Premades Don’t Break Frontline — They Broke the Illusion of the Horde Stampede

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

At this point, it's clear that you don't fully understand what you're talking about.
I strongly oppose the idea of using premade groups as a scapegoat
How anyone could twist that into suggesting I support forcing everyone to play in premades is beyond me.

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Half your posts on this forum is you shouting down anyone who wants premades to be banned from FL. I'm sorry that you do not understand how you are propagating the culture of premade stomping, but at some point you'll have to look at the effects of your behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Half your posts on this forum is you shouting down anyone who wants premades to be banned from FL. I'm sorry that you do not understand how you are propagating the culture of premade stomping, but at some point you'll have to look at the effects of your behaviour.

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Yes, it's true.
I am firmly against the idea of banning premades from Frontline.
The way you used the term “shut down” is interesting.
Is it because I present my arguments in a clear, reasonable, and organized manner?
And perhaps it's harder to dismiss me as simply a "premade defender" when I’m actually a very active solo queue player myself?
I believe my stance and behavior are completely fair
I genuinely do not agree with the notion that players should lose the right to enjoy Frontline content with their friends.

Also, most of my posts are strongly critical of Horde premade stomping and the damage it has done to the NA PvP community
Especially during that infamous three-month Onsal Hakair lockdown, which I’ve consistently blamed for degrading match quality and changing player behavior
So I honestly don’t understand where the idea comes from that “half of my posts are about defending premades” or “shutting down” the conversation.
Is it simply because I happen to be on the opposite side of the argument from you?

Frontline combines:

1. Dedicated premades of highly-skilled players whose objective is to maximize their win-rate;

2. Premades of either friends or Discord members whose primary objective is padding, or to carry out vendettas against other similar premades;

3. Skilled solo players with thousands of FL matches who dominate K/D/A in the absence of premades;

4. Achievement/glam/XP hunters who try their best;

5. Achievement/glam/XP hunters who actively avoid combat and/or disrupt games by feeding/throwing.

Even if you banned 2 and 5 (on the grounds they're violating ToS), the mix of 1, 3 and 4 works poorly.

First, most (but not all) players in groups 3 and 4 prefer matches in which group 1 is absent. Thus banning group 1 mostly solves the problem, but at a considerable cost.

The solution suggested by members of group 1 boils down to demanding that everyone else suddenly gets better at playing the mode, in the specific context of synergizing with and countering the group 1 premades. This will never happen in NA/EU.

We've discussed at length elsewhere having solo-only queues and dividing the players up by win-rate. The latter basically filters the group 1 premades into the same matches, along with the better solo players. It probably requires DC consolidation/x-DC queues to keep queue times down.

I believe Valence's point is that many of the current problems with the mode stem from the nature of the combat system and available spells and skills. I think there's merit in that, but I suspect it's much harder to fix.

The title of this thread is pure fiction. The premades on NA with the highest win-rates employ a well-known guide, a central feature of which is a marker that everyone is instructed to follow. In that sense, premades are the source of the horde stampede.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

If 4 people can defeat 24 people, don't you think the 24 are doing something horrendously wrong?

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I wouldn't describe choosing not to join a Discord light party on vc as doing something "horrendously wrong," particularly when FL is the only large-scale PvP mode that pops.

I would agree, however, that when a premade dominates an entire enemy alliance, that enemy alliance lacks highly-skilled players. Unfortunately, this is inevitable when players of all skill levels are placed on the same battlefield. This is why some form of MMR is used in most PvP modes/games.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Just saying, 2.0 Secure when there were 8-mans from all three GCs running around seeking each other out was the best that Frontlines ever was, and will ever be again.

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If it was any good, one wonders why it was scrapped?

That said, I think a 24v24v24 in which the three alliances in each team had a commander would be a fascinating mode. It's one reason I'd like to see custom FL matches. But 8-person premades with the current rules and player base would just take seal clubbing to another level. Fun for the few, miserable for the many.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I wouldn't describe choosing not to join a Discord light party on vc as doing something "horrendously wrong," particularly when FL is the only large-scale PvP mode that pops.

I would agree, however, that when a premade dominates an entire enemy alliance, that enemy alliance lacks highly-skilled players. Unfortunately, this is inevitable when players of all skill levels are placed on the same battlefield. This is why some form of MMR is used in most PvP modes/games.

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The thing is, it's not a case of 4 players defeating 24 players. Premades corral and pester the other 20 players on their team to obey the premade's designated strategy and follow the premade's chosen leader. With 20 allies backing them up, the 4 highly coordinated players can ensure they're always in the most advantageous position of their team, use their allies to pad their kills and assists, and leverage their allies as human shields before they sound the macro to retreat to guarantee they're always ahead of the crowd and with low risk of dying. These aren't "highly skilled" players in premades. Once you strip away the advantages of being in a discord call with 4 friends and having 20 bodyguards on the field, they're shown to be just above average.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

The thing is, it's not a case of 4 players defeating 24 players. Premades corral and pester the other 20 players on their team to obey the premade's designated strategy and follow the premade's chosen leader. With 20 allies backing them up, the 4 highly coordinated players can ensure they're always in the most advantageous position of their team, use their allies to pad their kills and assists, and leverage their allies as human shields before they sound the macro to retreat to guarantee they're always ahead of the crowd and with low risk of dying. These aren't "highly skilled" players in premades. Once you strip away the advantages of being in a discord call with 4 friends and having 20 bodyguards on the field, they're shown to be just above average.

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Hmmm... I'd agree that a light party on voice doesn't need to be particularly skilled to dominate a match, but there are a handful of genuinely good shot-callers who have superior map awareness and recognize the best attack points based purely on spawn positions.

Whether one wishes to be ordered around by a self-appointed commander is a separate discussion, of course. I personally have issues with authority figures, particularly when I wasn't given the opportunity to vote for them.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Hmmm... I'd agree that a light party on voice doesn't need to be particularly skilled to dominate a match, but there are a handful of genuinely good shot-callers who have superior map awareness and recognize the best attack points based purely on spawn positions.

Whether one wishes to be ordered around by a self-appointed commander is a separate discussion, of course. I personally have issues with authority figures, particularly when I wasn't given the opportunity to vote for them.

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Tbh I don't view shot calling as a particularly advanced talent, personally. It takes a little practice and requires a little attention, yes, but having your map open and knowing the current score is like 70% of the job.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

If it was any good, one wonders why it was scrapped?

That said, I think a 24v24v24 in which the three alliances in each team had a commander would be a fascinating mode. It's one reason I'd like to see custom FL matches. But 8-person premades with the current rules and player base would just take seal clubbing to another level. Fun for the few, miserable for the many.

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Easy. It wasn't "scrapped". Changes were made meant to accommodate all further modes they added that negatively impacted Secure, such as the following:
*Adding battle high
*Awarding points for kills instead of holding capture zones and breaking nodes
*Increasing mount speed
*Adding the middle ramp to each base
*Adding forced freelance to everyone
*Reducing premade maximums

Because SE wanted to innovate, try new things, and make changes under the notion of "increasing accessibility" and all they've done is lure more people who don't wanna be there in the first place.

Let's not sit here and dote on SE like their decision-making is always for the better.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Easy. It wasn't "scrapped". Changes were made meant to accommodate all further modes they added that negatively impacted Secure, such as the following:
*Adding battle high
*Awarding points for kills instead of holding capture zones and breaking nodes
*Increasing mount speed
*Adding the middle ramp to each base
*Adding forced freelance to everyone
*Reducing premade maximums

Because SE wanted to innovate, try new things, and make changes under the notion of "increasing accessibility" and all they've done is lure more people who don't wanna be there in the first place.

Let's not sit here and dote on SE like their decision-making is always for the better.

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Very fair point.

I guess the issue then is what worked for Secure 2.0 would not work on the other maps?

I have to say in any given match these days, I get far more irritated by people hiding behind rocks than I do by a light party leading the charge.