7.0 Summoner Dreams?

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Originally Posted by Noctavias

lol Final fantasy 11's SMN was peak tbh... doubt we will ever see 14's smn be anything close to it lol.

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I've been playing pet or summon classes since around 2004 and XIs summoner is easily in my top 5. You felt like you had the services of some very powerful entities and you were just there to support them and give the occasional suggestion. ...I should drop back in on that.

My favorite though is still City of Heroes mastermind. The Last Epoch and Grim Dawn both have pretty good summon styles as well.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I don't know exactly how the code works for XIV but I have a feeling this is not a feasible solution, otherwise they would have done it for Searing Light instead of just having the summoner cast it, it also would have worked before the change when SMN still had pets to command and they never implemented such a change.

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How is it not feasible? The only change to be done will be the check where the ability will originate. And I find it quite baffling knowing that pets in mmos aren't a new concept but 14's engine isn't capable of handling such despite having initial code to handle it?

If so, i think this is not a technical issue but a prioritization issue. They have the resources to do so. For sure they have a way to test it and emulate worst case scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

I've been playing pet or summon classes since around 2004 and XIs summoner is easily in my top 5. You felt like you had the services of some very powerful entities and you were just there to support them and give the occasional suggestion. ...I should drop back in on that.

My favorite though is still City of Heroes mastermind. The Last Epoch and Grim Dawn both have pretty good summon styles as well.

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FFXI truly did such a great job at translating Summoner to an MMO setting! - Not just in how the job played but also the lore and how you unlocked the job and each Avatar!

I feel you on Last Epoch (Can't wait for 1.0 next month and to get back into Beastmaster) and Grim Dawn too. I also recommend Aion's Spirit Master as a great "Summoner" class - I've not played Aion since it left NCSoft but I hope it still plays like it used to.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

FFXI truly did such a great job at translating Summoner to an MMO setting! - Not just in how the job played but also the lore and how you unlocked the job and each Avatar!

I feel you on Last Epoch (Can't wait for 1.0 next month and to get back into Beastmaster) and Grim Dawn too. I also recommend Aion's Spirit Master as a great "Summoner" class - I've not played Aion since it left NCSoft but I hope it still plays like it used to.

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I'll have a look into Aion. Hellgate London had two unique pet jobs, with Engineer having a robot that could equip player weapons. You can still play it offline if you're curious. Path of Exiles eventually layer on to be really good as well and that one's free.

I had high hopes for Diablo 4s necromancer but way to many important abilities are tied to gear and it feels less like a spec and more like an afterthought.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

snip [/I]

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So basically the summon fights for you, while you as the SMN command it what to do, and you change the summons throughout the fight, depending on the situation (aoe or single target/DoT's up or not up)? It's not that this won't work, but how would you avoid the different summons compete with each other? Leviathan and Shiva both providing DoTs would work if the DoT don't overwrite each other. But if Ifrit and Titan are both the heavy hitters it would raise the question "Who is the heaviest hitter?" (easy fix though: one buffs you for a period of time, while the other one hits harder). Also, the AoE summons probably won't ever be seen in raids/trials again, sadly.


Let me have a try at a rework too.

lv. 1-50

Carbuncle now attacking enemies agaîn (because why not) Also, Carbuncle doesn't disappear while other Summons are up.

Aether Flow changed into a ressource that can stack in counts of 10 up to 100.

Ruin I beeing your standart cast that does dmg and gains Aether Flow. Later gets a trait having the chance to allow for 1 use of Ruin II.

Ruin II instant gcd that only is accessible from a Ruin I procc. Higher dmg to their target and its sorroundings and more Aether Flow gain than Ruin I.

Ruby/Topaz/Emerald all turned into 2.5 casts using Aether Flow. Each having an own medium cd (like 30 seconds). All just basically dealing single target dmg. After beeing evolved into their respective Egis they deal AoE dmg to their target and its sorroundings, and gain new additions:

Ifrit - increased dmg
Titan - damage buff to SMN
Garuda - DoT

Fester: Using Aether Flow to deal dmg. Basically just the ressource spender to prevent overflow.
Tribind and Painflare: AoE versions of Ruin I and Fester.
Radiant Aegis: Same as before.

lv. 50-60

Upgrade Ruin I to Ruin III

Summoning Ifrit/Titan/Garuda gains you a new ressource on your Job Gauge beeing Fire/Earth/Wind aspected Aether.
Dreadwyrm Trance uses Fire, Earth and Wind aspected Ather to be executed. Functions like before, changing Ruin I/III and Tribind into Astral Impulse/Astral Flare and Astral Flow into Deathflare.

lv.60-70

Not much changes here. Upgrade Ruin II to Ruin IV. Summons Demi-Bahamut while in Dreadwyrm Trance. Searing Light still our raid buff. Just like we are used to.

Energy Drain: 1 min cd ogcd. Deals dmg and gains enough Aether Flow for 3 summons, ensuring that you have enough Aether flow in your opener for your Dreadwaym-Trance.

lv.70-80

Shiva/Ramuh/Leviathan Egis can now be summoned. They function the same way Ifrit, Titan and Garuda Egis do, with one beeing the heavy hitter, the second buffing the SMN and the third providing a DoT.
However, summon them doesn't use Aether Flow but the Aspected Aether of their counterpart. Meaning summoning Shiva Egi uses Fire Aether. Summoning Ramuh uses Earth Aether. And summoning Leviathan uses Wind Aether. Doing so provides Ice/Lightning/Water aspected Aether instead.

Firebird Trance uses Ice/Lightning/Water Aether to summon Demi-Phoenix and works back like in ShB with a 1-2 combo instead of 1-1-1-1 spam. Changes Ruin III/Tribind into Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory and Astral Flow into Rekindle.

lv. 80-90

Egis Evolve into Demis, gaining their respective extra-mechanics. (They have to be shortened or Dreadwyrm/Firebird-Trance doesnt fit into buff windows though)

lv. 90-100

Dreadwyrm-Trance now provides Umbral Aether, while Firebird-Trance provides Astral Aether. With Umbral and Astral Aether the last and final summon becomes available. Alexander or Odin for example. But that's the one thing you definitive want to throw into the 2 minute window.

Rotation with the 2 minute meta in mind:

0 sec: Searing Light. Energy Drain -> Ifrit/Titan/Garuda -> Dreadwyrm Trance.
0-60 sec: Ruin for Aether Flow gain -> Ifrit/Titan/Garuda
60 sec: Shiva/Ramuh/Leviathan -> Firebird Trance. (Alexander/Odin would be avaiable at this point, but you will delay it for the 120 sec window)
60-120 sec: Ruin for Aether Flow gain -> Ifrit/Titan/Garuda
120 sec: Searing Light, Alexander/Odin, Dreadwaym-Trance.


Other Stuff:

-An ogcd that turns the next Summon cast into an instant.
-An ogcd that switches your place with that of your Carbuncle.
-Demi-Phoenixs' utility could be outsourced from the Summon and turned into a defensive raid cd.
-At one point Energy Drain might also give you access to two ogcd's summons like Ravana/Bismarck or Susanoo/Lakshmi (those guys tend to be forgotten lol)

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

I'll have a look into Aion. Hellgate London had two unique pet jobs, with Engineer having a robot that could equip player weapons. You can still play it offline if you're curious. Path of Exiles eventually layer on to be really good as well and that one's free.

I had high hopes for Diablo 4s necromancer but way to many important abilities are tied to gear and it feels less like a spec and more like an afterthought.

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As I say, I've not played Aion for quite some time. I hear after it changed hands to another company it became quite micro transaction focused - It was subscription based when I played and then became F2P after it changed hands. But I hope the core gameplay for the jobs is still there. Spirit Master works with elemental pets that grow with the player, eventually becoming Primal sized pets that are always by your side. You command them whilst casting your own element attacks alongside them.

I'm unfamiliar with Hellgate but I shall give it a look - Always on the lookout for games with pet classes! Path of Exile is one I've sunk a ton of time into - Love specing pet builds on Necromancer even if it litters the screen with chaos haha.

Yeah Diablo 4's Necromancer didn't quite hit the mark for me either - I felt there was slightly less control and customization over the pets too. I feel D3 did a better job with Necromancer - The rune system alone I think is something that helped and is a feature I miss in D4!

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

Snip so post isn't too long

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Yeah I was concerned that having even more than one "unique" pet per category would cause a clash, but I wanted to leave the idea open that it could be possible - However it may be best to just cut it down to one pet per category and have the rest as glamour options to avoid such things.

Indeed, I wanted pets to be the focal point of my idea. Perhaps some small damage could come from the player via a few Ruin spells. But on the whole I wanted to try to create something that would focus attention to the summons themselves, I feel that's where the heart of Summoner lies.

Still quite rough of course and even when fleshed out may end up showing too many flaws - But the general idea gameplay wise would be to constantly keep your DoT's up with the DoT Summon, whilst switching to either the Melee or Ranged Summons depending on the situation:
- Melee Summon - Bosses and single target mobs.
- Ranged Summon - Group mobs such as trash and add phases during boss fights.

Demi's would also come into play at later levels to further the need for weaving between the 3 Summon categories:
- Odin- For Vulnerability debuff
- Bahamut - For the raw damage
- Phoenix - For the additional burn DoTs (These would increase the damage output of your next DoT Summon Enkindle 2 - because there would be more DoT's applied to detonate)
*Shiva's Enkindle 2 would be a super sassy/iconic finger snap to detonate the DoTs causing big damage!

Permanent summons, including demi-summons, and have them physical and receive damage, also for us to have a means to heal the summons and keep them in battle.

A summoning book in the same manner of BLU, from which we can select up to 5 active summons between most summons like Shiva, Fenrir, Ramuh, Diabolos, Odin, etc....

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Originally Posted by rawker

How is it not feasible? The only change to be done will be the check where the ability will originate. And I find it quite baffling knowing that pets in mmos aren't a new concept but 14's engine isn't capable of handling such despite having initial code to handle it?

If so, i think this is not a technical issue but a prioritization issue. They have the resources to do so. For sure they have a way to test it and emulate worst case scenarios.

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I don't know very much about XIV's engine but I do know they messed around with pets for at least 4 years and never got it quite right. It is usually never as simple as "just change originating location", especially in a game that has been ongoing and changing for 10 years. Code easily gets entangled in ways never intended. There is after all the whole TF2 coconut story to show how code can be very strange and unpredictable at times.

I just came back after being gone a while and they ruined my favorite job, Summoner. It's completely changed from when I left. WTH? Why?

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Originally Posted by Grintch

I just came back after being gone a while and they ruined my favorite job, Summoner. It's completely changed from when I left. WTH? Why?

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Just to spite you.