Please help me understand why/how Chaotic one last time? (because I'm done)

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Why did they do this?

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They acknowledged that in Endwalker, a lot of it was solo content. They also acknowledged that large-scale content such as Field Operations, BA and DRS were still active. They also had a lot of criticism that Endwalker alliance raids were too easy.

So you see, they knocked 3 heads with one stone:

• 24 people is a lot more social.
• It adds a bit more variety than just BA and DRS in terms of large-scale raids that involve coordination or callouts, in addition to whatever we get with the Field Operations.
• It's more challenging than alliance raids.

Now you might wonder: why not just make regular alliance raids more challenging?

They answered this about a week ago. They said a lot of people want to return the difficulty to Weeping City or Ivalice level difficulty (I agree), but they said that if they made mechanics like that now, players would find them easy because they are better at the game now, so they would actually have to make it a lot harder than those raids. If they make them harder, casual players will find them too difficult.

They have still tried to make the Dawntrail alliance raids harder or have fresh mechanic ideas, but they wanted to make a version that would satisfy those who didn't want them to hold back so much.

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I gather they put Ultimate BiS gear in here is that right?

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They put gear on par with the item level of Savage. If you just do Ultimate with Savage gear you'll be fine. How do I know? Because people already have.

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They just won't tolerate wasting a second of their time. I don't blame them. I expect its 'necessary'.

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That's a description that applies to a lot of veteran players in any MMORPG, not just Ultimate raiders. They know the most efficient way to do everything. Therefore, they do it the most efficient way. Which sometimes makes them obnoxious to be around because newer players don't know the most efficient ways yet.

That's why you have to remind yourself that they're newer and just want to take their time and accept it (this is something I learned before even playing this game). Veteran players of any MMORPG need to remind themselves to let new players just do it in an inefficient way, because they're trying to absorb the first time experience, not farm it in the most efficient way possible.

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Originally Posted by Valence

SE does not understand that their current pve model doesn't lend itself at all to people helping each other. They've made it so individualistic with lists of patterns to execute (or die/wipe the raid) per player that you'd be hard pressed to have people supporting each other. As I've said in another thread, this only forces people to "put up with each other" rather than helping.

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This is pretty spot on and the other reason why I currently don't bother with PvE atm other than the job-design.
Why bother throwing that healer or tank buff to a player standing in the wrong place, who's gonna get one-shot and wipe the raid anyway...

You either play the memory game and watch hours of confusing guides beforehand or prepare to be a burden to 7 others - no thanks I rather play an encouraging co-op game instead fighting againt 7 others hoping they stand on the right pixel for 11 minutes

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They answered this about a week ago. They said a lot of people want to return the difficulty to Weeping City or Ivalice level difficulty (I agree), but they said that if they made mechanics like that now, players would find them easy because they are better at the game now, so they would actually have to make it a lot harder than those raids. If they make them harder, casual players will find them too difficult.

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Why not start cutting most attack cast times by half for starters, I can easily RP-walk out of most myth alliance attacks it's absolutely hilarious and sad. But what's worse, people are so used to the baby mode difficulty in previous content, they never really needed to improve to pass a little obstacle.
Fights should NOT be 80% tutorial and start to get interesting when the boss is about to die

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

Fights should NOT be 80% tutorial and start to get interesting when the boss is about to die

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That last 20% also very quickly becomes the last 2%.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

1. it was actually highly requested, but there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on supposedly what the difficulty level was meant to be. Although it's well received by a fraction of players, I think people were still expecting an actual alliance raid, not just a person-bloated trial. I think a lot of people that requested this were expecting something akin to BA-level difficulty for 24-people.

2. They put gear equivalent to BiS, this includes equivalent to current augmented Tomestone and Savage gear.

3. The problem isn't anything to do with Ultimate raiders, as there is no reason why an extreme-level or savage-level raider cannot keep up with Ultimate raiders in this specific piece of content. The problem is they put rewards which they knew were highly sought after across every sphere in this game, as a means to try and bump up those completion rates. But ultimately all they have done is funneled a lot of ill-equipped players into content that is not only at least extreme-level difficulty but has body checks in large scale content.

All of these issues are exacerbated by people not necessarily being the most truthful or up-front about their prog-point, so you end up with people that may not necessarily understand the fight in its entirety joining a kill party, when in reality they may still only be halfway through the fight, and in some instances they may only be doing this to skip being grouped with people that are for eternity wiping on body-checks.

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i think the Dungeons from Bozja were a perfect fit for this
some funky 24 - 48 mechanics that require a whole different mindset and teamwork
that was super fun...
but this... one person dies, and gets revived wrong, ends up in the wrong spot
can and will lead to an immediate wipe, unless VERY lucky and people kill themselfs to save others

i expected choatic to be on the same level as Bozja Savage... but this... this is just horrible and makes me wanna just punch my monitor after the 200th wipe due to bloody towers

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

All of these issues are exacerbated by people not necessarily being the most truthful or up-front about their prog-point, so you end up with people that may not necessarily understand the fight in its entirety joining a kill party, when in reality they may still only be halfway through the fight, and in some instances they may only be doing this to skip being grouped with people that are for eternity wiping on body-checks.

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Prog liars really stand out in this content - it's always been a thing over the years, like someone joining a Titan EX kill back in ARR, but they've never seen the adds for example, with 8 people you can more easily tell if someone is telling a lie, or they just get lucky and weasel their way through. In this content, given the bonus structure, we're seeing a lot of parties who have cleared accepting P3/enrage players - I don't believe most of the people who join are at enrage prog point, they are hoping for a carry, maybe through either thinking "it's a 24 man, I can just coast through" or just pure ignorance on what the fight actually is.

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Originally Posted by Lauwen

Prog liars really stand out in this content - it's always been a thing over the years, like someone joining a Titan EX kill back in ARR, but they've never seen the adds for example, with 8 people you can more easily tell if someone is telling a lie, or they just get lucky and weasel their way through. In this content, given the bonus structure, we're seeing a lot of parties who have cleared accepting P3/enrage players - I don't believe most of the people who join are at enrage prog point, they are hoping for a carry, maybe through either thinking "it's a 24 man, I can just coast through" or just pure ignorance on what the fight actually is.

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I agree that prog liars are a big problem here and I think many just do it because they are getting tired of this content and wiping again and again.

BUT

Them being such a huge problem just tells that the difficulty is way overtuned no matter what some may think. For originally being targeted at Ex difficulty SOME prog liars shouldn't be such a huge problem or at worst result in a hard dps check.
Even in some savage fights you can not know what to do after a specific point and yet clear easily.
The other thing is that not everyone is a prog liar just because they mess up sometimes. The mechanics are easy in a vacuum but there so damn many back to back with little room for failure that it is natural that people screw up even those who cleared.

The worst of all is that I start to see toxity forming in PF like... really bad ones to a point where I am short of not joining clear groups anymore because prog parties are just way more chill.

I go in with the assumption that people didn't lie but just messed up. And that's especially possible in such a "chaotic" raid (pretty deserving of this description tbh). But my assumption is wrong of course, I just want to imagine that everyone is honest.

With more spaced out, orderly, less chaotic fights like Extreme or Savage, it's rather more obvious they are lying. But I don't think all of them view it as lying. Many of them:

• Didn't read the description.
• Interpreted "be up to p3" as "have seen up to p3 but usually with deaths, vulns, bleeds and damage downs".
• Interpreted "be up to p3" as "having seen p3 one time".
• Maybe got through earlier phases consistently because they had someone carrying them hard ie. a healer spamming shields, or a tank 100% managing the aggro for a co-tank with provoke/shirk/shared mit and adjusting for them because they don't know what provoke/shirk/mit is (I've had to do this for people before).

I see people who join when they aren't ready as just not very considerate.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

The worst of all is that I start to see toxity forming in PF like... really bad ones to a point where I am short of not joining clear groups anymore because prog parties are just way more chill.

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This so much... and the 5-15 different parties for basically the same thing, spreading much needed players even thinner... then you wait 30+ min in PF to the point you basically do a few pulls and then gotta go or someone has to leave.

I legit rather play something else when im knowing i got less then 2-3 hours time, because im not gonna waste half of it waiting...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

• Maybe got through earlier phases consistently because they had someone carrying them hard ie. a healer spamming shields, or a tank 100% managing the aggro for a co-tank with provoke/shirk/shared mit and adjusting for them because they don't know what provoke/shirk/mit is (I've had to do this for people before).

I see people who join when they aren't ready as just not very considerate.

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I did spam so many shields yesterday lol

But this is so true - ive had tanks with 6-7 lightning stacks not realizing they might should switch, with neither of them realizing. Dude its lv 100. Even if you dont tank much, you should have that basic idea.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

But this is so true - ive had tanks with 6-7 lightning stacks not realizing they might should switch, with neither of them realizing. Dude its lv 100. Even if you dont tank much, you should have that basic idea.

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To be fair, there are a lot of other mechanics going on while those are building. Sometimes it gets messed up in there if another tanks dies and the boss begins adding more stacks to you.

But it's true generally you could have a healer just carrying with Esuna for Doom, shields, etc. And then they wonder why they can't get far in the next party.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They also had a lot of criticism that Endwalker alliance raids were too easy.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They have still tried to make the Dawntrail alliance raids harder or have fresh mechanic ideas, but they wanted to make a version that would satisfy those who didn't want them to hold back so much.

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They tried so much that Jeuno isn't much harder if at all (wait to see how it's gonna feel to run it in 7.5... by the way even at release we already skipped that Doom cast from the last boss and I've seen it only exactly once in my life so far)...
Which leads us to...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They answered this about a week ago. They said a lot of people want to return the difficulty to Weeping City or Ivalice level difficulty (I agree), but they said that if they made mechanics like that now, players would find them easy because they are better at the game now, so they would actually have to make it a lot harder than those raids. If they make them harder, casual players will find them too difficult.

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...The change of paradigm. Everything is more binary and individualistic than ever. What wiped alliances in Ivalice and whatnot was just not people being worse, it was also that you had something else to juggle with next to the encounter, so of course older content is going to seem piss easy by now.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

[*]24 people is a lot more social.

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Besides the usual limited talk of getting into PF, telling you take R1 or M2 or whatever position, and then going at it, wiping, and seeing people mald more than usual, I guess it's more social due to the salt?