I had three gear sets for PLD in 1.0; An Enmity set, an HP set, and a high DEF set for beastmen camps. All were useful for different situations. That's what I want. Choice. Variety. Builds. Fun.
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And what happens when you have multiple classes at max lvl? Now you need multiple sets for each class, again very few players like that when having a choice on how to gear. Having varying stats on gear takes some thought and theorycrafting on which is actually better. Having multiple sets that are entirely situational makes you go "I want this and this and this for each slot, I may not entirely know which is better in each situation but wtf the text says they do this and this in these situations", and that's when you find out after collecting all those different sets "hey this isn't a noticeable difference at all and there's really only a single set that is better than all the rest in every situation".
That's how Guild Wars does it and it's terrible design. They have 15 or so different stat combination on gear that gives you the impression that each is for various situations, until every single dps figured out "hey berserker gear is the only really good stat combination because I like to do higher numbers even though I may die fast aslong as I can kill the thing faster". There is no choice in gear, any solo or small group content in that game pigeonholds you into a single stat combination if you want to be successful, anything other than that and you are gimping your group and yourself.
I'd rather have a WoW gear system (ilvl gearing) than what FFXI had. I couldn't stand people talking **** cause you aren't using certain gear or changing gears when I played FFXI.
Agree with the op, gear chasing gets tiring fast, and is inane.. but hey WoW did it so its great right.....nope Guildwars 1 had the the best setup, no mmo has beaten it not even Guildwars 2..
Sadly these treadmill games aren't worth bothering with these days i guess.
Item level flat out destroyed FFXI, removing any reason to do years of old content. The game's a ghost town now. I hope it's handled better here -- can't really tell at this point, since they haven't released a new tier of equipment yet.
Ilvl has nothing to do with horizontal progression, for it or against it, the type of game SE is making actually requires it. Horizontal progression only worked in 11 because you had gear swaps and literally hundreds of BIS (best in slot) gear for each job depending on mob/weapon type/mob type/ws/weather, this game has none of that and none of the options, the pool of BIS gear is literally only as large as the number of items you can equip at once currently, horizontal progression only works if they can spread BIS gear between lots of events and considering you can only equip 11-13 pieces of gear at a time, they can only have so much, "current", actual relevant content will always be limited to basically what it is now, new will obviously come out, but the endgame will stay this size. Hence... Linear progression will have to stay. People literally asked for this.
Having an extra set of numbers on a piece of gear didn't destroy the game. They started to push more towards a vertical gear progression, sure. And that would have worked out great for what they wanted, if they had done it a few years back. But the game is old, and the playerbase has shrunk significantly over the years. This would have happened regardless of what they chose to do or when they chose to do it.
FF11 at its peak had 680k players, when abyssea released it was still around 490k, on average only lost 3% a year. After abyssea the game started losing 20% a year, the people who played 11 knew what they liked, if they wanted WoW, they would have been playing it.
/sea all and many of the database sites tracked log-ins numbers throughout the day.
the game lost very little of its population each year, abysea drastically changed the game. That combined with XIV caused multiple mass exoduses.
Even if there is no 100% definite proof, only SE knows the exact impact. The game went through 2 server merges in about 16months after abysea, that alone is enough to say how many people left. The game went from 2-3k players online at the peaks to only breaking 1k on weekends.
The majority of the XI's population was extremely against the changes the devs did with abysea and the level increases, and they paid for it with a huge chunk of subs that never returned even after XIV 1.0 more or less tanked.
XI was an oldschool game. The people who wanted WoW were on WoW. The majority of the players on XI did not want what WoW had. Most of them hated what WoW was doing to the genre. Making XI more mainstream when 99% of its subs were not mainstream at least to me seems like a bad business decision.
iLevels are symptomatic of a larger problem with the game - gear treadmills are tedious and boring at best. I really hope they either give us some form of horizontal progression or open up the materia system to allow for better (or as would be the current case, ANY) customization.
While I dislike the system, too many big name MMO's have featured this so it's become a "must have" feature for many players. I just hope that it serves zero purpose beyond the Duty Finder. If my Free Company feels like a challenge one night, we ought to be able to attempt anything we'd like with any gear we've got. If iLevel is mandatory for every single instance, it's going to take a lot of fun out of the game for me and I'm betting quite a few others as well.
Wouldn't a mixture of the 2 work out? You use the current method when levelling and when you hit max level the other takes over. Then when a expansion hits with a level increase it switches back until max level is hit once more?
eventually Yoshi and team will HAVE to grow the gears horizontally, as of now it is already experiencing the power creep syndrome.
I've read that they are still trying to tweak stat balance before introducing gears that alter your skills/attributes/passive abilities. So here's hoping future updates will be so.
Considering gear score gating will soon be patched into Duty Finder for some content, I think Ilevel is appropriate and needed.
However, they need more training content in early levels that is in the quest line. I mean more than that one gear check quest we currently have -but similar to it and more elaborate. It should explain the differences in Ilevel, stats, definitions of the gear tiers color structure and add it to the materia meld questlines too.
Why? So that people know it is there, get into the habit of appropriately noticing the importance of gear level and gearing their characters long before they ding 50. The way it is now, unless you like spending gil on armor you actually don't need to complete content and don't mind frequently upgrading with the blind speed that we levelup in this game, the "because you can" easiest route factor comes in and people don't upgrade gear because they can complete content with gear several levels lower.
Since gear eventually becomes consequential, they should make it consequential early on so that players are not conditioned to the fact that they can get by with gimp gear, only to suddenly have a rude awakening when they get to higher level content and are kicked/ridiculed/fail/locked out due to gear.
Actually iLvL was invented by players. Blizzard simply added the feature because so many people used an add-on to display a numeral value based on gear. Though that is superficial to the point. My only problem with iLvL comes with how most people end up using it. They want folks to be over geared, not simply 'geared enough' so they cay plow through with as little trouble as possible. While I understand the desire to make a run as easy as possible, it makes it difficult for people to do instances they are geared for when they finally get geared for it. (Without being kicked out of a group or grumbled at.)
Otherwise I cannot say I agree. I have no issues with iLvL/Gear Scores in general since I see it as a way of judging if I am ready for an instance. My problem will always be how players eventually want over-geared and never give someone a chance to prove they are skilled even though they have an instance minimal Gear Score/iLvL.
I have no problem with people showing up with less than optimal gear...
But people shouldn't be allowed to enter for example WP with sub-AF gear and similarly low level weapons, if they want the DF to fill out the party. Want to try stuff undergeared? They can set up their own party and enter instead.
That's from actually having entered WP with such people and noticing early on that their damage output just wouldn't be enough for the pudding boss. Which it indeed wasn't.
Yea I agree Nekodar, I don't mind either and I can't see myself gearchecking anyone but myself in a party unless it ruins completion objectives for the rest of the ppl in the party. My issue is since they have Ilevel and plan to add gear score as a requirement for content, they should provide a route that prepares players for it. As it is, it is hard to blame people for taking the easy route up to that point when the game does not shape or motivate the player to do otherwise.
It also goes as far as inventory expansion because if you actually min/max upgrade gear at every opportunity from early level, it can hit your inventory hard wtih gear that is not even spirit bonded in some cases because you leveled out of it so quickly. It goes as far as making low level materia melding actually matter to people. It also goes into crafters having a wider and more diverse market to sell below lvl50 gear with melds.
Actually, i level was derived as a way to at-a-glance see if a player had enough gear to do content. This really was only necessary if you were filling one or two slots in a raid if you had people missing. The only time you saw people requiring gear over the content they were doing, were bads trying to compensate for lack of skill, or they truely didn't know what the score meant.
I am not sorry to see this in, then maybe people would be able to Duty finder titan(or even ak), at least then it would just be skill, and not somebody in full level 40 greys causing wipes.
And btw, stop acting like vertical gear progression is bad. The OP literally has asked for no vertical progression, and in another post complained that the game was too standardized (what horizontal progression does). Gear is something you get as a reward for doing content, that you can use to do more challenging content. If there is no progression the game would of been beaten by the masses already. If you want fast game play, go rent a console game.
iLvl is important so people can say: Must have iLvl 90 or go away.
People wish to discriminate in an easy and simple manner to ensure the highest probability of winning with the least amount of effort.
If we wish to get rid of iLvl we will have to change the player base to desire something other than 'more uber gear rawr'.
Ya but you could do endgame with more then 30 people in FFXI so not everyone needed great gear. FFXIV is max 8 you can't count crystal tower as endgame. Seeing how they made it more simple and even added to the duty finder so more wide of players can enjoy and get items then again crystal tower was made as a stepping stone for coil so ya. FFXIV is tier progression and Ilvl is part of the system i think it late to change it now. Even tho i love to see item that i can use from 11-50 it just not that type of game. FFXI days are long gone this is how games are done. Too a game come around and become top in the market and make a new stranded.
the thing that concerns me bout ilvl and gear scoring is this:currently for scholar darklight cowl is inferior to vanya robe because whm and sch have slightly different needs. if this continues all gear past a certain point needs to be JSE.
I wonder if it will one day be possible to upgrade an iLvl of a gear (say through material).
I also find it odd that my ILvl is determined by my weapon, reagardless of the rest of my gear. I can be iLvl 70 (moogy stick) and have nothing of value on the rest of me.
Sorry, but it's not a personal preference. It's simple math.
I joined AK. We went to the first boss and failed, twice. Not enough firepower. We couldn't even bring it below 50%.
Then i checked our other DPS, a BLM. Full AF, weapon 44. OK, I said, let's check the rest… lv 15 - 18 jewelry and a lv 1 ring.
When I told him "try to get some better equip pieces :)" he dared to reply "I'm here for that reason". You cannot just FATE your way up to 50 and join DF equipped with such things.
So, if people are not able to comprehend simple requirements by themselves, it's good that iLevel is there and that DF will have it as a requirement.
no, "horizontal" progression sucks because you're expceted to have like 100 pieces of gear to play one job/class. This leads to inventory nightmare and needing complicated macros to change gear all the time. This coupled with the fact that gear swapping isn't allowed in combat.
What is really needed is more special stats / extra effects on gear to create more options within the same ilvl range. You don't need to "remove" ilvl to have options, and removing it won't change that some gear is better than others and the elitists will always demand the mathematical best regardless.
Let me make a comparison to a game where all the gear has the same stats and requires modification (eg materia, +1,+2, etc) to become more powerful. In this game everyone wears whatever they like or feels the coolest.
However because upgrading something that only provides 2 points of defense into something that provides 20, requires the equivilent of "spiritbond" 7 times, and each enchant risks destroying the item completely, you only end up with a 1% chance of ever having a fully upgraded, enchanted item, and even then...
The game soaks you for repair costs which also have a chance for complete destruction. The game stops being fun when an item you just spent a month taking care of is destroyed by the 99% success rate repair option falling into the 1% fail.
So no, I don't like other games upgrading/repair systems. FFXIV's doesn't waste your time if you don't want to. But the cost to this is everyone at endgame winds up with exactly the same gear and thus looking almost exactly the same except for their face.
what we need is more pieces with Enhanced : X skill , that what makes items worth it, gaining 2 stats here 3 there and 1 over there is meh....
why relics+1 dont enhance 1 of the JOB skills?
enhance Flare: flare now make your next spell 100% crit....
Enhance : River of blood , 50% chance of letting Bard cast misery end w/o health restriction
enhance Cure : chance on heal to proc a instant cast stoneskin
I think the best way to do it by far is a mix of vertical and horizontal.
I personally don't care if gear is horizontal or vertical, I just want CHOICES to be made when gearing up. When 99% of the way I gear involves "This is higher ilvl than this, so I will equip it" with little to no choices, thinking, theorycrafting, or number crunching I find it incredibly boring to gear up a character Add into that the fact there's no vanity slots, and most gear looks god-awful, plus the fact I'm FORCED to wear gear that makes me look like a clown means the entire process of gearing is no fun all around.
I don't get to think about what gear I want, it's laid out in front of me with easy "ilvl" system to follow, I don't get to look awesome or look what I want to look like, or look different from anyone else in the game, no vanity system and the best gear for every class makes me look like clone #25050.
Something absolutely needs to be done about gearing, everything else in this game is fantastic and probably the best of any tab-target MMO on the market at the moment, but the gearing as a whole is severely lacking in choices, looks, and fun.
Interesting thread. I guess I am fine with ilvl - I don't really know if it's the "perfect" solution. However, it really does make me sad that ppl get to 50 and have their lovingly designed artifact armor eventually replaced so fast with darklight stuff or vanya robes. All of a sudden, you have all these unique looks blending into just a few looks - as everyone is running around in those darklight robes, etc. It's a blessing that the vanya robes can at least be dyed.. Just feels weird that everyone eventually starts looking the same. It feels very .. linear and unexciting or something. Sorry. :(
On the flip side, the sense of actually fighting stronger bosses is diminished if you're going to fight them in the same gear you got to begin with. And no, "more gearing options" might seem interesting, but it won't matter a lot if you can tailor to get a bit more HP, make your weapon fiery, sprout rainbows from your butt or whatnot, in the end, with how the game runs, there's going to be an optimal set anyway and you'll just stick to that while you plow through fights in the same gear, with no sense of being rewarded at all. Of course, you could fundamentally re-design combat in the game and force people to have specific sets that are the best for each fight, but I don't really see what that would accomplish. It's not really any more interesting to have sets that are best for each boss, best for the day of the week or best for if it's raining outside or if it's sunny compared to just having one set that is best for combat over all. There's no thought or interesting customization there either, what's best is best. It would just be a different kind of grind.
I think requests of this kind are simply down to people that can't cope or keep up with change. They feel if they got something good, it should remain good for the rest of the game. A sort of expression for the feeling that they are every bit as great as the hardcore guys that always keep up to date with their gearing, just except for whatever reason they can't keep up to date with their gearing. In a genre whose PvE aspect is defined by gathering stronger gear to overcome stronger foes.
Requests to simply level the competition by removing any gearing progression is understandable from that standpoint.
Atm, this game really doesn't have much itemization that makes it ok to wear an IL 55 piece instead of an IL 90 piece....
The only real decent example I can find is that I'm wearing the IL60 tank helm from AK because it has parry and acc on it and I have my AF2 chest so it's the best helm I can have until I get the allagan helm from BCB. But IL doesn't matter here. Anyone who knows anythign worthwhile about this game will know that and not judge me because I have an IL 60 helm. They might say "Get your AF2 Helm" and I'll say "It doesn't have parry/acc on it, this ones better, unless you want me to miss and not hold threat....
XIV's new battle system is fast paced, while XIs was more outlast. I doubt you will have to worry about gear sets in the future for XIV, atleast not as bad as it was in XI. That and since you can't change gear during combat.
I see nothing wrong with the Ilevel system, I just think they could've done it a bit better, instead of giving us Ilevel90 gear at level 50...
I'd also like to point out, that ILevel wasn't blizzards invention, it was actually D&D/Bioware's "invention"
I can't help but be concerned; I really love digging into this sort of thing. And while we do have various coloured gear, it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of consistency with it regarding to how much more or less powerful it is compared to each other. I'd personally love to see the game's design documents.
My primary issue with the current itemization scheme is that, ultimately, it's kind of boring. Your next weapon will have more or less the same stats but just slightly more of them. There isn't any real choice as to what you're using, it's either definitively better or definitively not.
Now that said, this is really just "the beginning" of the game so maybe as Crystal Tower expansions and Coil expansions come out we'll start to see a more broad selection of gear.
Primarily, what I like to see from gear selection is gear that can adjust the way you play your game, letting your tailor your character a little different from the other one standing over there.
Just because a theorycrafter says "This is optimal" doesn't mean everything else isn't good though and should be ignored. For example, when I played GW2 my partner played a Necromancer with a heavier leaning towards healing and it ended up working out spectacularly. She didn't hit as hard as other necros could but she made it a heck of a lot easier for everyone on the team to stay alive. And she didn't use Berserker gear to do it.
It isn't "the impression" of choice, there is choice and if you know how to work with it can use it to play your character differently from the 12390857346 other players while still being effective.
And this! This is the kind of stuff I personally love. I love gear that tweaks your skills, moves you in a slightly different path, or heck gives you entirely new abilities!
I'm honestly not one for mid-battle gear swaps (excepting weapons) because it doesn't make sense to me to pull off your plate chest piece and then pop another one on mid-battle without any negative impact on you.
But I am one for tangible choice. I like gear to augment how I play and make my character play differently than another character of the same class.
MMORPGs are supposed to be about making your character yours. At least they used to be.
You are comparing GW2, where you are stuck with a single job, to XIV where you have multiple jobs.
If you want an healer you get an healer, not a BLM with an healing ability that put all its stats to MND.
You have already 9 different ways of customizing your char unless you can't get bothered to level each job.