Some DRK changes seem annoyingly simple yet are ignored....

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

TBN has nothing to do with the degradation of MP management.

What you're doing is like blaming Shinten/Kyuten for the loss of unique costs on Guren/Senei and the pruning of Kaiten and Seigan and if Yaten/Gyoten lost their Kenki costs and damage. They're not the cause; they're the sole survivors.

Likewise, Dark Arts, MP costs on other skills, etc., all existed simultaneously with TBN. The same period in which we got TBN also gave us the most involve MP manipulations and thematic means of sustain that we've ever had, and to which TBN was synergetic, not mutually exclusive.

TBN didn't remove Darkside, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, or spammable Abyssal Drain. It's simply the sole survivor of intentional simplifications.


Costing MP is, however, the reason TBN can be as flexible as it is, allowing 50% barrier HP (2 casts at 25% each) compressed into as little as 9 seconds. Meanwhile, embedding Oblation into it would both waste its scaling value on non-tanks targets and make TBN itself less flexible.

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I never said it "killed" MP management, I said it's CURRENTLY the reason why they can't expand on it, not without other overhauls.

If you seriously think everything would be fine if more MP skills were added, then provide me an example? What could CBU3 add into the DRK's kit that would add more uniqueness to it that cost MP while not getting in the way of the current playstyle of burning it on Edge and making sure to have enough for TBN? Cause if you tried mixing in something like my suggestion for without TBN costing MP then you simply make having enough for TBN so easy that the cost again becomes pointless.

TBN can also be just as flexible even if it didn't cost MP. People said nearly the same thing when I was advocating for LD to get updated, to just mostly remove the drawbacks of so easily dying when you used it, and I was always met with a wall of "but then it becomes too strong and they have to make it weaker to balance it which will result in it losing all of it's identity," but hey look at that they mostly removed the drawbacks and it's fucking awesome without being OP and is even more unique! I soundly believe it would be the same for TBN, it's just a shield, allow it to be flexible and also remove it's MP cost so that the MP usage can be expanded on again.

EDIT: You added a lot after I started my reply lol

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The upgrades literally reduce skill ceiling compared to the original version of those skills. The HoTs make a large portion of their on skill's sustain less responsive, less important to time correctly / more worth simply hitting on CD, and Excog is literally autonomous. The inflated upper first half with extended window, meanwhile, reduces the reward of preemptive activations.

And TBN's reward isn't "use damage ability you'd have used anyways". That's neutral. Its auxiliary reward is MP-banking, since you can spend 3k MP before raid buffs to then have an extra 3k MP's to spend during raid buffs. Which is itself trumped by the flexibility of the actual defensive.


Not remotely my point. You are claiming that TBN is incompatible with more involved MP management, but anyone who played before Shadowbringers knows it wasn't. Anyone who played earlier has literally played with far more involved MP management even outside of TBN and would remember that TBN was synergetic with those other, and far more numerous, sources of depth, not mutually exclusive with them.

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Skills being stronger doesn't automatically mean "easier," but again as I already said I don't think the other tank's defensive CDs are "skill intensive," I do think they're all easy to use and yet TBN is even easier still. But yeah, it's main reward is infact "use damage ability you lost otherwise," the auxiliary bonus of such a small "bank" of MP at buff windows isn't "hard" to pull off as it just requires a single button press and still results in the same scenario as every other instance of it's use. You hit it, forget it, button lights up later, hit it. You don't have to time anything or combo anything with it, you just press it, it's the easiest to use tank defensive there is.

And yeah, there used to be A LOT more MP management, that is MY point too. NOW it's become a limiter cause of all of the changes up to this point in time.

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

I never said it "killed" MP management, I said it's CURRENTLY the reason why they can't expand on it, not without other overhauls.

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But it's not. TBN does not need to give (modern) "Dark Arts" nor the name "Dark Arts" be limited to giving free Edge/Flood casts. Edge/Flood is not TBN. TBN does not need to give free Edges/Floods. Nor did it originally give free Edges/Floods.

They simply had TBN go from giving empowered GCDs (via 50 Blood, which you'd spend on Bloodspiller or Quietus for a boost over combo average ppgcd worth X potency-per-MP spent) to giving oGCD attacks because their Shadowbringers simplifications included removing Dark Arts, which would otherwise have left DRK with a massive apm gulch to fill that would have otherwise upset even more DRK players.

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Cause if you tried mixing in something like my suggestion for without TBN costing MP then you simply make having enough for TBN so easy that the cost again becomes pointless.

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Then don't make it not cost MP?

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If you seriously think everything would be fine if more MP skills were added, then provide me an example? What could CBU3 add into the DRK's kit that would add more uniqueness to it that cost MP while not getting in the way of the current playstyle of burning it on Edge and making sure to have enough for TBN?

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Literally Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, with

• each Dark Arts offensive spender not on a CD having X effective-potency-per-MP-spent plus varied utility (be that banked MP, additional healing done, suppression, or what-have-you),
• the rotational CD-locked offensive spenders (Shadowbringers, Carve and Spit) having higher effective-potency-per-MP-spent, directly or indirectly (as per follow-up buffs) to encourage margining for them as well,
• the other (non-TBN) defensive spenders, if any, generally having enough indirect rDPS value via whatever combination of saved healer GCDs/resources and/or counteroffensive attacks/buffs to be frequently optimal over non-CD directly offensive spenders (except when their burst healing or damage is more necessary at that particular moment) until overgearing content,
• and successfully popped TBNs again giving Blood (even if allowed an overcap margin for reduced skill floor), with said Blood spenders being tuned over combo appgcd sufficiently to compete with Dark Arts for successful pops only, and
• more MP actively generated per minute (instead of merely having costs nullified via CDs) such that one can more often burst in multiple means of sustain into the same TBN CD's period and for more APM between bursts (even if we might, say, have a couple actions less per 2-minute burst)...

...as would befit any actually involved use of a gauge.

Again, what you're saying is the equivalent to "We can't have Kaiten because we already have Shinten." You can have competing spenders, and the MP gauge would be better utilized for it.

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

Skills being stronger doesn't automatically mean "easier,"

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Not inherently, no, but it does when the strengths added specifically deemphasize skillful timing.

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I do think they're all easy to use and yet TBN is even easier still.

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But it's not. It's literally not. Start learning how to bank and pre-pop it. I get that the game right now, once geared, is frequently too easy to see the difference, but that goes even more all the other on-demands.

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But yeah, it's main reward is infact "use damage ability you lost otherwise,"

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Something net-neutral literally cannot be a "reward". Again, the reward has to earn you something. In TBN's case, it's subtle but still existent: an extra Edge/Flood under raid buffs because you can use it to, in effect, bank 3k MP.

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And yeah, there used to be A LOT more MP management, that is MY point too.

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Which, again, TBN did not remove. TBN's entry introduced the height of DRK's MP manipulations, even when discounting TBN itself. If it were the limiter, it would not have existed simultaneously with that, let alone been synergetic to it.

TBN is the most fun button DRK has with a small amount of strategy involved in using it in casual play. Being able to TBN someone who you expect to stand in orange, or to improve someone else's uptime, is truly delightful.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They simply had TBN .... would have otherwise upset even more DRK players.

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You have a fundamental misunderstanding for what I'm saying, it seems, evident by your suggestions;

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Literally Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, with [LIST]each Dark Arts offensive spender not on a CD having X effective-potency-per-MP-spent plus varied utility (be that banked MP, additional healing done, suppression, or what-have-you)

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You're fully in the realm of "complete overhaul/rework."

The thing is I do completely agree with that, if we could get a full rework to the job then I too think a reintroduction of Dark Arts would be a good route to take and TBN staying an MP ability would fit so much better in a kit where you're building and using MP far more frequently.

But as I've mentioned a few times now, maybe not clearly enough, we've come so far down this current iteration that those options don't work anymore, my suggestions for "easy changes" are deliberately made so the devs might actually do them.

So in THAT scenario, without overhauling the whole MP system, what new ability at the start of an expansion without any other major changes could be added into the kit that costs MP and does not interfere with the current Edge/TBN gameplay? Cause that's the reality we're in, we're not getting a major overhaul.

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Not inherently, no, but it does when the strengths added specifically deemphasize skillful timing.

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I honestly don't think basic timing is all that "skillful," I guess, utilizing the abilities afterwards is far more "skill" expressive, but again not that I think the other tank's defensives take much skill to use either.

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But it's not. It's literally not. Start learning how to bank and pre-pop it. I get that the game right now, once geared, is frequently too easy to see the difference, but that goes even more all the other on-demands.

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Don't start to get insulting just cause I don't think pre-popping is "skillful" LOL

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Something net-neutral literally cannot be a "reward". Again, the reward has to earn you something. In TBN's case, it's subtle but still existent: an extra Edge/Flood under raid buffs because you can use it to, in effect, bank 3k MP.

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Again, that's my point, it's actual mechanics are not a reward at all, this one small auxiliary bonus in that one specific use does not equate to the whole kit being unchangeable or "skillful," it's literally a single button press.

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Which, again, TBN did not remove. TBN's entry introduced the height of DRK's MP manipulations, even when discounting TBN itself. If it were the limiter, it would not have existed simultaneously with that, let alone been synergetic to it.

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Which, again, is not my point, as expanded on above.

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

TBN is the most fun button DRK has with a small amount of strategy involved in using it in casual play. Being able to TBN someone who you expect to stand in orange, or to improve someone else's uptime, is truly delightful.

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Sure, I won't deny you that, but removing it's MP cost doesn't have to and even should not change that functionality of it.

Plus the other tanks also get options to use on friends as well, that actually tend to do a lot more then just give a shield.

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.

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Not really, If you removed TBN, DRK's burst would be use edge 3 times and thats it. TBN would probably also be pressed on CD because theres no reason to not.
With TBN, you can minmax it to get 4 edges
There's objectively more going on here.

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

For one I don't think it would just become another Thrill as the shield breaking mechanic should stay and it then has almost all of it's current mechanics intact, cause as you mentioned when someone gets used to playing DRK it becomes kind of a non-factor to use TBN, and you get back your damage anyways, removing it's MP cost changes NONE of that, so calling it "nothing more then Thrill plus 10% mit" is kind of disingenuous.

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If you made it free but left the shield break mechanic you now have to go out of your way to break it every 25s, meaning its now a damage loss to not do that.

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

However once it's removed from the MP pool suddenly CBU3 can actually add to the available skills that make use of MP.

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I have never once seen the developer's remove something with the intent to add something to replace it in this game's 10+ years of existence.
Its remove, simplify, never replace. Its why literally no one believe Yoshida when he says things about Job identity coming soon™
The end result of what your asking for is Thrill of Battle with 10% mit on a 25s cd. They're not going to bring back old skills or make a new MP system for DRK when they can just do this.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Not really, If you removed TBN, DRK's burst would be use edge 3 times and thats it. TBN would probably also be pressed on CD because theres no reason to not.
With TBN, you can minmax it to get 4 edges
There's objectively more going on here.

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So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a shit about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...

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If you made it free but left the shield break mechanic you now have to go out of your way to break it every 25s, meaning its now a damage loss to not do that.

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Then just make up for it with other abilities or potency balancing? Why is this an issue worth considering at all? If TBN were to be changed that much why would there not be allowed any other even smaller changes? I'm not saying "do this one thing in a vaccuum," I did even brought up multiple changes lol

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I have never once seen the developer's remove something with the intent to add something to replace it in this game's 10+ years of existence.
Its remove, simplify, never replace. Its why literally no one believe Yoshida when he says things about Job identity coming soon™
The end result of what your asking for is Thrill of Battle with 10% mit on a 25s cd. They're not going to bring back old skills or make a new MP system for DRK when they can just do this.

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No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.

That's also factually untrue, I mean we JUST got a job actions trailer followed by the info from the media tour where we have seen that exact thing you're saying they "haven't done in 10+ years." NIN just lost Huton but got a whole new job gauge added instead, MNK just had their whole basic rotation reworked to function with a different gauge as well, BLM had several abilities removed and replaced with others that expanded their rotations. I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

You're fully in the realm of "complete overhaul/rework."

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You asked how they could reintroduce meaningful MP management to DRK. I told you how to reintroduce MP management on DRK. Or is the goalpost running faster than even you can keep up?

That "complete overhaul", though, is literally just a revert with an actual attempt at appropriate tuning this time, nothing more.

And if you're going to refuse anything that doesn't confirm your own preference to simplify play further, why are you even on a public forum? Likewise, if you honestly believe the devs will never add (back) substantial to DRK... (1) that's not a reason to remove what little it has left, and (2) what point, again, is there in any point in discussing any of this?

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I honestly don't think basic timing is all that "skillful," I guess, utilizing the abilities afterwards is far more "skill" expressive, but again not that I think the other tank's defensives take much skill to use either.

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Knowing by exactly when sufficient damage will hit so you can pre-pop TBN by 6 seconds, saving MP in opener and or increasing the amount of MP you can fit into your burst, and then cover yet another TB with it just 9s later is a substantially more skill-expressive than "Hit right before TB. There's no chance of having it up anyways for the next one, but at least it's within the next 30s so Excog will autonomously see use if needed anyways" that you just called gameplay augmentation (all while calling things that further emphasize, rather than de-emphasize, good timing... negligible).

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Again, that's my point, it's actual mechanics are not a reward at all

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Its sustain, the barrier, is the primary reward. Which is literally all that any other on-demand gets. It just had a small additional one atop that which fits well with DRK's offensive minutia.

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a shit about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...

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You have yet to provide any reasonable warrant that the job would otherwise be given additional depth if this element of depth were removed despite refusing wholesale the historical evidence to the contrary.

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Then just make up for it with other abilities or potency balancing? Why is this an issue worth considering at all?

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Because maybe people would rather their defensive be first and foremost a defensive, even if one that trades ease for flexibility, than have their offense tuned around how much damage they can take?

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I'm not saying "do this one thing in a vaccuum," I did even brought up multiple changes lol

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Your related multiple changes:

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Make TBN free of MP, give it Oblations DR, increase the CD and increase the duration, but keep the breaking mechanic to actually provide a reward for using it properly instead of a means to avoid a punishment.

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Which is literally just making it 25% additional current and maximum HP with 10% mitigation, on a 25s CD, that your outgoing damage is then tuned around. Which is exactly what, and has exactly the problems that, Oizen responded to.

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That's also factually untrue, I mean we JUST got a job actions trailer followed by the info from the media tour where we have seen that exact thing you're saying they "haven't done in 10+ years." NIN just lost Huton but got a whole new job gauge added instead

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Ahh yes, because we never used to do anything like performing 2 Armor Crushes per 6 Aeolian Edges before... Oh wait.

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MNK just had their whole basic rotation reworked to function with a different gauge as well

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Right, because we didn't previously alternate Dragon Kick and Bootshine or Twin Snakes, True Strike, and True Strike (at moderate or greater haste)? Oh wait.

Now, admittedly, our button diversity did go down now that we can no longer multi-DoT with Demolish for a damage increase at 3 or fewer enemies and in that we use Snap Punch for 75% of Coeurls instead of 67%... but that's it. They're simplifications to make downtime irrelevant.

The Monk changes are not new. Nor did they add to gameplay; they merely simplified the gameplay we had before, removing naunces.

C'mon, even just generally speaking, please don't pretend that moving the same cue information from the status bars to a new UI element makes for new gameplay.

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No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.

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It follows from exactly what you said.

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I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."

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Originally Posted by VicariousXIV

we've come so far down this current iteration that those options don't work anymore

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...This is you claiming that anything like what we literally had before would be impossible ever to have again, even while now treating a historical fact that job "rehauls" since have universally trended towards simplification as illogical negativism...

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank

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Id like vengeance to be placed on Dark Knight and for it to have the blood bar increase from damage taken as well. Go all in on making it the revenge tank, take revenge on warrior for stealing drk's life steal tank gimmick by taking a (very minor) gimmick of warrior!!