Why cant we play Garlean empire?

The way I see it we can't play as the Garlean Empire because Judge armors are simply too cool for school.

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Originally Posted by Toranja

Garlemad's objectives are noble, but its methods abhorrent. I don't judge it to be evil, nor Eorzea.

A question that's not really out or in topic: for an American, do you even wonder about the parallels between this story and the one between yours and the Amerindians?

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Its the Indians fault for not having enough crystals to call up their gods.

As we all know SE has a finger in all, especially a game that continues to give them revenue. So Yoshi P might have this idea, and all but he has quite the hump to cross before he can even start giving his Dev's something to work on.

But as stated before, if enough people show interest, they will at the very least comment on it. They may not give spoilers but they may say something as little as


"We will consider implementing this if we get more support."


So it really boils down to what the players want. I've given it my little "thumbs up/like button" so i'm supporting the idea. And hopefully that is where we'll go. Good/Bad I just like the idea of having two different countries on the same planet, and as always, I love hearing both sides of the story :)

Probably nothing new, but I guess everyone would play the empire just to be "evil" and have badass judges armors. It could be interresting, and could add something PvP-wise, but I do not think this is anything SE have in mind for this game.

Thing is... I do not like how nations are always categorized with this old good or evil dichotomy. Even if the Empire wasn't considered entirely evil lore-wise, new players would still think so when creating a new character and you'll end up with a bunch of kids in an entire nation (and some adults who would like to change faction... . :cool:).

So wanna use a Gunblade.....

So I realize this is a very old thread but I really want to play as a Garlean.......... the lore is so cool.

From a roleplay standpoint, you kind of can, and we have at least one very prominent regular here who does. Just say you're Garlean and roleplay accordingly.

From a gameplay standpoint, though, that cool lore gets in the way of things pretty fast. The most obvious is the lack of magical ability; while this makes them distinct as a people, having an explicitly Garlean race requires the game to either ignore the lore or gimp the race. Fine; the PC can always be a special Garlean who has skills in magic. That then raises the question as to why they'd be off adventuring in Eorzea and not part of their nation's army; couple this with what the main story requires the player to do canonically, and it really narrows the sort of Garlean you can play. You have to somehow reconcile actively fighting against your homeland, or at the very least working against its best interests. My understanding is that the entire attraction to Garlemald is that it's such a stark contrast to the default allies you have in the game and offers a different point of view to the ongoing conflicts, but short of giving Garlean players a distinct MSQ, that experience can't actually be delivered.

If the game ever has Eorzea and Garlemald come to some sort of understanding, and/or decides to set a new starting point for the story down the line, then that might be possible. As it is, though, there's not really a way to officially let players be a Garlean in a way that works with the ongoing narrative and without compromising the desired experience.

We don't necessarily need Garleans to be added as a playable race. I would be very pleased if they were added - especially if it was handled in a way that proved satisfying to fans of the Garlean Empire - but there's a great workaround as Hinoto states: role-play. I can't speak for anything other than Balmung's role-playing community but there's at least fifty people role-playing a Garlean in-game...and that's just counting those that I know of. They're rather popular!

You can design both Midlanders and Highlanders to look at least somewhat 'Garlean'. At the moment, we lack a 'third eye' glamour but it is my hope that we will eventually see one added to the game. At the moment, hairstyles that cover a character's forehead as well as the use of circlets serve as a decent workaround.

As far as the lack of magic is concerned, certain plot points revealed in the 4.0 MSQ's may serve as a way to introduce playable Garleans further down the line in a way that allows for them to wield aether effectively. The lore book does, however, imply that although it is very rare there are some Garlean Purebloods who are capable of using magic. Again, like Hinoto states, it'd be far easier if a new starting point is added later on.

WoW saw immense success by tweaking antagonistic non-playable races into playable races - and it such a decision was received exceptionally well by the player-base. It isn't unreasonable to assume that something similar could be done with Garlemald, even if it's just a specific faction of Garleans that priortise their people and homeland but aren't all that interested in a policy of expansion through conquering foreign nations. The developers have been very careful about keeping each of Garlemald's Legions as their own separate entity with their own specific motivations that do not necessarily align with Garlemald as a whole. Zenos is a prime example of this - he reveals that Garlemald is not his priority, a 'good fight' is what drives him.

Perhaps another Legion decides to take matters into their own hands and tries to embrace diplomacy to ensure stability within the Empire's existing holdings. By all accounts, some of the other Garlean provinces are prospering under Imperial rule, after all - which suggests that the more brutal approach of Zenos, Nael and Gaius is not the sole rule.

To be fair to the point of more sympathetic Garlean factions, there actually is some evidence for such a faction existing. While the information we have on the Garlean civil war is quite limited, it was stated in the lorebook that the faction opposing Varis was actually also opposed to much of the expansionist policies of the Empire. We could definitely see them come up again in the future, especially with the inevitable Garlemald expansion. It would have been interesting if his faction had won instead of Varis's, but that would have also robbed the game of one of its principal antagonists. Still though, there are very many interesting possibilities for the future of more sympathetic Garlean factions, although they'd have to be somewhat separated from the Garlean government as a whole. Maybe another Rogue Legion like the XIV?

Each Legion has had its own motivations which is part of what makes them cool in my own opinion! While the XIV Legion cared a lot about equality and conquering Eorzea for the Empire despite being forsaken by them, the VII was focused much more on the elimination of the other races. The VI legion seems to be more of a special forces unit for Varis himself, and are directly loyal to more long term goals for the Empire such as the capture of Allagan technologies and finding ways to eliminate (or exploit) the Primal threat. XII legion was focused much more on oppression and allowing Zeno to indulge his personal vices, hence them being sent in to clean up after the Doman rebellion and pushed into the fringes of the Empire. It's cool since it allows the writers to present a great many different types of villains and characters for each Legion while still keeping them as a cohesive nation.

As far as Garleans as a race goes, I'm not sure they would need much more than a third eye glamour to be honest. They don't really have any other notable physical characteristics to separate them from Hyur. One possibility for including them would be if they ever decided to add more clans to the game, in which case they would be well represented as an Extra Hyur clan. And they would probably have to be explained away as the rare magic using Purebloods since even the Machinist class involves Aetheric manipulation. It's also super easy to play a Garlean other race conscript RP-Wise though. My favorite explanation is one of the survivors of Cartenau. Many of them were specifically saved by the Twin Adders, to the point that the 'number two' invented for Kan-E-Senna in Stormblood was a former Garlean soldier. Most of them probably had to end up as sellswords and/or bandits anyway...

I think I would like playing for the empire to be honest. The city states just aren't what I started 1.0 with anymore, and there are times where I find Eorzea and the scions really grating.

It actually would surprise me if Elidibus' intented target for the last calamity is the Garleans, and he is playing the desperation of the realm(and the scions' clear bias)to his advantage, the region is known for its crystals, so maybe detonating that, along with the misery and realities of a empire broken in pieces with no one to turn to, would be what he needs.

It woulds add something to his idea that the Scions would be fighting with him.

I've always felt as though Elidibus' plans would be ruined very easily if the Eorzean Alliance and Garlemald decided to team up and work together to find a solution to the Primal/Eikon threat. Much like how the White Walkers in A Song of Ice and Fire are the true threat and the political intrigue plaguing Westeros is but a distraction that serves to weaken those with the power to stand up and fight against them...it's no different where Hydaelyn is concerned.

Still, I'm hopeful that we'll see the Garlean Consulate put to use during this expansion and that the Scions will be forced to realise that Garlemald is not as irredeemable as they act like it is. They don't really have much ground to stand upon where that viewpoint is concerned, though - not when one considers Regula's actions and Zenos sabotaging his own people and openly denouncing Garlemald in front of the Warrior of Light. Then, of course, there's Baut in the side quests in Gyr Abania and the more noble of Gaius' actions.

Varis is, by all accounts, an excellent tactician. I believe he will do whatever it takes to ensure that his people and homeland survive - which may require brutal methods at times but also may require diplomacy and a more subtle approach. I think we'll see more of the latter moving forward. If not from Varis himself then at the hands of someone associated with Garlemald. For the sake of appeasing the people who don't want Garlemald to be gutted completely, though, they need to 'feel' and 'act' Garlean.

I might point out, Stormblood is the first time we have attacked Garlemald unprovoked and one of the reasons negotiations haven't been on the table is because the Garleans have been unwilling to alter their intended courses of action. Every other conflict we have had with Garlemald, they started.

I think we will work with them eventually but I think it will requires some give and take on both sides. They ease up on the whole brutal oppression, genocide, and screwing with highly dangerous and unethical technologies, and we come to terms with the fact that the Garlean empire isn't all bad and is entrenched in the culture of most of their native continent now.

I have a few issues with this particular line of reasoning. Namely the idea that Garlemald would desire peace. While Garlemald is somewhat entrenched in its territories, they seem to have done little to effect the actual cultures other than repressive actions such as outlawing religion. What people don't seem to understand is that Garlemald foreign policy so far has consisted almost entirely of conquest, and from the makeup of their Empire they're built to be in a state of constant war. A perfect example of this would be their tendency to conscript large portions of the population immediately into their armies. This is useful for the purposes of expansion, but also has repeatedly been shown to have massive, negative effects on the economy of those regions. There's a reason that Gaius was able to apparently conquer four territories before having his ambitions stopped by the Battle of Silvertear falls.

In addition, as far as I can tell the civilian applications of Magitek are relatively unexplored. This is somewhat logical for Garlemald, especially since they don't want the secrets of their magitek being allowed to non-citizens. Despite being in Ala Migho and Doma for over 20 years there is no sort of automated farming equipment, public works, or any other serious alterations of daily life. The people of the Yanxia continued their farming traditions and are mostly affected instead by terrible taxes and repressive policies. Attempts to 'Garleanize' the populations in nearly every case have been shown to be highly limited, more than partially because the Garleans themselves barely want the 'savages' allowed into their culture at all. They even explicitly need to keep their soldiers in the conquered regions to prevent revolts, which is hardly something that a noble power respected by the people would require.

Also, on a deeper level, I fear a very, very large misconception is commonly thought about Garlemald. Namely in mixing up their primary goals. Defeating the Primal is not their main purpose. It never has been, which is especially logical given how Primals are actually a rather recent problem for Eorzeans, and the Garlean conquest began far, far before even knowing about them. The Garleans hate primals and other Eikons so much since they believe that such creatures are the only things that can oppose them. And to an extent they are right. Most of the other nations they fought were conquered with relative ease, especially considering the Empire is less than a century old. Even Ala Migho, which resisted their military might for a time, was taken down by Garlean ingenuity and subterfuge. Their first major setback in nearly a century was the battle of Silvertear Falls, which showed that even their greatest machines are not invincible. They are not conquering the world to defeat the primals, they are defeating the primals to conquer the world.

Additionally, I am somewhat puzzled by the implication that Eorzeans immediately hate and mistrust all Garleans or need to understand them better. The Eorzeans have repeatedly been shown as willing to aid and even protect Garlean soldiers and affiliates. Aymeric was willing to accept Lucia as his right hand woman despite knowing of her affiliations. The 'number two' for Kan-E-Senna was a Garlean soldier. The Twin Adder saved the remaining members of the VII legion after the Battle of Cartenau. They've protected sympathetic Garleans such as Baut, and even honored Regula's last wishes and let his men recover his body. The old priest protected and helped Cid, even though he was clearly a Garlean and didn't have the memory to tell him that he was a deserter. I'm not understanding or seeing any 'intolerance towards Garlemald' other than opposition to their aggressive, dangerous, and ruthless actions. I like greyer narratives and the like, but at the same time it seems this forum has invented narratives where they don't exist.

That being said, I can definitely see the Scions helping Garlemald in the future. The scenario I figured would be some sort of threat appearing within the nation itself, one that threatens to tear the Empire apart and ruin countless others. This could lead to the situation where Garlemald might have to rely on the Scions for once, which creates hundreds of interesting scenarios and questions. Would the Scion be willing to help? Would the arguments split them apart? How would Varis feel about all of this? Would they try to trap and kill the Scions anyway? There are dozens of possibilities here, but it's also a bit off topic.

Sorry for the long posts, there's just been some thoughts I wanted to get out for a while. Happy to discuss more though!

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Despite being in Ala Migho and Doma for over 20 years there is no sort of automated farming equipment, public works, or any other serious alterations of daily life. The people of the Yanxia continued their farming traditions and are mostly affected instead by terrible taxes and repressive policies.

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This actually makes me curious, is it ever mentioned anywhere that Gaius tried to do anything like introducing farming magitek into Ala Mhigo while he was viceroy? Because both the playerbase and the story itself mostly treat him (posthumously) as a more moderate alternative to the aggressive expansionist policies of the rest of the Empire. But "not as bad as the rest of them" is a pretty low bar to clear, and Gaius pretty clearly believed that the Garlean Empire, by conquering other nations, was helping them to become more civilised. Which is a popular justification that many, if not all, of the real-life empires have used throughout history. But the question remains: Did Gaius, having conquered Ala Mhigo, actually do anything like that to improve the basic quality of life in the country?

That's not a rhetorical question, I actually do want an answer. But right now, off the top of my head, I can't recall any of that, and from what we saw in Ala Mhigo and Doma, the Empire didn't do jack to help them. The end result of this is that "we're helping you savages" smacks of an impressive propaganda and indoctrination campaign, especially when we have Garlean footsoldiers who seem to be conscripts from conquered regions, shouting things like "Eorzean savages!" at us.

There is a lot of magitek wreckage to sift through, presumably the result of Shinryu's rampage. would we even know what farming equipment looks like?

Most of that wreckage is clearly visible as in game military equipment such as airships, magitek collosi and reapers. Normally I would chalk it up to military equipment being far more fun for the artists to put on the map than combine harvesters, but this applies to the quests as well. And all of those clearly show how they haven't really improved the standard of living for the Ala Mighans at all. If anything, they've made things worse through their mass conscription, ruining of several markets, and ruthless taxation. The Yanxian quests clearly show that they are following very traditional farming methods and haven't changed much. The only ones who seem to get to see any sort of magitek are the people of Radiata, who are more or less slaves not allowed to know anything about their inner workings. The Domans who were going to be sent to do magitek work were also noted as probably having to have years or decades of training forced on them...all so that they can complete years of unpaid labor and maybe be allowed back home. As far as I can tell there have been next to no lifestyle improvements.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Most of that wreckage is clearly visible as in game military equipment such as airships, magitek collosi and reapers. Normally I would chalk it up to military equipment being far more fun for the artists to put on the map than combine harvesters, but this applies to the quests as well. And all of those clearly show how they haven't really improved the standard of living for the Ala Mighans at all. If anything, they've made things worse through their mass conscription, ruining of several markets, and ruthless taxation. The Yanxian quests clearly show that they are following very traditional farming methods and haven't changed much. The only ones who seem to get to see any sort of magitek are the people of Radiata, who are more or less slaves not allowed to know anything about their inner workings. The Domans who were going to be sent to do magitek work were also noted as probably having to have years or decades of training forced on them...all so that they can complete years of unpaid labor and maybe be allowed back home. As far as I can tell there have been next to know lifestyle improvements.

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Well, we can argue that the Fringes wasn't good for farmland, and there don't seem to be any signs of irrigation or other markers of large-scale crop cultivation there. The Peaks, on the other hand, has Byregot's Bread (which makes me wonder how it was named such when the Garleans outlawed religion under their rule) nevermind, it's Byron's Bread, I can't read, which also looks fairly primitive, and no machines, I think. Coldhearth definitely has nothing, and the people there are living on the verge of starvation, by all accounts.

And this all just seems so counterproductive, to me. Didn't the Garleans ever figure out that allowing and helping their territories to, at the very least, produce more food (not even mentioning other goods or products) would equate to more taxes, or even simply more goods and services for Garlemald? That's the most basic idea of investment, after all.

It's kind of difficult to figure out just what the Garleans want when they're this stupid about it. We know, at the very least, that they want to conquer the world. But their stated reasons for conquering the world don't seem to match up with their actions. If they want resources, then they're doing a pretty poor job of getting more resources out of their conquered territories. If it's to bring civilisation to the people they consider to be savages and barbarians, they're not doing a good job of that either. If they're expanding for the sake of expansion or some ideology that they're meant to be the rulers of the world, or to follow in the footsteps of the Allagan Empire, that's just not a very sustainable idea by itself, to constantly be at war for the sake of being at war. And we can see that they're now suffering major losses as a consequence of their mindset.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've always felt as though Elidibus' plans would be ruined very easily if the Eorzean Alliance and Garlemald decided to team up and work together to find a solution to the Primal/Eikon threat. Much like how the White Walkers in A Song of Ice and Fire are the true threat and the political intrigue plaguing Westeros is but a distraction that serves to weaken those with the power to stand up and fight against them...it's no different where Hydaelyn is concerned.

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As long as Varis thinks genocide against the beast races is justified, and refuses to withdraw militarily from Eorzea, there's pretty much never going to be common ground between Eorzea and Garlemald. I don't care if they THINK it's justified, genocide is objectively not okay.

Actually the garlean conquest is heavily motivated by primals, or at least made them more certain they were 'doing the right thing.' when solus first encountered the damage primals could do it provided more clarity to what the empire should be doing and that is more or less unification through force and to stamp out primal belief which to them is any god at all.

Garlinizing culture comes down to military most of the time, we see it in doma how they have separate uniforms for soldiers in the east and it's not to bring cultures into their own, but more to make those cultural aspects more garlean.

Player fighting for garlean empire would either be locked out of story or need a different main scenario created for them

Just curious, scenario or not. How would an aether-bound Echo person fit in garlean?
I mean other than being a lab rat like how they treat kirille, it's not a very fun life.
I imagine the story is very short until level 20 where we have to survive Ifrit's, or concept of Echo.

I would like to play as the Garlean Empire, but also would like to see a whole new MSQ line from their perspective.

Actually just thinking about it doesnt that make all magic classes impossible to play?

I also really like the Empire. I doubt we'll be joining them any time soon, but eventually we'll get an expansion set in Garlemald (fingers crossed for 2019, keeping with the current 2 year cycle) and if the Gods are just, we'll get a gunblade class and tonnes of Imperial clothing and gear.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I would like to play as the Garlean Empire, but also would like to see a whole new MSQ line from their perspective.

Actually just thinking about it doesnt that make all magic classes impossible to play?

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Most of the Garlean troops we've encountered have been conscripted from the regions conquered by Garlemald. Only pure-blooded Garleans can't use magic, but they recruit plenty of people from other races who can.

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Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu

Just curious, scenario or not. How would an aether-bound Echo person fit in garlean?
I mean other than being a lab rat like how they treat kirille, it's not a very fun life.
I imagine the story is very short until level 20 where we have to survive Ifrit's, or concept of Echo.

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van Baelsar tried recruiting us at one point, so I guess we'd be Imperial operatives of some sort rather than experiments.

I don't see this happening in FFXIV proper, but it would be pretty neat to have this concept explored in a one-off single player game set in the XIV universe. Make it a new tactics game to boot.

EDIT: Holy damn this thread is old.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I would like to play as the Garlean Empire, but also would like to see a whole new MSQ line from their perspective.

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I'd be really interested in their perspective as well. How loyal are they to their cause, how loyal were they to their master? I could imagine Gaius had many loyal followers, but how did they view Zenos?

Throughout the entire Ala Mhigan part of the story, I couldn't determine which side was the worse to fight for and felt like an invader, fighting for a side that preferred to yammer all day instead of allowing anyone to help them, let alone try to help themselves. I found more respect for Fordola than any other Ala Mhigan we encountered, found some of the Garlean ideologies much more appealing than what the Resistance had to offer, and thus wished to switch sides more than once.
I felt the same way back in HW about the Holy See and the Heretics, only we actually did switch sides there, together with the Ishgardian leadership. It would surprise me enormously if we got to do that in SB.
Anyway, Gaius, Regula, Fordola and Zenos all showed there is more to the Garlean Empire than what we are told in Eorzea and I would like to find out more about that.

The Garlean Empire has consistently shown itself to be a threat to the peace, freedom, and/or well-being of others. By those tokens alone I cannot support their actions. That said, I am not opposed to a narrative from their viewpoint - far from it, I like being given different angles to view things from so that I can think and consider. I've... considered the Imperial merits we've been shown for quite some time, but again, as long as the Empire shows itself to be a threat to the peace, freedom, and/or well-being of others, I cannot agree with its ideology. Even if a campaign is offered from its point of view.

That's my final stance on the issue barring future developments. I'm tired of arguing about it.

Once we got to Gyr Abania and met with more reasonable Resistance leaders, the Ala Mhigans showed themselves very willing to accept Alliance aid. The Ala Mhigans who did not want to rise up against the Empire had been browbeat or physically beat into submission, or otherwise indoctrinated against Ala Mhigan independence. While many were unwilling to rise up against the Empire for perfectly understandable reasons, they still desired independence from the Empire and I saw no reason not to try and grant it to them, violently if need be.

Or, I guess we could do this...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...91/203/5e5.gif

... figuratively speaking, of course. (/sarcasm, kind of.)

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Originally Posted by LiquidOuroboros

I want to be a gunblade wielding fruimentari spy assassinating Lalafells :) Why cant we play Garlean Empire? Have they said anything about being able to play them later on?

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Disgusting...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Garlean Empire has consistently shown itself to be a threat to the peace, freedom, and/or well-being of others.

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Yet, thankfully, we know that isn't the case at all as it has been confirmed through multiple sources that whilst some regions suffer under Garlean rule others have prospered or remained virtually unchanged. It is largely inevitable that we will see such areas in the future for ourselves as we explore more of Hydaelyn. We've also seen Garlemald keeping the peace in Kugane.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yet, thankfully, we know that isn't the case at all as it has been confirmed through multiple sources that whilst some regions suffer under Garlean rule others have prospered or remained virtually unchanged. It is largely inevitable that we will see such areas in the future for ourselves as we explore more of Hydaelyn. We've also seen Garlemald keeping the peace in Kugane.

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In defense of Cilia, though - Garlemald has indeed been shown to be a threat to peace, freedom, and/or well-being of others. Not universally, as you point out, but to deny that that description applies to actions taken under their banner and with the implied approval of their government is to engage in willful ignorance of a solid chunk of the plot, up until now. Garlemald is an expansionist empire that enforces a rigid caste system on its conquered territories through military conquest, and so Cilia's accusations are a natural outcome of that policy; that some have benefited from this doesn't somehow erase the suffering of others.

(Also, and this is semantics, but Garlemald isn't keeping the peace in Kugane - that would require them to be serving as policemen and law keepers, a la the Sekiseigumi. They're just not actively attacking the place, which I'm pretty sure is what you meant, but I figured I'd clarify anyways.)

And there is a garlean officer in Ala... Ala... why do they all sound the same? The town with the big crystal in the Peaks. Anyway, this officer is so beloved by the locals they risk their lives for his. Garleans aren't ALL bad, just like the rest of Eorzea isn't ALL good. All of them have been shown to be a threat to peace, freedom and/or the well-being of others on occasion. There is more than black and white, it's all really a grey area and in the case of such a large Empire as the Garlean, it really depends on the local jurisdiction. Thus it would be foolish to lump them all together.

Who says the Ala Mhigans are more right than the Garleans? After all, they invited them and before that, the Ala Mhigans waged wars over lesser reasons than the Garleans are now. At least the latter share a common goal with us - stopping the Primals. Of course, the situation is a lot more complicated than that, as shown by the influence of the Ascians, and we could use much more information. However, Regula showed the Garleans are open to other suggestions and collaboration. But a peaceful solution with combined efforts to put an end to the primal threat is out of reach now thanks to the Resistance. We got a useless piece of desert in exchange, yay.

To be fair, the Garleans have goals far beyond merely defeating the primals. In fact, it can be very much argued that world domination, not defeating the primals, is their primary goal. They are largely interested in defeating the "Eikons' since they see such beings as one of the very few in the world who can resist their warmachina and the like. Given that several of their major defeats (Silvertear Lake, Baelsar's Wall) are directly related to primals makes this attitude somewhat logical, although their methods are truly abhorrent. That being said, they are massive hypocrites in their quest to defeat the primals, and their policies have done far more harm than good.

Gaius mocks the Eorzeans for relying on blind faith in higher powers and unleashing beasts they can't control. However, both he and the Empire go on to do that very same thing, putting blind faith in Allagan creations they don't understand and unleashing powers far beyond their power. They released Ultima Weapon, which would have done major damage to the world had the WoL not stopped it. They also attempted to capture the power of the Warring Triad, and it was shown that had they tried it would have been disastrous. And they also were the ones to unleash Bahamut on the world and cause a calamity. And their cruel treatment of the Ananta was the reason they summoned Lakshmi. And it's heavily pointed out that their expansionist, genocidal policies are what is causing the Beastmen to keep summoning their primals in the first place. (Especially the sylphs who have trouble differentiating between the 'iron men' and their peaceful Gridanian counterparts). Their methods for solving the primal threat are (currently anyway) inimical to both Eorzean life and sovereignty, and unfortunately with Varis in command that doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. Additionally, all attempts at diplomacy with the Empire have failed. They are effectively in a state of Total War with Eorzea, and have no current interest in any diplomatic solutions.

As for the whole 'some places have prospered' thing, I do have to say that maybe we shouldn't trust a couple of lines over a whole expansion worth of evidence. Even regions that have prospered will probably face several major issues due to the Garlean Ethos, such as the mass conscription, environmental damage, and other problems created by their pursuit of total war policies. Not to mention that non-Garleans explicitly are limited in how they could rise, with Rhitayn explicitly mentioned as being of the highest rank a non-pure blooded Garlean can achieve. They uphold a draconian caste system, and although people can rise through the ranks, it's explicitly much, much harder for those not of pure Garlean blood. As for not making peace in Stormblood, Ilberd's actions meant that the Garlean invasion would come again right quick. Would it be better to take the chance to free a horribly oppressed people? Or just wait for Garlemald to regroup and invade?

@Theo you say garlemald have been keeping the peace in kugane dunno about anyone else but we got led into an ambush in kugane and were attacked by garlean soldiers so im not buying them keeping the peace there.

I'll write up something lengthier when I get home, but in the meantime, consider this:

No matter how plush, how gilded, a cage remains a cage.

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Originally Posted by Airias

Who says the Ala Mhigans are more right than the Garleans? After all, they invited them and before that, the Ala Mhigans waged wars over lesser reasons than the Garleans are now. At least the latter share a common goal with us - stopping the Primals. Of course, the situation is a lot more complicated than that, as shown by the influence of the Ascians, and we could use much more information. However, Regula showed the Garleans are open to other suggestions and collaboration. But a peaceful solution with combined efforts to put an end to the primal threat is out of reach now thanks to the Resistance. We got a useless piece of desert in exchange, yay.

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Maybe I am missing something but how many wars did Ala Mhigo wage? I remember one which was a long time ago and which was forgiven by the state that was attacked by them. Right now Garlemald is in the wrong. They took the freedom and sovereignty of a country that had nothing to do with their own past (which happened on another continent), so its completely in the right of the people from Ala Mhigo to be free again, especially since they are threated very badly too.

And where exactly did they invite Garlemald? They had a bad ruler and the rebellion took him down (which was an state affair and not a world affair) and Gaius took this chaos to get the country himself. Its not the fault of the Ala Mhigan people that they had one bad ruler and it did not give Garlemald any right to conquer them.

For you it might be a useless piece of desert, for the people living there its a chance to live their lives in freedom and not in constant fear of being killed and they might finally be able to start their business with stones again, which was stopped by Garlemald. (And lets not talk about all the cultural events)

About primals: Garlemald did not start their conquering because of the primal threat. They were already going around the world and conquering countries before they met their first primal. This meeting was one of the reason that they did not manage to conquer Eorzea thus it might be why they started to want to kill primals forever. Gaius, after hearing about the scions, which is a bunch of people that want to find a solution against the primals (without killing all beast tribes..), did not decide to talk to them, no they slaughtered a lot of the scions and took the others with them to torture out informations. Not really quite the diplomatic way.

Anyway this is just my opinion. I do not believe that every single Garlean person is evil, since we did saw some good ones, but the government itself really needs a change.

About the question of the OP: Well Garlean cant use magic so this would mean that certain jobs would not be available for people to use and you are also restricted to one specific race. At the same time they would need to create a completely new scenario for those players, so in the end those are probably some reasons why people cant play as Garleans. And maybe the devs did not feel that playing as one of them would be a good lore reason, especially since they like to paint them in a very bad way, especially in SB.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yet, thankfully, we know that isn't the case at all as it has been confirmed through multiple sources that whilst some regions suffer under Garlean rule others have prospered or remained virtually unchanged. It is largely inevitable that we will see such areas in the future for ourselves as we explore more of Hydaelyn. We've also seen Garlemald keeping the peace in Kugane.

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They are not the one that are keeping peace in Kugane? Or do you mean that they can keep peace even if they are within the reach of others? I mean its their embassy so it would be horrible if they would not outwardly be able to be peaceful in such a position? Yet even though there should be peace, they ambushed Gosetsu and us, so they are not truly following that too.

Also just because some countries are suffering less or are getting better under their rule does not change the fact that they also threat some countries truly horrible and that even those countries that are good under them lost their freedom. Maybe instead of conquering them they could have traded with them and made their lives better through that.

Zenos is mostly the reason as to why Gyr Abania and Yanxia suffered so terribly. So, too, are the Resistance factions within each nation forced to shoulder some of the blame for making it difficult for a smooth transition to occur. Most nations within this city are perfectly happy to pick fights and conquer territory that does not belong to them until they themselves are the ones on the receiving end of such treatment. Limsa broke territorial treaties. Ul'dah caused a rival nation to fall and covered up the truth. Ishgard started a war with the Dravanians.

As for the developers painting the Garleans in a bad light? They have not done as such. In fact, most conflicts within this setting are developed with nuances in mind. It's pretty silly to ignore the fact that Zenos himself denounced Garlemald and was not working towards furthering Garlemald's cause. The Emperor himself even branded him a monster.

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble. They also chose to use blinding powder to sabotage Sekiseigumi patrols. Calling it an ambush is dishonest when the protagonists willingly journeyed to Hingashi to stir up trouble and cause a revolution. Why wouldn't the Garleans react to that if they caught wind of it? How can they be blamed for reacting when the purpose of the visit for the protagonists was to ignite a war that served to cause countless lives to be lost? Every last man, woman and child that perished stains both Zenos' hands and the hands of those who orchestrated the chaos on the Warrior of Light's side of the fence.

At any rate, getting back to the main matter at hand the point of the inability for Garleans to wield aether could be mitigated by the passage in the lorebook that states that some Garleans are capable of using it. Such a thing is rare but for the purpose of the main story a Garlean Warrior of Light would boast the power of the Echo at Hydaelyn's behest. Unless, of course, a completely new point of entry for the story happened to be developed which may be something that occurs in the future. The XIVth and XIIth Legions were also left largely to their own devices. With so many different Legions - each operating differently - it wouldn't exactly be a stretch for at least one of them to be more prone to diplomacy and negotiations. The Emperor himself isn't without rival factions, either - many have been crushed but there's potential for some to still remain in hiding.

Though, ideally, I think it'd be more interesting for Varys not to be a 'big bad' and instead come to see the merit of a truce. By all accounts he is a very great tactician and a similar approach to how the Nilfgaardian Empire is handled in The Witcher 3 could easily apply to FFXIV. The Warrior of Light and his allies do not need to push reform and install useful puppets everywhere they visit. It'd be very refreshing to see such an approach fail and require a more humble angle.

FFXII handled things exceptionally well too. A major plot point is the protagonists deciding against using excessive force in retaliation against The Archadian Empire because it would result in many innocent men, women and children perishing in the process. So, too, does that apply to FFXIV. Granted we also visit the capital of Archades during FFXII itself but I'm sure we'll do the same at some point in FFXIV - either in 5.0 or 6.0. One thing is almost certain, though - there will be yet more wonderful nuances that ensure such things are far from black and white.

It's going to be wonderful!

As an aside, for the longest time lore fans in WoW were constantly saying how it would be impossible for Worgen and Demon Hunters to be playable. You can say a lot of things about Blizzard's storytelling but they managed to implement both in a way that fit rather well. I see no reason why, in the future, Garleans could not be playable - we know that there's going to be at least two more expansions but it's also realistic to expect more beyond that. Unless we get another Final Fantasy MMO or the game suddenly ceases to be profitable I doubt we're going to have to worry about it dying off anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble. They also chose to use blinding powder to sabotage Sekiseigumi patrols. Calling it an ambush is dishonest when the protagonists willingly journeyed to Hingashi to stir up trouble and cause a revolution. Why wouldn't the Garleans react to that if they caught wind of it? How can they be blamed for reacting when the purpose of the visit for the protagonists was to ignite a war that served to cause countless lives to be lost? Every last man, woman and child that perished stains both Zenos' hands and the hands of those who orchestrated the chaos on the Warrior of Light's side of the fence.

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Iiii'm gonna contest this point here. Hingashi is a free nation and the Garlean Empire respects its independence. The WoL and the Scions did not arrive in Kugane to stir trouble in Kugane but to seek passage to Doma (THERE they aimed to stir up revolution and liberate Doma), so are the Garleans taking offense to plans of revolution in their conquered and subjugated territory? Yeah, but they are the invading force, the Scions are aiding the revolutionaries (or, as Ashelia B'nargin Dalmasca would say: "The Resistance") in part for their own agenda, true; and that's not to mention that the Garlean troops that ambushed us in Kugane are as much at fault of breaking the "no violence" treaty as we are since Hingashi is NOT their territory. I also take offense to the "sabotaging Sekisegumi patrols" thing, we used blinding powder (which doesn't seem to cause lasting damage and the quest even fails if you attack them) as opposed to killing them; we're not trying to harm the Sekisegumi, we're just trying to flee an ambush and not land in prison (we are technically guilty of breaking the law IN SELF-DEFENSE).

They didn't intend to stir trouble within Hingashi itself, no - but they did intend to cause trouble for a neighbouring nation and risked dragging Hingashi into things if it ended up going badly. As for the Sekiseigumi, it was supposedly 'harmless' but the act of being blinded abruptly causes an immense amount of distress and potentially pain as well. I'm sure everybody has gotten sand or dust within their eyes at some point - it isn't a pleasant experience at all. Now, the Garleans only broke the peace by assaulting the Warrior of Light and his allies. The Warrior of Light and his allies, meanwhile, broke the peace by assaulting both the Garleans and the Sekiseigumi. Thus they are the party most in the wrong in that particular case.

I agree with some of these arguments, but not with others. Still though, I'm happy that we can have such complex discussion on these topics! I'm going to handle these one on one since there's a lot to unpack here.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Zenos is mostly the reason as to why Gyr Abania and Yanxia suffered so terribly.

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This is incorrect. As soon as Zenos took control from Gaius I knew that people would be making these arguments, but they are unfortunately incorrect. While it is true that Zenos made the suffering in these regions far worse (instituting extra brutal policies in Gyr Abania, installing Yotsuyu in power) he is most definitely NOT the source of all of them. This is especially apparent in Ala Migho, where most of the problems for the population stretch back to Gaius's regime. Zenos did not create the slave camp of Radiata. Zenos did not utilize effective slave labor and not care whether or not the Ala Mighans die when constructing their bases and installations. Zenos did not create the Skulls, a unit shown to be explicitly oppressing the people. Zenos did not ruin the trades and livelihoods of the once prosperous quarrying market. Zenos did not ban the Ala Mighan Religion, nor was he responsible for the mass conscription which caused problems in countless examples. There is more of an argument to be made for Doma, but even then they are shown to be caught under repressive policies, face major discrimination, and have not benefited at all from neither Magitek or Imperial Rule.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

So, too, are the Resistance factions within each nation forced to shoulder some of the blame for making it difficult for a smooth transition to occur.

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There is some merit to this argument, but it in the end comes back to victim blaming. After all, it's not the fault of the ruthless conquerors for oppressing the people, it's the people's fault for resisting! If they just wouldn't' stand up, the Garleans wouldn't have to come and cut them back down to size! The logic of 'reprisals' for resisting oppression has been used by countless tyrannical empires in the past, and much of it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There was no 'peaceful transition of power' for many of these states. They were violated and conquered, so it's only logical that they might resent the Empire for it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Most nations within this city are perfectly happy to pick fights and conquer territory that does not belong to them until they themselves are the ones on the receiving end of such treatment. Limsa broke territorial treaties. Ul'dah caused a rival nation to fall and covered up the truth. Ishgard started a war with the Dravanians.

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What you're describing here is effectively the logical fallacy known as Whataboutism. Not to mention that the acts of those nations are not necessarily comparable to the incredible lengths that the Empire has gone to oppress the populace, and continue their ruthless exploitation. But to prevent myself acting hypocritical, I'll stop that here.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's pretty silly to ignore the fact that Zenos himself denounced Garlemald and was not working towards furthering Garlemald's cause. The Emperor himself even branded him a monster.

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A good point, I've actually planned on writing a big post on Zenos and his relation to previous antagonists! That being said, it doesn't exactly exonerate Garlemald of many of its atrocities, given that, as pointed out earlier, most of them were committed before he entered Ala Migho and Doma.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble.

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This requires an incredible misreading of events to the point of delusion. It's possible that you're misunderstanding the rules of Kugane, which might be the point of contention. Kugane's rules, however, are actually quite simple. It is an enforced neutrality, and an enforced peace. Outsiders are to set aside previous squabbles while within the city, and none are to bear arms or fight. Any who break these rules are to be either killed or banished by the Seikeisegumi. It's the relative simplicity of these rules that causes it to have the reputation as a playground for spies and political games between the nations, who can't handle their conflicts through simple violence. That being said, the Garlean soldiers clearly and blatantly violated these rules. They attempted to utilize lethal force despite the rules against it. They did not keep the peace in the slightest, and instead violated its dearest principles. Meanwhile the Scions merely acted in self defense. Reacting to the WoL's arrival is certainly logical, but they did not keep the peace.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At any rate, getting back to the main matter at hand the point of the inability for Garleans to wield aether could be mitigated by the passage in the lorebook that states that some Garleans are capable of using it.

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Definitely right! Although having the character be a half-blood would also be a good excuse. It also works since it would be a good explanation for why they would have left the Empire, Half-Bloods face a good deal of discrimination within Garlemald. Despite the inherent weaknesses of their bloodline, Garleans are very much proud of it. I personally doubt there will be a second point of entry though. Although it would certainly be fun, FFXIV seems to have a rather linear story, even compared to most MMOs. Having such a radically different storyline injected in later is unlikely. Not that I wouldn't mind having something like that.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

With so many different Legions - each operating differently - it wouldn't exactly be a stretch for at least one of them to be more prone to diplomacy and negotiations. The Emperor himself isn't without rival factions, either - many have been crushed but there's potential for some to still remain in hiding.

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This is totally true! I could definitely see something like that happening. Not to mention that it would align with some of the previous examples we've seen in the game of reforming tyrannical governments and dangerous groups. Of course it would be on a grander scale for the Empire than something like, say, Ishgard, but it's definitely possible. The game seems to generally place more blame on high members of governments and their cultures rather than the general citizenry. They even set up a faction already that opposed the extermination of Eikons and expansionist policies. So it's certainly possible we'll find some more sympathetic Garleans to team up with in the future.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

FFXII handled things exceptionally well too. A major plot point is the protagonists deciding against using excessive force in retaliation against The Archadian Empire because it would result in many innocent men, women and children perishing in the process.

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That would be a fascinating and interesting plot point, but at the same time we've seen no excessive force used against Garlemald. If anything it's only been applied in the opposite direction. It was the Garleans who have employed superweapons and the like in the past after all. Still though, that would be a cool direction to take the story in, although I'm currently unsure if that's what they will do.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Though, ideally, I think it'd be more interesting for Varys not to be a 'big bad' and instead come to see the merit of a truce.

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I agree that it might be more interesting that way...but at the moment Varis is clearly set up as one of our primary antagonists. Even just looking at the guy shows that much. And currently he has more interest in conquering Eorzea and committing Genocide on the beast tribes (and possibly the human races as well) meaning he's not exactly looking for truces right now. Although he is a good tactician, he still is shown to be exceedingly ruthless and sociopathic. The man was introduced spitting on his grandfather's coffin and reacted with more annoyance than anything at his son's death after all. Then again, the writers could surprise us! I'm looking forward to seeing how this will develop in the future.

To get back on track, I could definitely see Garleans as player characters in a future expansion, although I doubt they'd be siding with Garlemald necessarily. It'd just be way too much baggage to add to the plot if they couldn't assume the main character's political affiliations.

Eh, Varis doesn't strike me as a sociopath at all. He is a hard man, certainly, but his people have been persecuted in the past and grew powerful out of necessity to ensure their survival after being forced to relocate from fertile lands and carve out a living for themselves in what is essentially a derelict wasteland. Furthermore, leading a vast Empire is not an easy affair. There are many enemies and rivals to deal with both near and far. The lore book even reinforces such points when discussing the origins of Garlemald and the people who inhabit the region.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble. They also chose to use blinding powder to sabotage Sekiseigumi patrols. Calling it an ambush is dishonest when the protagonists willingly journeyed to Hingashi to stir up trouble and cause a revolution. Why wouldn't the Garleans react to that if they caught wind of it? How can they be blamed for reacting when the purpose of the visit for the protagonists was to ignite a war that served to cause countless lives to be lost? Every last man, woman and child that perished stains both Zenos' hands and the hands of those who orchestrated the chaos on the Warrior of Light's side of the fence.

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What? The WoL came into Kugane and just wanted to get a ship to travel towards Doma. Garlemald paid that Namazou money, so that he will tell them if someone wants a boat towards Doma, so that they can attack them. This is what happened to Gosetsu. He was asking around and got the attention of the Garlean soldiers. They set him up and attacked him (even though this was not allowed by the rule of the city) and made it look like he was at fault and that was the reason why he was arrested. They again did the same with WoL and his allies, who only looked for a traveling vehicle. They did not attack them or anything. They were set up for a trap and when they were attacked by the Garlean soldiers they defended themselves. How in any way can this even be interpreted that it was the WoLs fault? So in the end Garlemald attacked anyone that asked for a travel to Doma because they believed them to be rebels. They were the aggressors who went against the laws. After we were sent to a trap we could not just hand us over to the ruling body so we needed to use those smoke grenades to make a disappearance. Also at that time nobody of them even knew that a group of people would travel from Eorzea to Doma to cause trouble, so no these Garlean soldiers where the one attacking first.