Samurai Deleted Action(s), Comeback of Ageha in 7.x or beyond?

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Iaijutsu literally doesn't work if it is unsheathed already?

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In the context of how it works in 14, no it makes no sense. I've already got the weapon out, I'm fighting against my opponent, in what way is putting the weapon away to quick-draw it again a good idea? That just leaves me open for an attack. An actual quick-draw would be in anticipation of a fight, not something you do in the middle of a fight. But my point is the realism doesn't matter because it looks cool. Flourishes only help to make it look cooler.

Katanas can thrust, but that wasn't their strong point. Thrusting is best on weapons with a fine tip and taper, something that you're more likely to have on a longsword compared to most curved sword. Again though, it's about it looking cool, that's why Square made the animation, logic be damned, it's cool.

Also flourishes in ANY kind of swordplay is bad, realistically speaking, it doesn't matter if it's western or eastern. Why is it you think that flourishes are something that should only be for western style swordplay? Longswords and arming swords are just as sharp as a typical katana, why is flourishing them okay and not a katana?

I think Square Enix as a japanese company is probably more in-tune with what makes a good fantasy Samurai.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

In the context of how it works in 14, no it makes no sense. I've already got the weapon out, I'm fighting against my opponent, in what way is putting the weapon away to quick-draw it again a good idea? That just leaves me open for an attack. An actual quick-draw would be in anticipation of a fight, not something you do in the middle of a fight. But my point is the realism doesn't matter because it looks cool. Flourishes only help to make it look cooler.

Katanas can thrust, but that wasn't their strong point. Thrusting is best on weapons with a fine tip and taper, something that you're more likely to have on a longsword compared to most curved sword. Again though, it's about it looking cool, that's why Square made the animation, logic be damned, it's cool.

Also flourishes in ANY kind of swordplay is bad, realistically speaking, it doesn't matter if it's western or eastern. Why is it you think that flourishes are something that should only be for western style swordplay? Longswords and arming swords are just as sharp as a typical katana, why is flourishing them okay and not a katana?

I think Square Enix as a japanese company is probably more in-tune with what makes a good fantasy Samurai.

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Because it's a really strong technique? You can tank a hit it's a fantasy game with magic. You have a self-shield called third eye, and two forms of self heal baked into the role itself. You have to think beyond pure function and more into potential if you want to understand the point of iaijutsu. It's about potency. It's not about it looking cool, it is literally a stronger attack and samurai is a dps role. Not a tank.

Thrust attacks are part of many if not all martial arts involving katana. Best =/= viable and useful. Katana are extremely strong at thrusting.

The reason it's suitable on western style combat is because western schools of sword combat are known for those behaviours, while katana based sword styles are based on a more zen-like state of mind that leaves no room for such fanciful swordplay. It's not cool, even if you think it looks cool.

Honestly though, you play red mage for a reason. It's because it is closer to your fantasy. I'd like for there to be more distinction and job identity that suits the fantasy and values of samurai. Then your fanciful red mage swordplay would stand out more. Win win for everyone.

Square enix, the company that doesn't like the term "japanese rpg", the company that constantly messes up katana models, the company that is extremely influenced by western aesthetics and culture.

More "in-tune" because they are based in japan? What kind of a baseless assumption is that anyway? Do you think all japanese people are like samurai or something? That's how your post reads. Kinda weird.

It's a strong technique because of gameplay, remember we're talking about the practicality of the animations here. Don't change the subject.

"Western schools of combat are known for those behaviours" yeah, no, they're not. You call me ignorant, but you have no idea how western swordplay works. The "zen-like state of mind" makes you sound like someone that treats the katana as some kind of holy blade that shouldn't be tarnished, compared to those western blades that can be swung willy-nilly with no drawbacks. No, it's a sword, it cuts when you swing it against something, it's no more special than any other sword.

And yes, I do expect a japanese company to have a better idea of how a Samurai operates because they have better access to the historic literature and are part of the culture that was formed out of that history, growing up in a culture makes it a hell of a lot easier to understand the nuances within that culture. They "mess up the katana models" because they care about the rule of cool in their fantasy game. Realism be damned, they want something that's very much not like what you think a Samurai should be, and is instead what a video game Kugane-Samurai would be. Lord knows I can point out how stupid some of their rapier and arming sword designs are, but I don't, because the result still looks cool.

How the hell did you think that I thought "all japanese people are like samurai" from what I said? All I implied is that being part of a culture makes you, *gasp*, more in tune with that culture. Square may take some inspiration from western influences, but their culture is still very much japanese. Or do you think someone who would be born and raised in japan would have no idea what a Samurai would be?

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

In the context of how it works in 14, no it makes no sense. I've already got the weapon out, I'm fighting against my opponent, in what way is putting the weapon away to quick-draw it again a good idea? That just leaves me open for an attack. An actual quick-draw would be in anticipation of a fight, not something you do in the middle of a fight. But my point is the realism doesn't matter because it looks cool. Flourishes only help to make it look cooler.

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I don't really think you understand much about where Samurai's attacks come from.
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Iaijutsu (居合術) is a combative quick-draw sword technique.[1] This art of drawing the Japanese sword, katana, is one of the Japanese koryū martial art disciplines in the education of the classical warrior (bushi).
--

Iaijutsu literally is the art of quick drawing your sword. In real life if you practice Iaido (居合道) or Kenjutsu（剣術） that involves Iaijutsu（居合術）, then you will sheathe your sword in order to perform the technique.

It's not necessarily about it being a "really strong technique" or "looking cool" this is an entire style of how swords are used.

Then to go into thrusts, many Kata in Kenjutsu and Iaido use thrusts, Hissatsu means certain kill. In the days where swords were used by armies a lot, thrusts were the common method of attack to kill an enemy because a slash will typically not pierce armor. That being said the sword was not used as often as many more armies favored spears and bows. Spears were better for penetrating armor and had a better range than a sword.

So in terms of translations here to make it even easier to understand :

Iaijutsu - 居合（iai) means the　art of drawing one's sword, cutting down one's opponent and sheathing the sword afterwards.
　（術） means art or technique. Literally the translation is the art or technique of cutting an opponent down and then sheathing your blade. Jutsu can also mean magic in a different context.

Kenjutsu - 剣 (Ken) means sword,
　　　　　　　　術 (Jutsu) again means technique or art. Jutsu can also mean magic in a different context.

必殺技(hissatsu)
Noun
killer technique; surefire assassination method​
special or lethal move

Those "flourishes" are actually standard parts of Iaido kata today. Iaido is the modern form of Iaijutsu. You should look up Iaido demonstrations and you'll see the "flourishes" as you call them are often just creative ways to clean blood off your sword or a way to sheathe your sword.

So yeah I guess you could say it doesn't make sense but it just seems like you don't really know much about Japanese culture. The current samurai is half based on the "fantastical samurai" and the post Edo period style Samurai. But the attacks are very grounded in real life techniques for the most part.

Interesting, I know Iaijutsu was actually used, but from what I understand of it, it wasn't a battlefield maneuver, but more like a self-defence thing, possibly execution, or pre-emptive attacking, which was what I was trying to convey (rather poorly honestly). Either way I don't have an issue with it being in-game, but moreso was just pointing out you wouldn't realistically want to resheathe a weapon mid-combat. I'm willing to eat my words on that however.

And yeah, that was the point I was making overall; the attacks are a mix of fantasy and some grounding in reality. Silly things like the Kaiten spin are pure fantasy, which is fun. That said, I never really claimed to be particularly knowledgeable on japanese culture either, most of my knowledge I admit is very cursory and simple.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Interesting, I know Iaijutsu was actually used, but from what I understand of it, it wasn't a battlefield maneuver, but more like a self-defence thing, possibly execution, or pre-emptive attacking, which was what I was trying to convey (rather poorly honestly). Either way I don't have an issue with it being in-game, but moreso was just pointing out you wouldn't realistically want to resheathe a weapon mid-combat. I'm willing to eat my words on that however.

And yeah, that was the point I was making overall; the attacks are a mix of fantasy and some grounding in reality. Silly things like the Kaiten spin are pure fantasy, which is fun. That said, I never really claimed to be particularly knowledgeable on japanese culture either, most of my knowledge I admit is very cursory and simple.

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Oh that's quite alright. I just really like swords and Japanese culture and just wanted to give you some information on the topic.

In terms of practical use sheathing your sword makes your line of attack somewhat vague(you can attack from many different angles very quickly) and adds speed to the cut(due to propelling the blade with your thumb and using body momentum).
It depends more on the style of Kenjutsu on how many drawing techniques you use with the modern Iaido being basically all about drawing techniques.

As for Kaitens sword spin, there are actually sheathing techniques that look very similar. There's all sorts of ways to flip your sword around because you strike with the blade toward the opponent but sheathe with the blade side towards the sky to keep the blade from dulling. That's why for example in game the sheathe has the blade pointing towards the sky. When walking around with your sword sheathed if the blade were near the bottom of the saya(sheathe) it would dull very quickly, and katana had to always be sharpened and ready.

I would assume since Kaiten was only used before Iaijutsu (yes ogi namakiri is also a type of iaijutsu) it's kind of meant to be like a spin before sheathing the blade to draw it for the next strike.

Damn, even more of a reason to have kept Kaiten.

I'll eat my words on Iaijutsu at least, but I think my overall point still remains that it's all well and good for Square to have over-the-top animations if they so wish. Removing abilities like Kaiten, which was an important part of Samurais gameplay design, because of a subjective opinion on it "looking cringe" is only destructive to job design. It combined the two disparate mechanics of Iaijutsu and Kenki together so that you had to manage one to emphasise the other. It'd be like removing Suiton from Ninja and having Trick Attack be a standard cooldown, suddenly the interplay between two different mechanics is lost and the job feels worse as a result.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Oh that's quite alright. I just really like swords and Japanese culture and just wanted to give you some information on the topic.

In terms of practical use sheathing your sword makes your line of attack somewhat vague(you can attack from many different angles very quickly) and adds speed to the cut(due to propelling the blade with your thumb and using body momentum).
It depends more on the style of Kenjutsu on how many drawing techniques you use with the modern Iaido being basically all about drawing techniques.

As for Kaitens sword spin, there are actually sheathing techniques that look very similar. There's all sorts of ways to flip your sword around because you strike with the blade toward the opponent but sheathe with the blade side towards the sky to keep the blade from dulling. That's why for example in game the sheathe has the blade pointing towards the sky. When walking around with your sword sheathed if the blade were near the bottom of the saya(sheathe) it would dull very quickly, and katana had to always be sharpened and ready.

I would assume since Kaiten was only used before Iaijutsu (yes ogi namakiri is also a type of iaijutsu) it's kind of meant to be like a spin before sheathing the blade to draw it for the next strike.

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The sword is never re-oriented before drawing the katana out of the saya entirely. It makes absolutely zero sense from the angle of realistic function to do anything like that prior to actually drawing the sword, let alone before sheathing it. By the time you have drawn it too, the attack is engaged and there is no time for weeb flair animations. The angle of the cut is determined in an instant when the tip of the sword leaves the koiguchi of the saya. It is both dangerous and incorrect to ever orient the saya any way other than with the blade edge facing upward while it is at the hip.

Everything else you're right about, but kaiten literally makes no sense in the context of samurai on top of looking like an animation some katana user from a poorly written anime would use.

It's fine for square enix to do what they want sure, but they clearly didn't want kaiten in the game anymore and I think ikishoten should be removed next. It feels bad to use these animations as someone who actually appreciates japanese swordplay.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I don't really think you understand much about where Samurai's attacks come from.
--
Iaijutsu (居合術) is a combative quick-draw sword technique.[1] This art of drawing the Japanese sword, katana, is one of the Japanese koryū martial art disciplines in the education of the classical warrior (bushi).
--

Iaijutsu literally is the art of quick drawing your sword. In real life if you practice Iaido (居合道) or Kenjutsu（剣術） that involves Iaijutsu（居合術）, then you will sheathe your sword in order to perform the technique.

It's not necessarily about it being a "really strong technique" or "looking cool" this is an entire style of how swords are used.

Then to go into thrusts, many Kata in Kenjutsu and Iaido use thrusts, Hissatsu means certain kill. In the days where swords were used by armies a lot, thrusts were the common method of attack to kill an enemy because a slash will typically not pierce armor. That being said the sword was not used as often as many more armies favored spears and bows. Spears were better for penetrating armor and had a better range than a sword.

So in terms of translations here to make it even easier to understand :

Iaijutsu - 居合（iai) means the　art of drawing one's sword, cutting down one's opponent and sheathing the sword afterwards.
　（術） means art or technique. Literally the translation is the art or technique of cutting an opponent down and then sheathing your blade. Jutsu can also mean magic in a different context.

Kenjutsu - 剣 (Ken) means sword,
　　　　　　　　術 (Jutsu) again means technique or art. Jutsu can also mean magic in a different context.

必殺技(hissatsu)
Noun
killer technique; surefire assassination method​
special or lethal move

Those "flourishes" are actually standard parts of Iaido kata today. Iaido is the modern form of Iaijutsu. You should look up Iaido demonstrations and you'll see the "flourishes" as you call them are often just creative ways to clean blood off your sword or a way to sheathe your sword.

So yeah I guess you could say it doesn't make sense but it just seems like you don't really know much about Japanese culture. The current samurai is half based on the "fantastical samurai" and the post Edo period style Samurai. But the attacks are very grounded in real life techniques for the most part.

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whole lot of "i am very smart" energy here.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

The sword is never re-oriented before drawing the katana out of the saya entirely. It makes absolutely zero sense from the angle of realistic function to do anything like that prior to actually drawing the sword, let alone before sheathing it. By the time you have drawn it too, the attack is engaged and there is no time for weeb flair animations.

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Many kata end with reorientation of the blade and saya to sheathe it. Depends on your kenjutsu and iaido. But those kata do exist. They certainly don’t happen as fast as kaiten but well , that’s the warrior of light for you.

I get your argument about the animation after drawing the blade , though kaiten happens right before sheathing it. It’s a little over exaggerated but not anymore unrealistic than midare.

That being said I have absolutely no opinion on Kaiten and don’t wish to join the argument about it. Though I’m sure it being gone has more to do with a game design reason over anything to do with the animation.