Making All Healing Spells DPS Neutral

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

In this tier right now, casters and healers will die 100-0% from a poison puddle on p8s snakes without mitigation on minimum ilvl. This is the most relevant because the only thing that *can* help here are raidwide mitigations, but the timing on anything but shields is super strict to get both puddles. Even before this, things like Proto-carb can 100%-0% with stuff like double dash, but enemy targeted mitigation works on that.

Edit: Now that I think about it, are there any actual vulnerability stacks this tier? I think I only see damage down for failed mechanics.

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Savage pretty much always gives damage downs rather than vuln stacks since promise, for two reasons, one it stopped the shield cheesing of some mechanics (because poor WHM was left out) and because melee would greed get a vuln stack then just force the healer to heal them harder rather than punish the person greeding the mechanic

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

For everyone considering difficulty in healing being dumbed down... That's kind of necessary to making healers get better dps kits. Let me put it this way:

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(Reached limit so OG post is above).
I see this in blaming bad plays instead of blaming the job design, Healers being greedy and expecting another healer to catch up for their slack is fine, Scholar is a bad example because their current energy drain sucks, because it's a tiny bit of damage it should be removed to encourage scholars to heal a bit more, this isn't a problem with Sage for example even if the player is a bit greedy at least they wouldn't be punished for using any of their OCGD heals, maybe fix energy drain lol.

If a player plays bad and doesn't want to help heal for their own damage that's their problem not the way the job is designed... I just don't understand why we need to simplify healers even more around bad players.

Lets give a example Rotation of something I want to see I'll go with White Mage
Combo: Stone 3 > Stone 4 (Simple 1, 2) Dot: Areo 3 / Proc: Aeroga (When using a Stone Spell while Areo dot is in effect) OCGD: asize / Aoe: Holy 3 / Afflatus Misery: Rewarded for 3 lillies Presents of Mind: Speed boost, Maybe can give a "holy" aspect to your normal spells with a small damage and healing buff.

It doesn't need to be Complicated but it can be a bit more engaging, We can make room with removing stuff such as Cure 1 or Benefic ect, having a small rotation with some procs would be fun healers shouldn't be super complicated another example is I'd like to see more Dots on Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

(Reached limit so OG post is above).
I see this in blaming bad plays instead of blaming the job design, Healers being greedy and expecting another healer to catch up for their slack is fine, Scholar is a bad example because their current energy drain sucks, because it's a tiny bit of damage it should be removed to encourage scholars to heal a bit more, this isn't a problem with Sage for example even if the player is a bit greedy at least they wouldn't be punished for using any of their OCGD heals, maybe fix energy drain lol.

If a player plays bad and doesn't want to help heal for their own damage that's their problem not the way the job is designed... I just don't understand why we need to simplify healers even more around bad players.

Lets give a example Rotation of something I want to see I'll go with White Mage
Combo: Stone 3 > Stone 4 (Simple 1, 2) Dot: Areo 3 / Proc: Aeroga (When using a Stone Spell while Areo dot is in effect) OCGD: asize / Aoe: Holy 3 / Afflatus Misery: Rewarded for 3 lillies Presents of Mind: Speed boost, Maybe can give a "holy" aspect to your normal spells with a small damage and healing buff.

It doesn't need to be Complicated but it can be a bit more engaging, We can make room with removing stuff such as Cure 1 or Benefic ect, having a small rotation with some procs would be fun healers shouldn't be super complicated another example is I'd like to see more Dots on Scholar.

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Energy drain itself is not a problem, it is pretty much the last shred of complexity left on a healer that isn’t pointless weave button bloat (AST playing yuguoh says hi) it’s the fact that only SCH has energy drain while the other three have boatloads of free healing, SCH should be the model since you aren’t punished in prog for using aetherflow but then optimisation is about removing them, not the other way around where SCH is the problem, healing priority should be a core facet of healer design but only SCH (and to a very small extent WHM) have it

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Savage pretty much always gives damage downs rather than vuln stacks since promise, for two reasons, one it stopped the shield cheesing of some mechanics (because poor WHM was left out) and because melee would greed get a vuln stack then just force the healer to heal them harder rather than punish the person greeding the mechanic

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I feel like Bozja handled this better. Twice/Thrice Come Ruin is a good system in it allows mistakes to be made, but continued mistakes/greeding is punished in a way the DPSer doesn't want, with both reduction in damage and in KO if they do it multiple times. It prevents greeding in MORE cases, and if the person gets the second/third stack and dies, they can't blame the healer for just not healing them enough.

I think this needs repeating:

The devs balance a very specific way. Take a good look at Machinist, it's undertuned because despite being the lowest theoretical rdps, it's easy and straightforward enough that casual players and parties will do significantly better with it than with the other ranged that want coordination to burst into 2 minute windows. There are vastly more players than just the pool of high-end savage content clearers and the devs seem to be balancing around the mean. This means that an environment where a healer's expression of skill is based around how much time they aren't spending healing means that that's the only skill expression that healers will ever get because adding more complex things creates an even bigger disparity between the average and top healers. This is compounded by the fact that a healer that's not healing can cause people to die, even when they're otherwise doing everything correctly.

Take a look at fflogs, see the difference between average and max dps of MCH, then see the difference between average and max dps of any healer. In every case, you get a bigger difference between the healer average/maximum output over the MCH output. They do not want to further inflate this gap which is what adding even slightly more complex healer rotations would do. A system like cleric stance, which is really just the damage recapturing effect already put in place by Afflatus Misery, is the only way to close this gap and thus, add room for a more involved dps rotation. The proposed Cleric Stance effect might not even be 1:1, it could be 1:4 to make sure you space your healing spells while giving more leeway for GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Energy drain itself is not a problem, it is pretty much the last shred of complexity left on a healer that isn’t pointless weave button bloat (AST playing yuguoh says hi) it’s the fact that only SCH has energy drain while the other three have boatloads of free healing, SCH should be the model since you aren’t punished in prog for using aetherflow but then optimisation is about removing them, not the other way around where SCH is the problem, healing priority should be a core facet of healer design but only SCH (and to a very small extent WHM) have it

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I disagree I don't think ED should punish scholars damage for healing, If you use your healing resources right in my opinion it shouldn't punish your damage, shouldn't punish your cohealer if a scholar wants to get max damage out, Maybe a reduction in OCGD healing would be better instead of punishing jobs for using OCGD healing correctly with less damage, healers should be about using your resources optiomally so you don't have to GCD heal.

Although your free to disagree and I understand where you're coming from I just dislike the idea of SCH being punished in comparison to other healers, I don't think a good solution would also to be punishing, Recent fights I've heard have been bringing out and testing healers with managing their OCGD's (I'm not a healer main so my opinion might not be great this is just how I view healers)

my main point is The punishment for healing badly should be making the healer use GCD heals Instead of punishing healers for using Resources, even if it's harder to optimize I don't always think that's a good thing, Arguably you can make it harder for all healers to optimise by boosting the healing requirements or removing some OCGDS (making scholar/sage timers longer ect.), reducing strength ect.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I disagree I don't think ED should punish scholars damage for healing, If you use your healing resources right in my opinion it shouldn't punish your damage, shouldn't punish your cohealer if a scholar wants to get max damage out, Maybe a reduction in OCGD healing would be better instead of punishing jobs for using OCGD healing correctly with less damage, healers should be about using your resources optiomally so you don't have to GCD heal.

Although your free to disagree and I understand where you're coming from I just dislike the idea of SCH being punished in comparison to other healers, I don't think a good solution would also to be punishing, Recent fights I've heard have been bringing out and testing healers with managing their OCGD's (I'm not a healer main so my opinion might not be great this is just how I view healers)

my main point is The punishment for healing badly should be making the healer use GCD heals Instead of punishing healers for using Resources, even if it's harder to optimize I don't always think that's a good thing, Arguably you can make it harder for all healers to optimise by boosting the healing requirements or removing some OCGDS (making scholar/sage timers longer ect.), reducing strength ect.

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Energy Drain is a "punishment" only if you choose to look at it that way, Energy Drain accounts for around 5% of SCH's total rDPS in optimized environments, and if you're trying to optimize in environments where you could potentially have to use Aetherflow on things you didn't account for, it's probably not an optimized environment then. Energy Drain optimization is fine IMO because you do not have to interact with it AT ALL to do very well on SCH.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Energy Drain is a "punishment" only if you choose to look at it that way, Energy Drain accounts for around 5% of SCH's total rDPS in optimized environments, and if you're trying to optimize in environments where you could potentially have to use Aetherflow on things you didn't account for, it's probably not an optimized environment then. Energy Drain optimization is fine IMO because you do not have to interact with it AT ALL to do very well on SCH.

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Just to add to this, SCH’s rDPS in optimised environments is still higher than SGE’s even if you use absolutely zero energy drain

Energy drain is just a skill ceiling the other healers don’t have

It's a punishment to lose a bit of damage from my perspective, using a GCD heal or two isn't going to lose a lot either but it's still damage and doesn't always feel good, I actually enjoy Scholar it's one of my favourite healers alongside Astro, so it's not something that majorly bothers me but I'd personally Prefer if energy drain didn't exist, I don't play healer as much so I'm not a big expert on how healers are balanced.

I just in general want healers to have more to do especially in easier content, I heard the new tier is really good for healer players in healing requirements. I just think Healer should be given more to do outside of that the ED point wasn't really related to the whole argument, I don't really mind ED that much it doesn't ruin enjoying scholar for me.

5% is pretty big in this game, unironically.

I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea to add something similar to some healing spells, but not so that you can collect stacks for the next burst phase. It would need something so you can't spam it during downtime, and work either only for the next spell or only last for a few seconds.

For example, for SCH, only on Adloquium. And the next Broil in the next few seconds will have increased potency. So spamming it wouldn't be DPS neutral, but you could cast one GCD shield that's either DPS neutral or doesn't cost you so much DPS.

And make it different for each healer so that they aren't all the same.