Fixing Mch

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

That was always the point though. Brd and Dnc are suppose to give enough buffs to the entire party that they make up for their lower dps and make them viable options, while Mch is suppose to be the Greedy Ranged that deals enough damage to make it a viable option. However, as it stands right now, Mch isn't a viable option at all it. Last I checked it wasn't even beating out Brd or Dnc in DPS the category it's suppose to focus on.

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Yeah, but the point is that the overall - after buff contribution - should be competitive between the 3 of them. I know right now is not a good picture because MCH is too low - but then if it's too high we just invert the problem.

DNC and BRD are supposed to have low personal dps by design, but in the end all that matters is that plus the "outsourced contribution" given by the buffs.

If somehow the status quo gets a rebalance by increasing MCH's personal potency to be on par with DNC and BRD's rdps, it would be a never-ending balancing game every patch, to match the gains those jobs get with other people's new ilevels of gear. That's why I think MCH as a selfish dps in this group is an unsustainable choice.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Bringing back the bishop turret found in its current pvp form would be a boon for the job and would not only refit it closer to the ranged physical stated purpose of "buffing support job" as described on the XIV job guide page, but also bring unique pulsing barriers to toy with for support tools.

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Yea my thought was to bring it back how it use to be. You summon it onto the field where it does auto-attacks, then you trigger a skill that makes it apply a debuff on the enemy with the auto attacks that acts as a support for the rest of the party. Which is what it current does in pvp, plus the added benefit of not having to redeploy if some how a pack of mobs lasts long enough for a second go.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Yeah, but the point is that the overall - after buff contribution - should be competitive between the 3 of them. I know right now is not a good picture because MCH is too low - but then if it's too high we just invert the problem.

DNC and BRD are supposed to have low personal dps by design, but in the end all that matters is that plus the "outsourced contribution" given by the buffs.

If somehow the status quo gets a rebalance by increasing MCH's personal potency to be on par with DNC and BRD's rdps, it would be a never-ending balancing game every patch, to match the gains those jobs get with other people's new ilevels of gear. That's why I think MCH as a selfish dps in this group is an unsustainable choice.

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If we drop that then we move back to the current problem we're having with all jobs. That being homogenization. If you remove the core identity of Mch it's just gonna be Brd and Dnc. Sure it'll be easier to balance then, but it's also not going to be any different to play. Bring back it's old random chance mechanics as a buffer, well then it's just Dnc. Don't bring them back then it's just a less flashy Brd. It needs to keep it's identity as the Self Burst DPS, or at least the Self Ranged DPS. Honestly the solution would probably be to bring it back to the Highest Burst DPS while having very low dps between bursts. This would mean the sustained damage buffs of Brd and Dnc would still be viable, and Mch could keep it's identity while holding an actual useful place in the party. But that would involve them needing to make DPS checks important in fights again.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Yeah, but the point is that the overall - after buff contribution - should be competitive between the 3 of them. I know right now is not a good picture because MCH is too low - but then if it's too high we just invert the problem.

DNC and BRD are supposed to have low personal dps by design, but in the end all that matters is that plus the "outsourced contribution" given by the buffs.

If somehow the status quo gets a rebalance by increasing MCH's personal potency to be on par with DNC and BRD's rdps, it would be a never-ending balancing game every patch, to match the gains those jobs get with other people's new ilevels of gear. That's why I think MCH as a selfish dps in this group is an unsustainable choice.

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We're repeating the same patterns than in Endwalker so far. Rphys (and SMN/RDM) start 8-10% in total combined damage (personal + raid buffs + raid buff use aka cDPS) behind the melees + BLM/PCT, will probably get buffed a little for the next tiers and the difference may go down to 5ish % as it did in EW later. MCH also starts even lower than BRD/DNC exactly like in EW (I believe at EW launch it was somewhere like 13% behind the melees, absolutely batshit insane), and got buffed with every ranged for x.1, but also had to be rebuffed individually regularly because it just can't follow gear stat increases due to playing into raid buffs less well than actual selfish DPS jobs worth their salt.

MCH is in a terrible position bc I feel like the devs look at phys ranged as a whole and say "ehh they have free movement and it's easier to play, so we can worry about that later".

I only play MCH in ST fights. It feels SO bad to use in AoE content. The rotation for AoE is awkward and unsatisfying.

Flamethrower is basically an emote and that fixes you in place. Why not just give us the option to place a flamethrowing turret down instead?

Auto Crossbow doesn't recharge the oGCDs which is weird in itself.

I honestly want them to make Wildfire be able to crit (no not auto crit) or just scrap it altogether.

I honestly think that the job gimmick should be piloting a mech to do enhanced abilities. Outside of the burst, you set up with machinery to power said burst.

It's stuck inbetween wanting to be a gunslinger and an engineer.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

MCH is in a terrible position bc I feel like the devs look at phys ranged as a whole and say "ehh they have free movement and it's easier to play, so we can worry about that later".

I only play MCH in ST fights. It feels SO bad to use in AoE content. The rotation for AoE is awkward and unsatisfying.

Flamethrower is basically an emote and that fixes you in place. Why not just give us the option to place a flamethrowing turret down instead?

Auto Crossbow doesn't recharge the oGCDs which is weird in itself.

I honestly want them to make Wildfire be able to crit (no not auto crit) or just scrap it altogether.

I honestly think that the job gimmick should be piloting a mech to do enhanced abilities. Outside of the burst, you set up with machinery to power said burst.

It's stuck inbetween wanting to be a gunslinger and an engineer.

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I don't think Mch being a Gunslinging Engineer is a bad thing. It's a pretty solid techno fantasy archetype, which is the place the genre that FFXIV falls into. Even during 1.0, that's to Garlemald being Garlemald, it's been a Techno Fantasy, and Mch leans more into the Tech than the Fantasy side of it. So using Gadgets and Guns kinda feels right for it. Even in the quests for the class we're advancing technology for defensive and offensive measures, mostly offensive.

That being said I do think we need more proper Tech based jobs. Right now we have Mch, and on a technicality Sge and Gnb. However, Sge is more fine tuned magic tools, and Gnb does really keep the TECH feel. So getting a proper tech job would probably help. I could see a Mech focused job as more of a Tank thing.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

So getting a proper tech job would probably help. I could see a Mech focused job as more of a Tank thing.

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I think depending on the next phys ranged job, it just might be.

I do think they kind of messed up with MCH. I would have preferred a pet based type of engineer that upgrades his tools/mecha as the gimmick.

A proper gunslinger job should have been the new phys ranged job, focusing on using different guns.

Alas, another BRD/Ranger situation.

I don't mind the split between gunslinger and engineer fantasy, but I just wished they would lean more into the engineering aspect.

MCH used to have pets and COULD upgrade and tinker with them notably in HW with Turret Promotion (swapping damage to MP/TP party sustain) and old Hypercharge that was doubling damage or sustain depending on the turret's mode, and applying target vuln to targets (aka raid buffs). Now it's like a glorified modern summoner.

I do feel like not enough people realize how much has been lost on that job since ShB axed everything. I've raided savage with it for this tier, and I can confidently say that it still feels like a shit sandwich, and like for ShB where I dropped the job immediately after the first tier, I'm gonna do the same here. It's too bad, because I've always loved the aesthetic of the job.

from what I've heard of it, it seemed like MCH didn't have range tax before ShB and managed it by being much more complex to play? I do think it's acceptable for the job to do dps comparable to BLM/VPR/SAM if more gauge management and RNG were involved, diverting attention to your UIs more in exchange for less focus on positioning.

If the current playstyle should be kept for those who do enjoy it that should be moved to a new rphys job imo.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

MCH is in a terrible position bc I feel like the devs look at phys ranged as a whole and say "ehh they have free movement and it's easier to play, so we can worry about that later".

I only play MCH in ST fights. It feels SO bad to use in AoE content. The rotation for AoE is awkward and unsatisfying.

Flamethrower is basically an emote and that fixes you in place. Why not just give us the option to place a flamethrowing turret down instead?

Auto Crossbow doesn't recharge the oGCDs which is weird in itself.

I honestly want them to make Wildfire be able to crit (no not auto crit) or just scrap it altogether.

I honestly think that the job gimmick should be piloting a mech to do enhanced abilities. Outside of the burst, you set up with machinery to power said burst.

It's stuck inbetween wanting to be a gunslinger and an engineer.

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I wish you could at least turn or move with a speed penalty(like Powerful Shot and Blast Charge in PvP) while channeling Flamethrower. The fact that any movement at all instantly cancels something on a 1-minute CD and is so awkward to use in a way that actually makes it worth using just makes me not bother with it.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

from what I've heard of it, it seemed like MCH didn't have range tax before ShB and managed it by being much more complex to play? I do think it's acceptable for the job to do dps comparable to BLM/VPR/SAM if more gauge management and RNG were involved, diverting attention to your UIs more in exchange for less focus on positioning.

If the current playstyle should be kept for those who do enjoy it that should be moved to a new rphys job imo.

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There in lines the problem that triggered SE to change it in the first place. People that enjoyed Mch understood that and how the job played and could really get he damage out, the problem came to people that didn't understand it. A lot of them complained that the job was too "Clunky", and they couldn't figure out how to make it work. Every other job at the time had set rotations usually within a 1min window that they could line up with everyone else, but not mch. Mch you had to think about stuff like how long other classes had for their buffs to come up and weather it was worth holding a skill for it. Mch damage also confused the people that weren't well versed in MMO's at the time. Most experienced MMO players understood Mch was a burst DPS, so when they Bursted it was BIG numbers, but between bursts they did very little damage. So since many of them didn't know how to read DPS charts at the time, they thought Mch wasn't really doing that much damage, but in truth they were usually in the top 3 of overall damage.