Make Deployment Tactics DPS Neutral

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Deployment was more interesting when we had other stuff that it could interact with it, Eg Eye for an Eye.

I wonder if it'd be neat to allow it to spread very specific healer buffs, aka WHM's PoM, AST cards etc, probably with a reduced potency to stop SCH becoming mandatory because of it.

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This. The only reason for the conception and implementation of D3ployment tactics is that it is working with Eye for an Eye. Now that it is no longer a thing, it no longer makes sense to use it to deploy Adlo anymore. Instead, it is more logical to make it give Catalyze effect to Succor... preventing pesky SGEs to overwrite it so easily.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I am aware that GCD healing is frowned upon by the community and it's also not incentivised by fight design. But I have to ask, if someone is so averse to GCD healing that they frown upon even casting one singular healing GCD in a span of 90 seconds, do they really want to play a healer in the first place?

This isn't really about design, it's about mindset. The reason lilies became damage neutral in the first place is because WHM players refuse to touch the lilies due to a damage loss, lilies were intended to be a partial refund, not a full refund, just like Ruin II is a partial refund when you have to move too far to slidecast. I'd argue that people who want to play a healer should understand the necessity of losing a cast of their damage spell if needs be.

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I think the problem is that the role that is healing gets punished for using heals. But that problem is way more prevalent in ff14 because the dmg the party takes is scripted. In wow for example gcd healing is a pretty normal thing and no one has a meltdown over it (and because there is no ogcd healing). The problem in ff is that ogcd healing in 90 % of the situations is enough and dmg positive. Also the rest of the tool kit that isn’t healing is just spamming 1 until 2 runs out every 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Why does everything have to be damage neutral? Do you really want the healer role to enter a dead end of meaningless choices where the only consequence is that you don't get to see this particular set of pretty lights because you used it before?

Honestly, if someone has a problem dropping one singular GCD of damage spell casts to set up a shield, then maybe they don't actually want to play a healer?

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Holy moly, just look at this very game to get an example of how to do it right:

Afflatus Solace/Rapture
Macrocosm
Pneuma

Just put these damage GCD heals on a cooldown and they become another tool for you to use much like an OGCD except they actually break the Broil spam monotony, which is the entire point.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Holy moly, just look at this very game to get an example of how to do it right:

Afflatus Solace/Rapture
Macrocosm
Pneuma

Just put these damage GCD heals on a cooldown and they become another tool for you to use much like an OGCD except they actually break the Broil spam monotony, which is the entire point.

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If you aim to make healing a totally brainless activity that even bots can do because there's exactly zero fail states, then sure.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy making choices that avoid failure and also actually using my brain when playing games.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you aim to make healing a totally brainless activity that even bots can do because there's exactly zero fail states, then sure.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy making choices that avoid failure and also actually using my brain when playing games.

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Nice strawman. What is the difference between healing DPS-neutrally with an OGCD on a cooldown versus with a GCD on a cooldown? Keywords here are "on a cooldown".

By the way I literally gave you the examples. There is absolutely no reason for you to be this obtuse, unless you want to see Lily heals gone from the game because you don't understand how they work and think they are braindead?

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Originally Posted by Bole

I’m not who you’re responding to but yes I don’t like the idea that lily heals are turning into “damage happens, press this button to heal it with no consequence”. I am not opposed to it, because at least some healer should be more approachable.

I think that some heals should be DPS losses so that you have something to optimize. I realize that all of the examples that you shared have some ways of optimizing damage, but it is also undeniable that the philosophy of making too many heals damage neutral does reduce the skill ceiling.

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Would you be in favor of a damage penalty on the use of OGCD heals? So that they for example reduce the damage of your next Broil by 10%?

What I don't like about this focus on GCD-neutrality as some sort of boogeyman is that's not at all the point if you think that we have access to too many damage neutral healing cooldowns. If you want to get rid of them, fine, reduce the amount. But don't act like it has anything to do with whether they are GCD-based or not.

I think Aravell wants a trade: deal extra DPS or Heal... much like how PLD is with Clemency. The current situation with the rest of the healer is like how WAR is at the moment, dealing damage and at the same time, healing themselves in the process.

The problem with the latter is that you are not penalized or there is no thinking required. You will not lose out your precious contribution to overall raid dps when your healing is DPS neutral while in SCH's case, you have to choose whether or not to lose out on dps in favor of healing.

I am totally fine with this trade. Look at it this way.. Assize. It is damage and healing in a single button. When was the last time you asked yourself, "I need to hold on the use of this ability to top up my party?" Close to never right? It's because of the damage component of the ability. The healing aspect was considered as a bonus when the intent was it is healing first, the damage as a bonus.

Since the boss mechanics in 14 is scripted, you should know when or when not to sacrifice an oGCD for healing than doing damage with ED. And for that, we have Recitation to take care of the emergency Excogitation/Indomitability usage. But if you badly want your DPS neutral change, then lowering Recitation cooldown to 30 secs and a trait to make it hold up to 2 charges, might be what you want, so you can use your Aetherflow stacks exclusively on Energy Drain, only.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Nice strawman. What is the difference between healing DPS-neutrally with an OGCD on a cooldown versus with a GCD on a cooldown? Keywords here are "on a cooldown".

By the way I literally gave you the examples. There is absolutely no reason for you to be this obtuse, unless you want to see Lily heals gone from the game because you don't understand how they work and think they are braindead?

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Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

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Originally Posted by rawker

I think Aravell wants a trade: deal extra DPS or Heal... much like how PLD is with Clemency. The current situation with the rest of the healer is like how WAR is at the moment, dealing damage and at the same time, healing themselves in the process.

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Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

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Originally Posted by Bole

SCH already has damage penalty on many of its oGCD heals (you lose energy drains). I love it even though it has become unpopular because no other healer loses DPS to heal.

It’s only in end walker that we started getting damage neutral healing GCDs. The optimization game until shadowbringers was to reduce GCD heals. I think that’s what people meant when they wanted to encourage more GCD healing (without mentioning the exceptions to the rule of GCD heals being DPS losses).

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Isn't ED so popular that they had to bring it back because the demand was so high in the community? Not even Kaiten was that big of a deal.

In my opinion they should cut down on available OGCD heals and extend neutrality on GCD heals (again: with cooldowns, no unlimited free spam with no decision-making involved) so that there is a bit more variety among GCDs. The real challenge even now isn't to reduce GCD healing, it's to reduce DPS-negative healing.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

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Ok, we're done. I wasn't talking about total damage neutrality, I went out of my way to say that I want that neutrality to be on a cooldown - just like OGCDs. There's not any more I can do.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Isn't ED so popular that they had to bring it back because the demand was so high in the community? Not even Kaiten was that big of a deal.

In my opinion they should cut down on available OGCD heals and extend neutrality on GCD heals (again: with cooldowns, no unlimited free spam with no decision-making involved) so that there is a bit more variety among GCDs. The real challenge even now isn't to reduce GCD healing, it's to reduce DPS-negative healing.

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Bringing back my other point with ED is that it is intended to be used to utilize any unused aetherflow stacks when Aetherflow goes off cooldown. If you do not need the healing, then you are given the choice to use it for damage and be rewarded, despite minimally.

And now look at how absurd is with SGE to spend gall stacks when you don't need to just because it is also tied to your MP sustain?