I think it's more that more damage would mean (in theory) more GCDs spent healing, thus breaking up the monotony of Glarespam. I remember playing a Druid in WoW where Wrath (their Glare) was MP free so it was just the thing you could cast when you didn't need to heal. In that game (haven't played it for years, but I think this is still true), healers have to use a lot more GCDs on healing. So the "rotation" feels more varied since you're having to actively heal more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
In FFXIV, our oGCDs are so powerful and we have so many of them, you can legit get through entire 4 man dungeons without hard casting a single heal. As such, EVERY SINGLE GCD is used on damage, and having only two GCD damage buttons becomes noticeable.
If you were having to swap every 3rd Glare with an actual GCD heal, the "rotation" would feel like a lot more than Glarespam. You'd never have "Glare Glare Glare" if you needed to constantly replace Glares in that cycle with Cure 2s and Medicas. I believe that's the "more damage to heal" argument and why it has merit. An alternative would be to weaken oGCDs such that they augment, not replace, GCD heals.
It's not "more to do" it's "be more of a dps" that people oppose. Many people play healers because they want to...you know...heal.
Dev team, please fix the healer role
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06-07-2022, 06:15 AMRenathras
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06-07-2022, 07:18 AMMintnHoneyIndeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
But given that the healing requirements are met so easily, and we are well aware, after years of complaint and requests, that the development team is not going to increase the amount of incoming damage, and because we also know that the development team wants the role to be easily accessible, the alternatives include an overhaul of the healers to change their design and behavior to better line up with their battle design and allow more healing (at the risk of alienating those who only played at the entry level) or simply providing more tools to be used when healing has been handled and those who have begun climbing to the skill ceiling can utilize more effectively (such as, but not limited to, a "limited" DPS "rotation") while leaving the entry level action kit intact. Other alternatives exist, but efficacy and exact parameters vary and ultimately boil down to a variation of those two things.
And so, here we are. -
06-07-2022, 08:14 AMRenathrasI do agree it's kind of a mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
The Devs don't want to up healing required, since that would make it harder and, they fear, lead back to the days of healer shortages. But they also don't want to increase the DPS component of healers, since they know healers don't want to be DPSers with involved DPS rotations that they manage while doing their actual job (healing) as a mere side-hustle. They also don't want to change away from the heavily scripted boss encounters, nor change away from enrage mechanics that reward maximizing damage dealt by the party. Nor do they want to reduce power or number of oGCDs thus forcing actual GCD use on healing.
Which likely means, for the indefinite future, healing is going to stay exactly how it is. -
06-07-2022, 09:27 AMNizziI mean I agree with this, its why doing savage on healers back in ShB made me hate healing in XIV so much because once I started to improve it was just... "is this really all I have to do?" It's why I don't like the comments from Yoshida that say things like "we feel like healers should get their enjoyment from doing a good job healing" and then they design content where "doing a good job" equals "use your heals as little as possible"Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
It's why the current situation annoys me so much; it's not necessarily that I am clamoring for more DPS options, it's just that they've created content that requires DPS optimization for healers, and then given us... this. I got into Savage because I wanted to heal more and have harder content, and it was incredibly disappointing when I found out it it didn't require me to do much more healing.
I think I've said it before but my favorite moments playing healer in this game DO come from "doing a good job healing" but it's just that I can't rely on the game to present me situations where I can do that, and that really sucks. Within the framework they've set up for us, the only logical option I can see for the healers is to give a few more DPS buttons so we have something more to do because they're intent on making healers as easy as possible. If we had auto crits, random damage, etc, I would personally love that, but a lot of the "baby healers" would become stressed and unable to cope which is something they don't want, and it's why I don't also understand Yoshida's quote saying "That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?”" which isn't the case of the game we're playing. Casual content isn't tuned for needing healer DPS sure, but if this is a role that contributes in all content by doing DPS and its DPS is required in Savage; if you're stepping into Savage, you aren't a new healer, so why are we designing content that requires healer DPS contributions to be as much as the healers can, while simultaneously making it boring as hell for them? The hard content in the game isn't even designed where healers can flex and get their satisfaction from a job well done; a lot of mechanics are simply just "someone fails the DDR and dies" which is counter intuitive from a healer being able to do a good job.
It's just a very strange design and it's a corner that they've put themselves into by refusing to commit to one design decision. We keep getting bloated oGCD heals each expac that really don't add anything like Fey Blessing and Protraction on SCH, we get content that doesn't require us to use our GCD heals making GCD healing incorrect and feel bad, and our oGCD are so powerful that they're basically just fire and forget outside of things like Ultimate. I really believe the entire role needs a fundamental redesign, but I don't see them being able to do that.
I don't think adding more DPS buttons would "fix" healers but I'm at the level of just wanting anything else to do, and DPS buttons would be the easiest option for that. I've said it and I sincerely mean it, if they add back Miasma and Bane to Scholar I will cry tears of joy and then proceed to never post on these forums again because that little is enough to appease my Broil rotted brain at this point for the next few years. -
06-07-2022, 01:31 PMSweetPeteWe’re you around during that crazy dps era of ARR and HW? This forum was filled with players who cried and complained to take away some dps of healers because they were causing wipes in dungeons, extremes, raids. Remember cleric stance? Remember dps sch who barely healed at all. Because I remember all of it. I remember when healers would say things like “I’m not a heal bot, I like to dps so if you get hit by unnecessary stuff I’m not healing you” it was crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
Since they have taken away allot of the healers dps allot of them became allot more humble and actually heal now lol. I don’t mind maybe rewarding healers for using certain spells like Whm using lilies to get the bloody lily. Maybe Astro after drawing 3 cards they get access to a larger dps skill like comet etc. I don’t want the devs giving healers back full dps rotations because I don’t wanna run into entitled healers who will refuse to heal because they wanna dps more. Sorry but just my opinion. Doesn’t matter if you agree or not. I’m glad healers are the way they are. -
06-07-2022, 01:55 PMNizziI truly feel bad for you that you had to suffer with the injustice of being inconvenienced in a videogame and failing at it. Truly, I wish they would make it where we simply cannot fail at content no more.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPete
Or rather, no, I don't really care if you had experiences with bad healers in the past. Bad players existing is not a good reason for an entire role to be lobotomized, boring and irrelevant in most content. I have so many experiences with bad no mit tanks that cannot hold aggro to save their souls, yet I don't cry about how tanks should lose their DPS buttons. You know how many times I've died in content because the main tank died and I was second on the aggro list while the OT is standing there, braindead, slapping away at his 1-2-3 while I beg in chat "Provoke! Tank Stance! Grab Aggro!"? Because it's happened to me too many times to count.
Curious how this double standard only applies to healers though, never tanks and DPS players. 3/4 healers heal almost exclusively through oGCDs, DPS actions wouldnt affect that at all. Please start living in reality instead of fantasyland. -
06-07-2022, 03:06 PMRenathrasI think I agree with most of what you said in this post. I agree that it largely seems they've KIND of designed themselves into a corner. The thing is, they really don't have to STAY in that corner. There are at least three ways out of it that I can see:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
1) Nerf healing kits (especially oGCDs) to require more GCD healing.
2) Increase encounter GENERAL damage (not spike damage) to require more GCD healing.
3) Give at least some of the healers expanded DPS kits.
BONUS) Some combination of the above.
I think it's just they've decided what they have works "well enough" - and it does - and so they are just kind of leaving it for the time being. -
06-07-2022, 04:34 PMSilverbane
The complainers seem to think they're in a competitive e-sports game, where their egos can be stoked by being better than someone else. They speak of "raising the skill ceiling" but why? So that they (they believe) can demonstrate their supposed superiority. Unable to do so, they get "bored."
Unfortunately for them, FFXIV isn't the kind of game they're looking for.
This is a MMO JRPG of the Final Fantasy series, that many if not most people play for the detailed fantasy world, the story, the aural and visual beauty, and yes, the little bits of combat that provide fake agency in a game that basically runs on rails: you don't actually get to make choices that matter, and how well you complete a duty (or how often you wipe before you do) makes no difference in the game play that follows. FFXIV stresses cooperation, not competition.
Sure, SE provides some content for those desperate to "prove themselves": savage, ultimate, and so on. But these are just side activities, not the main story, and not the focus of the game. Accordingly, the people who attempt the bragging-rights content have to do it with a kit optimized for the world-story-beauty gaming that comprises the bulk of the content and the bulk of what people play, and not a kit built for competition or e-sports. They should expect that, and to learn to overcome that.
PvP is the exception, the developers created new job kits for that -- which is at least why some people I know won't try it; because knowing the multiple kits for the multiple jobs they run in PvE is as much effort as they care to put into this game. But PvP is different by nature, because your opponents aren't scripted or even AIs. So the developers need only provide the job kits, the rules, and the battleground, and PvP will essentially create new content every day, with every new group that takes the field. I think that may be why SE pushes it, because new scripted content is so expensive to develop.
So while developers could develop a separate competitive "e-sports" type kits for savage, ultimate, and the like, odds are their aren't (and never will be) enough players who would use that kit to justify the expense, since the scripted content to match those kits would have to be developed too.
And that's why SE will probably keeping making job kits and content that I enjoy,
and that bores the self-anointed elites who complain in the forums. -
06-07-2022, 06:00 PMfulminating(you)Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbane
On the off-chance: it's not about being better than anyone, it's about being punished for competence. -
06-07-2022, 06:20 PMSilverbaneLOL. What, did you wipe because you were too good for the content?Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
One has to wonder: what kind of "entitled" brat thinks not being rewarded is the same as being punished?
I edit to add in passing that like most of the complainers here, "fulminating" [edit: and CrimsonGunner, see next post] have no response to the substance of my post.
It's just the same blissfully fact-free ad-hominem that is a staple of the whiner community's posts.
I'm sure, should he ever read it, that Yoshi-P will by appropriately impressed.