IGN Brazil Asked Yoshida about 2 min meta

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

As a former speedrunner in other games. Devs need to stop saying that players will optimize the fun out of the game. They are way to overly concerned about people picking meta and optimal choices, so they remove all choices. What they fail to realize is the discovery and journey behind those optimizations is a part of the fun. When you remove that journey, the fun is bland.

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Been saying that since Blizzard dumbed down talents in WoW over ten years ago. Sure you'll always have that margin of players who go to forums or websites to find the 'meta' but you have just as many, if not more who enjoy experimenting and figuring things out in their own.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

As a former speedrunner in other games. Devs need to stop saying that players will optimize the fun out of the game. They are way to overly concerned about people picking meta and optimal choices, so they remove all choices. What they fail to realize is the discovery and journey behind those optimizations is a part of the fun. When you remove that journey, the fun is bland.

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You're wrong. From my personal experience, this will lead to big toxic shift. I remember HW. And not with Rose-tinted glasses. I remember the rage and toxicity in PF, if you played MNK or PLD, you would get kicked and nobody wanted you. It was hell. People will take Meta, that other people discover, and force it upon throat of others. Happened in HW, in other MMO's etc. ''Gamers'' want the biggest odds for winning. And they're willing to throw other people under bus for that few % more dmg.

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Originally Posted by Nokuushi

You're wrong. From my personal experience, this will lead to big toxic shift. I remember HW. And not with Rose-tinted glasses. I remember the rage and toxicity in PF, if you played MNK or PLD, you would get kicked and nobody wanted you. It was hell. People will take Meta, that other people discover, and force it upon throat of others. Happened in HW, in other MMO's etc. ''Gamers'' want the biggest odds for winning. And they're willing to throw other people under bus for that few % more dmg.

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People are doing this already even while the game is already in its current dumbed down state. Red Mages probably feel this a lot when asked to go Summoner. People will always min/max for minimal gains so long as the gains allows for it in any stretch of the means. What's happening now is that SE is removing ALL and EVERY min/max opportunity to the point where you don't even have a choice anymore. It's also what competitive players are. They want biggest odds to be the best because they like to challenge themselves to be the best.

I'm not saying this is the best solution or answer but trying to turn everyone into equals is slowly and surely sapping all diversity, fun, and creativity out of the game while not really removing the toxic players. Toxic players will be toxic regardless of how the game is played.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

When we asked to homogenize cooldowns, that didn't mean make all the tanks play the same and prune everyones abilities though

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As I posted in another thread, this is because players have unknowingly homogenized the classes by complaining about their class. Because the combat of XIV is limited in scope, there's only so much devs can do to spice up a class right? They don't think "make it fun to play" when players complain but rather

- increase potency
- give it utility
- give it healing
- give it mitigation
- give it mobility

And sometimes that is because players directly ask for those things with respect to their class. The problem with XIV is with so many classes it becomes hard to deny it because depending on party you need to have the same balance of dps,buffing, healing etc. It is impossible to align this properly so devs have gone in the extreme direction and decided to make all the classes basically the same within the role (except maybe BLM). This is why to this day you get discussions like "if we add this to x class doesn't that take something away from y class"? Yes it does and we have done that like 50 times already. "If we nerf or take away X from this class no one will play it"..yes because players now are so used to their self created homogenization.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

all of this

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Also I huge agree with the futility ot making classes viable for group play. Nothing works and there will always be a meta, to your point about SMN aka the melee in magic clothing clothing. Also yes toxic players will usually stay toxic, casuals usually casual, and so on...no amount of dumbing down the classes has resulted in meaningful change other than balancing dps in raids. I would argue the reasons most people.do not mess with high end XIV content has nothing to do with gameplay at all.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

People are doing this already even while the game is already in its current dumbed down state. Red Mages probably feel this a lot when asked to go Summoner. People will always min/max for minimal gains so long as the gains allows for it in any stretch of the means. What's happening now is that SE is removing ALL and EVERY min/max opportunity to the point where you don't even have a choice anymore. It's also what competitive players are. They want biggest odds to be the best because they like to challenge themselves to be the best.

I'm not saying this is the best solution or answer but trying to turn everyone into equals is slowly and surely sapping all diversity, fun, and creativity out of the game while not really removing the toxic players. Toxic players will be toxic regardless of how the game is played.

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They will rather remove min/maxing all together rather than do it. Sorry to say but people who you speak of are in vast minority. Those that sit and calculate best dps etc. We're going into age of equality of everything. At the end of the day FF14 is product. That product needs to generate money, and it's best to target big groups and majority of your consumers. Rather than Minority. It will always be that. You either accept it and live with it, or leave and find some other product. If they didn't changed the 2 min meta now, they sure as hell won't in the future.

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Originally Posted by Nokuushi

They will rather remove min/maxing all together rather than do it. Sorry to say but people who you speak of are in vast minority. Those that sit and calculate best dps etc. We're going into age of equality of everything. At the end of the day FF14 is product. That product needs to generate money, and it's best to target big groups and majority of your consumers. Rather than Minority. It will always be that. You either accept it and live with it, or leave and find some other product. If they didn't changed the 2 min meta now, they sure as hell won't in the future.

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This talk of minority and majority is futile and is a dumb strawman. There is so much to unpack with this statement that I just don't have the energy to even interact with it. Minorities and Majorities change ALL the time depending on the situation. In a lot of cases, minorities are listened to over the majority. Minorities and Majorities really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Also, if they don't change the 2min meta now, it doesn't mean they won't do it later. That is such a defeatist attitude. I'm willing to bet if it isn't changed for Dawntrail, that's because it's already to late to change it and that ship has already sailed in development. Sometimes that happens.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

This talk of minority and majority is futile and is a dumb strawman. There is so much to unpack with this statement that I just don't have the energy to even interact with it. Minorities and Majorities change ALL the time depending on the situation. In a lot of cases, minorities are listened to over the majority. Minorities and Majorities really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Also, if they don't change the 2min meta now, it doesn't mean they won't do it later. That is such a defeatist attitude. I'm willing to bet if it isn't changed for Dawntrail, that's because it's already to late to change it and that ship has already sailed in development. Sometimes that happens.

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You're beyond hope. And have no idea what you're saying. Maybe go to sleep if you don't have the energy. It shows. I will laugh, when next xpac comes, and it won't change. But you sure will tell me next time it will happen! Such stupid and immature take. Childish even.

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Originally Posted by Nokuushi

They will rather remove min/maxing all together rather than do it. Sorry to say but people who you speak of are in vast minority. Those that sit and calculate best dps etc. We're going into age of equality of everything. At the end of the day FF14 is product. That product needs to generate money, and it's best to target big groups and majority of your consumers. Rather than Minority. It will always be that. You either accept it and live with it, or leave and find some other product. If they didn't changed the 2 min meta now, they sure as hell won't in the future.

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The two minute meta has existed for like one expansion and is very poorly received. Also XIV is generating less money and seeing subs drop off at a faster rate than ever.

If it wasn't poorly received the games influencers would all love it (they don't) and media wouldn't bother Yoshi P about it. IGN doesn't focus on fringe theories when addressing him.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The two minute meta has existed for like one expansion and is very poorly received. Also XIV is generating less money and seeing subs drop off at a faster rate than ever.

If it wasn't poorly received the games influencers would all love it (they don't) and media wouldn't bother Yoshi P about it. IGN doesn't focus on fringe theories when addressing him.

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Can I get a source of the drop in subs?

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Originally Posted by Nokuushi

You're beyond hope. And have no idea what you're saying. Maybe go to sleep if you don't have the energy. It shows. I will laugh, when next xpac comes, and it won't change. But you sure will tell me next time it will happen! Such stupid and immature take. Childish even.

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The hostility of your comments just took a drastic turn from 0 to 80. A couple posts ago you were talking about a toxic shift and ironically here is you being toxic towards me because we disagree. I won't stoop to your level though since you have revealed your true intentions of starting inflammatory debates.