doesn't alter Shadow Flares damage.

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Originally Posted by Nimb

Do you even play a scholar?
I am aware of Obey, but that doesn't stop the pet from using silence or AOE heal.

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Selene will not silence while in Obey. (Even if there is something to silence and it is using something silence-able) Eos's regen is a bug she shouldn't be using it but I think they made it so that Obey allows the faeries to use anything that heals thus WD goes off.

Huh? The OP is trolling . Drop it

Why I feel that SCH can do more damage than WHM in WP speedrun.

Pre-Aldo -> Tank pull 2-3mobs -> Eye for an eye/Sacred Soil -> Whispering Winds if need(but I usually use Selene) -> Aldo
-> Cleric Stance -> Shadow Flare -> Bio2 Miasma Bio1 -> Bane = BOOM!
Lustrate While building DoTs when needed

300potency for Embrace is very nice. It's like we can divide WHM's cure to heal 2 people at the same time.
AND pet can heal while we are in cleric stance and building up DoTs. Dual Casting XD.

Don't Talk about single target dps. I feel like i'm a DPS while at boss fight.

Bane can only spread to 3~4 targets from what I've seen (on both SCH and SMN), so you'd have to use multiple banes to dot the amount of mobs you'd be killing in WP speedruns. This is easily tested if you want to try it out yourself - just gather up 4+ mobs in the open world with Bio and then Bane them when they're clumped and you'll notice how there will always be a few that aren't dotted.

I have no idea if this is intended (bad tooltip info) or bane is just bugged.

guys..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wwzsPcNB4

that isn't doable with a scholar, that's what OP is referring to.

yes, I'm sure lots of scholars (myself included) drop bane'd dots on 1-2 packs at a time.

but you're not gonna match the dps/survivability that holy provides in a group setup to take advantage of it.. regardless of how you tailor it in the scholars favor.

there's a similar thread over on the tank forums about how "warriors can do everything a paladin can!!" ...except they can't do this either.

those ~10 minute WP runs require that specific setup, pld/whm/blm/brd

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Originally Posted by Vmage

guys..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wwzsPcNB4

that isn't doable with a scholar, that's what OP is referring to.

yes, I'm sure lots of scholars (myself included) drop bane'd dots on 1-2 packs at a time.

but you're not gonna match the dps/survivability that holy provides in a group setup to take advantage of it.. regardless of how you tailor it in the scholars favor.

there's a similar thread over on the tank forums about how "warriors can do everything a paladin can!!" ...except they can't do this either.

those ~10 minute WP runs require that specific setup, pld/whm/blm/brd

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This is a classic example of overgearing. Balancing because of this or trying to balance for this is foolhardy at best, and most of the time will result in breaking things for every other time.

This thread has to be troll... It just has to...

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Originally Posted by Vmage

that isn't doable with a scholar, that's what OP is referring to.

those ~10 minute WP runs require that specific setup, pld/whm/blm/brd

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Scholar can do it too, the speed run will just take a minute or two longer (I know, the horror).

The notion that a spell or class needs to be nerfed because of such a specific incidence making one class capable of doing things slightly faster than another is ridiculous. If anything, the BRD/BLM vs the rest of the dps discrepancy is far worse than the WHM vs SCH one in this instance. At least WHM vs SCH is just a small time difference, while most classes will struggle to put out anywhere near the same level of sustained AoE damage that a BLM can in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Never really had an issue.

Swiftcast -> Shadow Flare
Rouse fairy if needed
Cast DoTs then Bane
Miasma II if you feel like it

Don't even need to drop Cleric Stance since your fairy can do the job pretty easily and Lustrate is based on max HP.

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I did the same thing speed running WP today. I never go into Cleric Stance and still put out amazing dps.

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Originally Posted by COSMIC_RENEGADE

I did the same thing speed running WP today. I never go into Cleric Stance and still put out amazing dps.

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What !?!!!!!
Please nerf Shadow Flare :-) Please boost Holy....
ok, whole post needs closing down as it's obviously a troll on the whm - and not the first by the op.

lets change the entire game so a less than perfect group setup can farm an entry-level dungeon a little bit easier

tbh i'm not sure i get this thread.

holy is basically the strongest aoe in the game.

why are people acting like it's not?

i don't think it should be changed, but why are people pretending that sch has comparable aoe to whm?

i mean there's even a sch above me that's saying he's doing "amazing dps" while not in cleric stance.

if you're doing amazing dps, why not change to cleric stance and do 50% more dmg? too many buttons to press? or do you just like missing out of free damage?

i must be in bizaro world.

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Originally Posted by Tightpants

tbh i'm not sure i get this thread.

holy is basically the strongest aoe in the game.

why are people acting like it's not?

i don't think it should be changed, but why are people pretending that sch has comparable aoe to whm?

i mean there's even a sch above me that's saying he's doing "amazing dps" while not in cleric stance.

if you're doing amazing dps, why not change to cleric stance and do 50% more dmg? too many buttons to press? or do you just like missing out of free damage?

i must be in bizaro world.

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I wouldn't really post in this thread. I gave up on it. Most of the people here are CNJs, so the bias is almost palpable and a lot of them are just plain wrong or in denial.

The current state of farming in this game favours WHM over SCH by quite some margin simply due to Holy, whether people want to admit that, that's up to them, but some of the responses here are plain ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Tightpants

holy is basically the strongest aoe in the game.

why are people acting like it's not?

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Disagreeing Holy needs to be nerfed != saying Holy is weak.

Also best by what metric? It's a good AoE, but I doubt we'll see WHM getting invited as "AoE dps" any time soon.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

I wouldn't really post in this thread. I gave up on it. Most of the people here are CNJs, so the bias is almost palpable and a lot of them are just plain wrong or in denial.

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This is pretty laughable. A WHM defending his class is bias, but a SCH calling for nerfs on the one "competing" class is not? You're just as biased, in fact, you probably are more so given your past "nerf WHM" posts. I know it's probably a struggle, but try thinking a little bit before you post next time.

More like you realizing your complaint is hilariously petty in the grand scheme of things (not to mention the blatant ignorance of game mechanics in the initial post). Maybe we'll also make sure that Wandering Palace will require an average ilvl of 80 to enter next patch. Because screw those filthy noobs wanting to farm it for gear! They should farm Stone Vigil for their full Darklight sets! But yeah, sure, make Scholars and White Mages identical. Destroy all class identity for the sake of perfect balance and boredom.

I won't deny that Holy is a very strong AoE, but I sure won't be so silly to ignore its massive mana cost, enmity actually being meaningful in this game, the White Mage requiring melee range to cast it efficiently, meaning enemies will be in range to bash your skull in and obviously the fact that after the full Stun DR kicks in, your tank will be taking damage while you aren't healing. Are these drawbacks enough to keep Holy balanced? Maybe, maybe not, that's a matter of opinion. But please, don't go claiming it's an instant win button while Scholars are victims. I've seen enough overgeared Scholars while tanking that just sit in Cleric Stance and do good DPS the entirety of Wandering Palace while the fairy keeps me alive, with the occasional Lustrate. Sure, the runs don't take 10 minutes, but 20-25 minutes is hardly anything to complain about. Those 10 minute runs are a fantasy for the Duty Finder anyway.

Also, please don't talk about bias. You have a history of "Nerf White Mage!" posts everywhere. Not to mention calling us wrong and not refuting a single claim. Way to go, champ.

I would actually say WHM and SCH are pretty comparable in WP speedruns...

When I go through speedruns as a white mage, I have to switch between Cleric stance (holy spamming) and turning off Cleric stance, refreshing Regen, and capping the tank off with a Cure II. My WHM is well-geared (Relic and full DL) so gear is not an issue here.

Scholar, on the other hand, have a fairy to continue throwing out supplemental heals. Lustrate, to my knowledge, is percentage based on the tank's total HP and thus it doesn't MATTER if you are in reducing your damage by being in Cleric Stance or not.

I'm a summoner. I run this as a summoner. My damage is DoT damage. A scholar in Cleric stance can do comparable damage with their DoTs simply because of how the mechanics work. I'm not complaining about it because every job has their place and I like that SCH have more 'options' than just staight-up healing. So, they can throw up the three DoTs, Bane (for one Aethercharge), and switch right back to healing. All the while, their pet gives supplemental heals/buffs to the party which WHM do NOT have. Don't forget those shields and Lustrate, too. If you use one Aethercharge for Bane, you have two Lustrates waiting and ready to use. That's 40% total HP, including whatever else you cast and the heals your pet throws out... more than enough to get this done.

Holy spam will hit for around 500 AoE, but it's a huge manadrain. DoTs, on the other hand, are not. If you are speedrunning, you have to make a choice between damage and conserving mana. No one wants you to go OOM.

Also, perhaps this has been explained but I always assume people post as their main class on these forums. OP, do you play SCH or are you posting for someone else who is unhappy about it?

By the way... scholar Titan parties? Has anyone mentioned this? Scholar is a pretty powerful, versatile class. Just because they can't faceroll quite as fast as a WHM on an iLevel 55 dungeon being completed by mostly people in iLevel 70/80/90 gear doesn't mean an adjustment needs to be made.

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Originally Posted by Morthis

Disagreeing Holy needs to be nerfed != saying Holy is weak.

Also best by what metric? It's a good AoE, but I doubt we'll see WHM getting invited as "AoE dps" any time soon.



This is pretty laughable. A WHM defending his class is bias, but a SCH calling for nerfs on the one "competing" class is not? You're just as biased, in fact, you probably are more so given your past "nerf WHM" posts. I know it's probably a struggle, but try thinking a little bit before you post next time.

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it's the strongest AoE dmg based on the metric of most damage.

as in it does more dmg than other AoEs.

they're already being invited for AoE dps, where have you been? why didn't they invite you?

While I agree that Holy is a powerful spell, I see no reason to nerf it just because it's helpful in WP speed runs. I main a SCH and have no problems doing a WP speed run with a warrior/paladin tank any faster than if I were on my WHM. The Stun from Holy is about the equivalent damage reduction of Sacred Soil + Eye for an Eye. And the damage is menial when you may only get off 1-2 Casts before going back to healing your tank. Not to mention the MP you eat up doing those 1-2 casts is pretty substantial.

never understood ppl crying for a nerf when they feel their class is too weak compared to something... why not ask for a buff of your own class?

Or crying for any changes because massively outgearing a dungeon and speed running it could be a bit faster with one healer class doing dps (not even primary function) than another.

I don't even know where to begin with the amount of whine that the OP is slinging. It's not like we are talking cutting edge content and dps classes... this is a whine because farming trivial content could "possibly" be a teeny bit faster with one healing class doing dps. The ridiculousness just makes me wonder how some people get on in thier daily lives.

Threads like this make me want a dislike button

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Originally Posted by Zetor

Snip~

Also, following this train of thought, it's time to nerf:
- Repose. Scholars don't have this, and it completely removes damage from several mobs, which is more than any healing spell. This is completely unfair while playing through Brayflox, Stone Vigil, etc!
- Shroud of Saints. A WHM can just cast this and get a ton of mana back... and it dumps aggro as well? Easymode crap.
- Cure 3 proc. I mean, dude, it's a proc that makes a big AOE heal auto-crit! That's freaking awesome!

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You sir, are win.

For those saying holy is the highest damage aoe... wrong. The highest damage aoe is flare with 260 potency compared to holy's 240 and it also has a 2x damage multiplier if astral fire 3 is up (520potency).

With Cleric Stance, Holy becomes 264 potency for a maximum of 2112 potency with 8 Holy before OOM around 20 seconds if you go all out and blow cooldowns (swiftcast & presence of mind for 2.5 cast). This pretty much matches the 2080 potency of a BLM who manages three Flares (Astral Fire III) and two normal Flares over a similar period of time, if that is even possible. That they come this close is most likely purposeful balancing by S-E rather than a coincidence. With Raging Strikes +20% dmg, as well as higher accuracy and crit chance from gear, the BLM would still no doubt pull ahead as the top-tier burst AoE dps over 20 seconds.

The difference being that the WHM as well as the entire party would be pretty screwed afterwords unless you had around 1 minute to recover without much healing. Totally non-sustainable, but WHM can have pretty insane burst AoE dps in a pinch, under the assumption that nothing survives. Realistically, you would never spam Holy on any content your party wasn't overgeared enough to faceroll. More practical end-game usage of Holy would rarely have you fire it off more than once or twice. Harder content is needed, not an AoE nerf.

I'm supposed to heal as a SCH? Normally I just let my pet do all that while I sit in cleric stance and DPS everything, this goes on for everything, not just trash mobs, even bosses it's like this....

Some people make the stun sound OP, but you have to remember there are diminishing returns so after holy 3 mobs are immune to the stun.

Each Job has specific strengths and weaknesses

scholars get a couple fairies and a lot more utility but lack AoE potentional, but still has some AoE.

white mages have superior AoE potentional at the cost of large chunks of MP that is hard to recover but weaker single target, Aero, Aero II, lightning, and stone II vrs what you have.

while a scholar dpses their fairy can heal the party

while a white mage dpses no one actively heals the party.

........seems balanced