Duty Complete should mean duty complete :)

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

less PFs

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*fewer PFs

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

people constantly jump into parties way passed their prog or comfortability point

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*people constantly jump into parties way past their prog or comfortability point

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

All you will get from this change is less PFs, slower-filling PFs, and still plenty of trap parties.

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This is a very strong assumption. So your problem is... you'd have to find a different to get a full party of vets to fill your C4me because you can't use the party finder to do it for you? I'd flip the script. You're allowed to post PFs asking for mercenary services, or you can use one of the many community forums put together out of goodwill by vets to help people get clears. Having 7 people clear 1 is an exceptional favor to ask for, not a casual "throw up a PF for an evening and see what happens" kind of thing. As party lead... you have the ability to filter and kick people who join, which is a billion times more effective than blacklist. Come on, you aren't really trying to argue that BL is effective or even that PF traps are what the BL feature is intended for... or are you?

Again, lots people put honest C4mes up and get frustrated by traps, finding 7 random vets to fill an honest c41 is frustratingly difficult (for obvious reasons) and success is far from guaranteed. So, it's easier to fill a "totem" party, and people start to lie about completion status the same way they lie about their prog point. If the game's social features are set up to help people being dishonest... it turns out people will be dishonest!

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Originally Posted by MakoMight

*fewer PFs



*people constantly jump into parties way past their prog or comfortability point



This is a very strong assumption. So your problem is... you'd have to find a different to get a full party of vets to fill your C4me because you can't use the party finder to do it for you? I'd flip the script. You're allowed to post PFs asking for mercenary services, or you can use one of the many community forums put together out of goodwill by vets to help people get clears. Having 7 people clear 1 is an exceptional favor to ask for, not a casual "throw up a PF for an evening and see what happens" kind of thing. As party lead... you have the ability to filter and kick people who join, which is a billion times more effective than blacklist. Come on, you aren't really trying to argue that BL is effective or even that PF traps are what the BL feature is intended for... or are you?

Again, lots people put honest C4mes up and get frustrated by traps, finding 7 random vets to fill an honest c41 is frustratingly difficult (for obvious reasons) and success is far from guaranteed. So, it's easier to fill a "totem" party, and people start to lie about completion status the same way they lie about their prog point. If the game's social features are set up to help people being dishonest... it turns out people will be dishonest!

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You correcting grammatical errors isn't going to help your case XD. And im sorry but that isn't an assumption. If you can't put up a C41 with duty complete, that PF won't be there. Therefore, that is one less PF :P. Your suggestion just makes the experience worse and doesn't solve the problem. What about the parties that have a slot reserved for "Friend on the way". How will you stop people from abusing that? Just have your friend wait on the side while Duty completes are picked up. Speaking of kicking, just fill the party, kick one, bring friend in. Easy. How about just grabbing 7, removing the PF, invite friend. Again, your solution solves nothing.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

You correcting grammatical errors isn't going to help your case XD. And im sorry but that isn't an assumption. If you can't put up a C41 with duty complete, that PF won't be there. Therefore, that is one less PF :P. Your suggestion just makes the experience worse and doesn't solve the problem. What about the parties that have a slot reserved for "Friend on the way". How will you stop people from abusing that? Just have your friend wait on the side while Duty completes are picked up. Speaking of kicking, just fill the party, kick one, bring friend in. Easy. How about just grabbing 7, removing the PF, invite friend. Again, your solution solves nothing.

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Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. It's not an assumption, it's just wrong! XD You can still put a c41, you'd just have to do what the honest c41 hosts do and not put up a duty complete party for yourself.

And no, it doesn't solve anything. If only I could solve dishonesty on the internet! Can't solve world hunger either, guess there's no need to feed the hungry XDDDDD

Duty Complete flag should prevent a player from joining who hasn't completed it. And this is something SE could do on their end. I can't join a PF for an instance I haven't opened. The server does that check - "did they open Mount Ordeals Extreme? No? Then you can't queue for it. The logic is already there. They just have to apply it.

My issue with "helping a friend get a clear" is that if they are partly carried they don't know mechanics enough to actually be a productive member of a "Duty Complete" party. If it is current content, I personally frown upon those who do it. If it is older content from this expansion, usually some mechanics are cheesed/skipped due to better gear so it is less of a problem.

I'll admit the practice can be annoying (especially if you have come from certain other MMOs, where often it's almost impossible to find an open PUG raid that isn't an underexperienced lead demanding top of the crop standards for invites), but I don't think it's something SE really can or should be the one to address.

If nothing else, consider this:

People joining PF groups have completely free rein as to which groups they decide to join or not.

People starting PF groups, short of using passworded groups mediated through supplemental means like LS or Discord, have ... very limited ability to moderate who joins them. They can only specify classes, ilvl, and duty complete if desired, and effectively have to take whoever the first people that come along that meet these limited filters happen to be. There is effectively no manual vetting as there is in WoW's equivalent.

Yeah, you can kick and re-PF, but if anything that's even ruder than demanding experience you have not got, and in XIV's case, kicking someone from a group also silently bans them from ever joining that group in PF for its lifetime even if it is delisted and relisted, so if it turns out you can't find anyone better, you've just screwed yourself short of disbanding the whole party.

So if you want any experience at all and don't want to end up stuck with a fresh prog group that apparently all ignored what you wrote, your only real choices at all (short of outside organizing via social, and honestly I don't think the game should have to rely on social media as much as it does, especially for something this basic) are to flag Duty Complete or demand an ilvl that can't be gotten without a certain degree of Savage experience (and this is only even an option during a certain stretch of a tier cycle).

IMO, the least evil is to leave things the way as it is.

People can feel free to demand the moon and stars if they want (and have to wait correspondingly longer to find people willing to join) - and you can feel just as free not to join those same groups.

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Originally Posted by MakoMight

Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. It's not an assumption, it's just wrong! XD You can still put a c41, you'd just have to do what the honest c41 hosts do and not put up a duty complete party for yourself.

And no, it doesn't solve anything. If only I could solve dishonesty on the internet! Can't solve world hunger either, guess there's no need to feed the hungry XDDDDD

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If a c41 person doesn't put duty complete, they are effectively lying. There are potentially (and most likely) more than 1 person who hasn't cleared. So no, those are not "honest" c41 hosts :P. I understand you've had some bad PF experiences, but your solution only hurts the playerbase and fixes nothing :).

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

If a c41 person doesn't put duty complete, they are effectively lying. There are potentially (and most likely) more than 1 person who hasn't cleared. So no, those are not "honest" c41 hosts :P. I understand you've had some bad PF experiences, but your solution only hurts the playerbase and fixes nothing :).

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First you say removing the duty complete option means you can't put up the PF, now you're saying the ones who don't put duty complete when they haven't completed are the ones lying? I admire your talent for stretching but this was not supposed to be a circus.

I understand that there are certain... upstanding members of the playerbase who have shown up in here, who have admitted to being on the other side of this issue, and who would be... inconvenienced if things were to change. But you see that's actually the point :)

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Originally Posted by Amarande

your only real choices at all (short of outside organizing via social, and honestly I don't think the game should have to rely on social media as much as it does, especially for something this basic) are to flag Duty Complete or demand an ilvl that can't be gotten without a certain degree of Savage experience

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I mean, sure, if you think demanding a higher ilvl is the key then go ahead and demand a higher ilvl. But do you think I should be able require everyone else to have an ilvl that I myself do not have, and if they wouldn't have been ok with that they can check my ilvl after instancing in and leave if they notice a problem? Because that's currently how this system works.

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Originally Posted by MakoMight

I mean, sure, if you think demanding a higher ilvl is the key then go ahead and demand a higher ilvl. But do you think I should be able require everyone else to have an ilvl that I myself do not have, and if they wouldn't have been ok with that they can check my ilvl after instancing in and leave if they notice a problem? Because that's currently how this system works.

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I'm mainly saying the status quo is pretty much about the best that can be done with the current design of PF, and that SE attempting to enforce playerbase cultural norms through restricting options isn't the answer.

To really do better, you'd need a PUG finder that allows for back and forth between the lead and potential joiners (joiner applies, lead has a period of time to decide whether to invite, joiner can decide to accept invite then or not. When group fills or delists, all pending applications are automatically canceled and told that the group's no longer listed), as WoW's equivalent to PF does (here also the server side Duty Complete flag is not even required, as the lead can simply require that applicants manually supply proof of clear before extending an invite).

This is probably a little better than PF, but it's not a panacea either, because two problems still arise:

a, there is still no means of checking if people accompanying the lead at time of listing meet the stated requirements, so "sneaking a carry along" is still not prevented;
b, the de facto ilvl requirements actually go through the roof, as the leader can wait to see if a better geared person applies before deciding to accept the first applicant, so once the community has enough high geared people it is even harder for stragglers to catch up. The nominally required ilvl (which WoW actually does enforce to be no higher than the leader's) is basically irrelevant.

(On the flip side, because b is up to the leader's judgment, it would alleviate the role shortage issue we suffer from in XIV, where players attempting to actually switch over to roles in need mid-tier find it's ineffective because crafted ilvl is no longer sufficient to actually join the groups ...)

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Originally Posted by MakoMight

First you say removing the duty complete option means you can't put up the PF, now you're saying the ones who don't put duty complete when they haven't completed are the ones lying? I admire your talent for stretching but this was not supposed to be a circus.

I understand that there are certain... upstanding members of the playerbase who have shown up in here, who have admitted to being on the other side of this issue, and who would be... inconvenienced if things were to change. But you see that's actually the point :)



I mean, sure, if you think demanding a higher ilvl is the key then go ahead and demand a higher ilvl. But do you think I should be able require everyone else to have an ilvl that I myself do not have, and if they wouldn't have been ok with that they can check my ilvl after instancing in and leave if they notice a problem? Because that's currently how this system works.

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If you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...Cool down from all those bad PFs and maybe you can finally comprehend that :P.


Again, i've told you it solves nothing and you've done everything but disprove that statement. Having a rough time in PF? Welcome! Maybe join a C41 duty complete sometime to help out :)

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

If you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...you can't put up a C41 with duty complete...Cool down from all those bad PFs and maybe you can finally comprehend that :P.


Again, i've told you it solves nothing and you've done everything but disprove that statement. Having a rough time in PF? Welcome! Maybe join a C41 duty complete sometime to help out

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Uh, are you ok? Do you need a little bit of help? English not your first language or something? I apologize for correcting your grammar earlier, let me try to help accomodate instead: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/comprehend
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/prove

Thank you to the people acknowledging the flag is only there to be used by people trying to get results! Please continue to explain to me why duty completes can also trap... that's why you use duty complete when you want better results for yourselves when you don't meet the condition... and why it's okay because you've deemed yourselves more worthy than people who have completed. What can I say, I am a patient teacher and understand irony can be a difficult thing to grasp.

No, I do not want to join your c41! I actually kind of dislike it when totem parties fill with people who cleared yesterday and only because of c41! I really dislike it when duty complete loot parties turn out to be people trying to fill a c4x! But thank you for admitting that your problem is that it's hard to use party finder to get people to willingly fill c41, and for sharing some of the hoops you would jump through to get your c41 filled regardless of how PF is set up.

There are times when I am willing to spend time to get people clears, and there are times when I'm not. There are some people willing to spend a lot of time helping people clear, and there are others who are not. But what you c4me folks need to comprehend when doing endgame duties in PF is you are no longer a sprout and you are not entitled to have strangers on the internet give their time to you to help you clear content for free, and just because being dishonest sometimes gets you better results does not make it ok!