Direct Hit is just diet Crit

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

MCH doesn't have procs anymore since the rework. I forgot about BLM and RDM tho, but still. WHM and AST aren't even worth mentionning for that particular mecanic.

If you make all classes works on proc, you will have a huge problem overall. Any benefits you get from procs you mentionned will only lead at huge difference inside each fight. If your team is terribly unlucky you could just not kill a Savage boss just because nobody got the correct proc at the correct time. This is a punishing mecanic by sheer luck for skilled player who will miss a kill just because they are really unlucky. And if SE do that and recalculate the DPS meters to kill the boss, this could also lead to skip of mecanics because the team is incredibly lucky.

BRD, DNC, BLM and RDM should just have their procs removed and reworked completely imo. They need to rework some of their skills so they are actually more playable for a huge portion of player.

Using procs on anything actually will lead to a complete rework of the game, which will probabbly never happen unless SE is forced to.

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I get it, you fear change. I argue that DPS meters to kill should be calculated without the influence of procs. Whereas Procs (and tbh Crits) are bonus luck-based effects, as in there is an inherent variance in their appearance and function. Requiring the player to be lucky to kill is counter to the event of being lucky to begin with. Luck, and therefore procs, should be an opportunity, not a necessity.

Listen, I thought DNC and BRD were too proc heavy too, but people playing those classes *like* procs. I do feel that focus in the class should include more thematic elements. Like if DNC shifted more to weaving and rhythm, or if bard went deeper into the buffs.

Black Mage is perfect in that its proc mechanic doesn't overpower the other elements of its kit. It does have a force-proc mechanic, and the Procs are all instant cast. It makes it perfect to use in between casts of an ability with virtually no lost time. This enables players to do actions at double time, which fits better into the window of damage buffs and cast time buffs (ley lines). You might see more investment into Lucky DH variations if the thunder proc rate could be enhanced

Dancer goes way into proc-of-the-proc, which frankly no one can sell me on. However its characteristic weaving of fan dance between its combo adds double-time with the damage. A lucky hit version of DH would enable the proc flow to increase. My wish? give em access to all 4 abilities and make the combo order randomly determined but telegraphed in advance with something similar to an arrow. And make fan dance proc off of successes. Like thematically dancers are always counting rhythm. One-and-two-and-three-and-four-and. Usually in 8 counts.

I can't speak for Bard.

There's an entire community out there for theorycrafting. The moment they change something, they'll do their testing and figure out the new meta. If stacking determination is suddenly better than crit and increases your DPS by 0.1%, people will dump crit and go with determination instead.

Same thing when they change anything. People figure out what the new best gear/rotation/melds/strategy and everyone mimics that.

I almost miss the early days of MMOs when all of this information wasn't readily at your fingertips. There was more mystery to the game. But, who am I kidding? I don't have that kind of time anymore.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

There's an entire community out there for theorycrafting. The moment they change something, they'll do their testing and figure out the new meta. If stacking determination is suddenly better than crit and increases your DPS by 0.1%, people will dump crit and go with determination instead.

Same thing when they change anything. People figure out what the new best gear/rotation/melds/strategy and everyone mimics that.

I almost miss the early days of MMOs when all of this information wasn't readily at your fingertips. There was more mystery to the game. But, who am I kidding? I don't have that kind of time anymore.

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This is what I feel deep in my heart is the next evolution of gameplay. Strategic diversity. It doesn't matter to me when someone says "best in slot". They very concept of 'best in slot" should be avoided at all costs. It instead should be, what is best to suit the needs of the situation. Fights that repeat one standard pattern you have to memorize are cool, but like... other things can be difficult too. When is something a unique advantage? When is that advantage a liability?

Lately raids seem to be investing heavily in rote memorization. The kit of each class at present is configured to support balance in ability to complete the singular objective of mostly stationary combat. If we had enemies that were constantly on the move. It would make situations where you had to fight and race at the same time. How would each class be able to adapt? Like what if sub roles were formally acknowledged? Wouldn't that revolutionize everything too?

You already see it a glimpse with dungeons. Having the tank rush through while the healer blows everything to keep the horde from annihilating them. That's the part of dungeons that I enjoy actually. Basic enemies aren't just the flavor text for a boss fight. It's a test of ability knowledge and speed of execution. If you had to chase or kite the boss for the entire fight, that would be SO COOL. This shift is just one of many that would enable more possibility, not less. Balance should be merely the scaffold of strategic combat. Everyone wants equality, but like... there's room for innovation. Some people will be pissed off if the sun comes up in the morning. Ideas should be refined by disagreement.

What about if a boss tries to escape and regens out of combat? Or if you had to fight it in two very distant places? How would each class accomplish that? Which classes would excel, which would lag behind?

What if some mages had more extreme range? Like 40 yalms or so and you had to hunt them down? You already see players having to deal with this in PvP. Pop the healer, try to not get pinned down by the tank, don't let the enemy DPS reach the back line. There's more than one way to deal with a situation, we shouldn't corral everyone into the same strategy or build.

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Originally Posted by eldritchAvatar

Strategic diversity. It doesn't matter to me when someone says "best in slot". They very concept of 'best in slot" should be avoided at all costs. It instead should be, what is best to suit the needs of the situation. Fights that repeat one standard pattern you have to memorize are cool, but like... other things can be difficult too. When is something a unique advantage? When is that advantage a liability?

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The game's encounters would have to be redesigned from a fundamental level for a "best in situation" scenario instead of a "best in slot".

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Originally Posted by eldritchAvatar

Lately raids seem to be investing heavily in rote memorization.

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Lately? Rote memorization of an encounter is all this game has ever been. Nothing really is truly "random" in this game in this aspect.

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Originally Posted by eldritchAvatar

The kit of each class at present is configured to support balance in ability to complete the singular objective of mostly stationary combat. If we had enemies that were constantly on the move. It would make situations where you had to fight and race at the same time. How would each class be able to adapt? Like what if sub roles were formally acknowledged? Wouldn't that revolutionize everything too?

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I dunno where you've been. What game do you think you have been playing? This is how it's always been. This is fundamentally how the devs have wanted to design this game. I don't see them changing that anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by eldritchAvatar

You already see it a glimpse with dungeons. Having the tank rush through while the healer blows everything to keep the horde from annihilating them. That's the part of dungeons that I enjoy actually.

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This is the most boring-est part of dungeons.

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Originally Posted by eldritchAvatar

If you had to chase or kite the boss for the entire fight, that would be SO COOL.

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That would be lame, everyone would be complaining about loss of uptime and MUH DEEPS.

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Originally Posted by eldritchAvatar

Everyone wants equality, but like... there's room for innovation. Some people will be pissed off if the sun comes up in the morning. Ideas should be refined by disagreement.

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You'd better bribe a lot of devs then to change how they think, esp Yoshi-P.

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Originally Posted by eldritchAvatar

we shouldn't corral everyone into the same strategy or build.

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This idea that somehow everyone should be special doesn't fit into the way this game is currently built. Go play a single player game if you want this kind of variety. Even then most people playing will just look up the fastest/best way to play anyways there too. lol

The ONLY THING that matters in this game right now when it comes to encounters is PLAYER SKILL. Dying to mechanics? You're not good enough. Hitting enrage? you're not good enough. No unique build should be able to compensate for that. That's the way the devs have always thought about this game.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

They don't need to remove it. They just need to revamp it.

Actually, Piety and Tenacity have such low value that every Tank and Healer avoid that as much as possible. The answer ? It doesn't provide DPS (Well, it does for Tenacity, but not to the extent of Determination, which is way more valuable.)

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Indeed it all comes down to DPS.
For tanks, the solution would be actually rather simple (assuming no complexe rework of function).
Increasing its mitigation effectiveness while, at the same time, increasing boss AA in such a way that a tank going full tenacity would take significantly less AA than a tank that had none. If you crank up the numbers high enough (and make bosses do, either very hard hitting AA or plenty of smaller TB), you can reach a point where healer might need to actually spend GCD on the tank to keep them alive. If they do it often enough, then can become a dps gain because you make healer heal you less.


However I do not believe going from "Tenacity is utter trash" to "Tenacity stack is mandatory" is a good solution, we're just changing which stat is useless.

An interesting sweet spot could be to have "some" tenacity as to reduces bosses damage enough to actually survive properly and not require constant healers attention (and thus, dps loss through the use of gcd heals).

Obviously, the tenacity effect would need to be drastically increased and the boss damage as well to reach this state.

For healers, piety shouldn't affect the mp economy as
First, linking mp economy to a state makes it entirely useless once the extra mp are unnecessary, so at is currently is. A stat that goes from "100% necessary" to "100% useless" once a threshold is passed is a bad stat. Currently, the amount of piety required is 0.
Second, it would make for a horrible gameplay experience. Let say we'd need to have 500 for a job to be able to DPS nonstop in order to not run oom in a 10min fight.
Any extra costy healing (shield, rez) disturb the balance, making the healer mp too low for the rest of fight, forcing it to stop dpsing as stoping healing would obviously be worse. This results in poor gameplay experience. If more piety is stacked to avoid this problem, we go back to problem one, the extra piety is useless.

It's a circular problem. Currently, piety works fine because it is 100% useless. Therefor, beside being annoying to see on gear, we stack 0 and still have plenty of mp.

To make piety viable, they'd need to make it work like tenacity, but with something that might actually be usefull. So increasing healing and 80% of damage of determination. If the values aren't too low. Some piety could end up being desirable. If your healers can increase their healing by 15-20% by sacrificing only 1-2% of their dps, fight with tight healing check could see this being a viable strategy.

Obviously, that's assuming we'd want to keep those two stats.
Making tenacity and piety stats that you "want a little but not too much" would be a very difficult thing to achieve I feel. The gain is tbh very minor at the risk of throwing off balance.

Determination could indeed be a DPS only stat, however we're back to the same problem. Unless DH is also a dps only stat, we'd have tank and healer stack crit dh (and ss for healers) and avoid tenacity and piety.
The only real solution would either be to remove those two stats or simply buff them to the roof. Piety would, at the very very least, need the tenacity treatment regarding damage.

The changes to stats I would like to see

Critical hit rating now only affects critical hit chance, how hard crits becomes standardized, critical hit damage is now indicated by two exclamation points (crit!!)

Skill speed, and spell speed get merged into a singular haste stat

Determination is kinda boring, but should more or less stay the same by providing bonus damage, and healing potency

Direct hit should increase the potency of critical hits for DPS jobs only, visually bold direct hits, and critical direct hits get removed

Tenacity should be buffed so its damage multiplier is equal to determination as well as increasing its mitigation bonus

Piety needs an overhaul. Piety should provide bonus damage equal to determination, and should reduce the cast, and recast of any spell with a cure potency attached to it including damage spells that have healing attached to them, and works on top of haste

I would like to argue the following:

1. Healing from Determination to be moved to Piety since it is a Healer-exclusive stat.
2. Remove damage dealt from Tenacity and make the mitigation even more potent.
3. Damage increase from Determination be buffed.
4. MP regen from Piety is removed.
5. Introduce an interaction between Critical and Tenacity that further reduces the damage received by the tank... much like how Critical Hit will have its interaction to Direct Hit and to some extent Piety for more potent critical heals.

Removing the damage up for tenacity makes it even more of a useless stat to the point people will actively run lower level gear to avoid it like people currently do on piety

Crit heals are also a terrible design because you can’t balance your healing plan around them, it’s why everyone hates lady of crowns

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Removing the damage up for tenacity makes it even more of a useless stat to the point people will actively run lower level gear to avoid it like people currently do on piety

Crit heals are also a terrible design because you can’t balance your healing plan around them, it’s why everyone hates lady of crowns

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It's time for the devs to take some risks for Tenacity. If my math is correct, the soft cap from defense (both physical and magical), not including active mitigation from tanks, is at 40%. Tenacity when maxed out sits at around ~10%. Please correct me on that.. I know it's wrong. If its weight increased so that it is 1/3 of what defense from gear does... using the above case mitigation from Tenacity would be 20%. Of course further balancing needs to be done. But the gist of it is that if they want Tanks to care about Tenacity, make its value worth the investment.

Crit Spreadlo and to some extent crit Euk Prog/Diag will benefit from crit heals.

Edit.. yes I mentioned 20% since 40% + 20% = 60%... 20% is 1/3 of 60%.

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Originally Posted by rawker

It's time for the devs to take some risks for Tenacity. If my math is correct, the soft cap from defense (both physical and magical), not including active mitigation from tanks, is at 40%. Tenacity when maxed out sits at around ~10%. Please correct me on that.. I know it's wrong. If its weight increased so that it is 1/3 of what defense from gear does... using the above case mitigation from Tenacity would be 20%. Of course further balancing needs to be done. But the gist of it is that if they want Tanks to care about Tenacity, make its value worth the investment.

Crit Spreadlo and to some extent crit Euk Prog/Diag will benefit from crit heals.

Edit.. yes I mentioned 20% since 40% + 20% = 60%... 20% is 1/3 of 60%.

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Critlo if you want it you just force it with recitation, crit diagnosis is completely useless and doesn’t even need to be in the game

Attempting to make tenacity useful would require retooling of almost the entire game because to make it useful you would have to make the current tank kits with zero tenacity unable to survive, even then this probably would mostly get externalised to the shield healer anyway