I think I have the answer to the DPS add on dillemma

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Good idea with some small problems.

You see, ESO also had this problem. PC players had access to addons, and they could fine tune their builds off of the parse information. Something that is actually really, really important in a game with custom loadouts. To rectify it in some way, ZOS gave console players various training dummies to reflect different environments. When the target reached 0hp, it spit out your dps and time of completion.

While helpful, it didn't tell you anything about how you got those numbers or how to improve. It's all guesswork from there. Something that would be useful is for it to spit out a little combat log, not unlike the one we already have access to, but on the timeline. You could see your missed gcd, or double weaves easily. A lot of the problem is that we build terrible muscle memory, and knowing where these habits lay is the hardest step to improving.

Oh, hey Vel is back to being unhinged.

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The thing is that it would not account for raid DPS jobs provide. If we used a system like that, then you would never invite a DNC because it would only show their personal dps without dance partner and the damage their dance partner provides. You wouldn't even be able to have a pretend dummy since their gauge generation will vary based on the job they are partnered with AND the overall combined damage is dependent on who the partner as well.

Not to mention not accounting for specific adjustments. Unless they literally played out the exact sequence of a fight which would be a slap in the face to world-first races AND groups that prefer to blind prog, then you would never be able to to "simulate" something like pinax in p4s or damage uptime for teather/rot phases in the same fight.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

By screaming,. abusive epithets, obscenities, public humiliation..oh and lets not forget the old and very timeworn excuse

"You won the roll for the mount but xyz did more dps than you so he gets the mount"

Dont tell me this doesnt happen , it does. I am immensely amused by the utter denial I see in these threads that parsers dont contribute to toxic and abusive behaviour.

They do.



Tell me, when you told Bob about his dps, did he ask you first? Or do you shove it in their faces? Did they ASK you for your feedback? Did they ASK you to discuss their dps with them?

No, they didnt. But you poke your nose into it and do it anyway, and you dont CARE whether or not they want to hear it you will tell them anyway.

You are not getting an official ingame parser. it is not happening. FULL STOP. All the whining and jumping up and down wont change a thing.

Accept it. The answer is a FLAT NO. The end.



"Post your dps numbers to be allowed into our group or else"

No.

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You can scream about the inanimate object all you like, doesn't change the fact that one HUNDRED percent of the toxicity I've seen in this game has come from toxic casuals and their sneering, seething hatred for anyone daring to suggest they're anything less than perfect at the game.

Whence comes this irrational rage about statistics and math. Where on the doll did the combat log insult your mother.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

The thing is that it would not account for raid DPS jobs provide. If we used a system like that, then you would never invite a DNC because it would only show their personal dps without dance partner and the damage their dance partner provides. You wouldn't even be able to have a pretend dummy since their gauge generation will vary based on the job they are partnered with AND the overall combined damage is dependent on who the partner as well.

Not to mention not accounting for specific adjustments. Unless they literally played out the exact sequence of a fight which would be a slap in the face to world-first races AND groups that prefer to blind prog, then you would never be able to to "simulate" something like pinax in p4s or damage uptime for teather/rot phases in the same fight.

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What I am trying to get at, and what has been repeated in these threads ad nauseum, is that the raw numbers are worthless. A DNCs dps is going to be poor no matter what. What are their GCD uptimes like? Do they pocket their procs correctly? Do they ever sit on fans? Are they repeatedly misclicking steps?

That is what I have been trying to say for two weeks now. Logs are powerful and numbers mean nothing without the data.

Half of logs is to find your muscle bound mistakes. You cannot improve on a dummy if you don't know what you're doing wrong, and you'll carry those bad habits into combat. You want that nailed down so they are second nature in the fight.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Very simple solution to DPS meters.

Don't add fights that require DPS checks and you wouldn't need DPS meters.

Problem solved.

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Nah, people will still want damage if not to guarantee a clear, then to speed things up.

The DPS meter dilemma can be mitigated by increasing the effort to get data from the client into the addon. It seems, that tools like ACT can easily read the communication between server and client. Why not encrypt that data? And change the encyption keys with every patch or every server maintanance? And then there are also security techniques like ASLR. This makes it difficult to read the memory directly from the client. And none of those techniques is intrusive like root kit-like anticheat programs. :)


Cheers

Numbers are scary.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

My solution: Why not add attack dummies that have a damage number show up on top of them when you attack them them to show your damage score, so you can measure yourself without the use of an add on, and when you click off of it, the game is still the same way it was as before - without the use of an add-on. This solves every problem argued except for the people who want to judge other people. In that case, perhaps make an entirely optional instance where you can measure yourself in different scenarios (standstill, aoe, bossfights, mix, etc) and show a score to somebody as well as a breakdown so those people can be satisfied, but let's not get too distracted. My simple idea is the attack dummy with a number that shows on top of it to display your performance. Let's choose that as the starting point, and add your ideas onto that further to see if that is acceptable.

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Basically already exists. Thats essentially what SSS dummies do..

While they don't give a specific number for dps it is measurable and comparable.. if you can beat the dummy with 20 seconds left on the clock you're doing measurably more dps than if you can barely beat the dummy with 1 second left on the clock..

What SSS dummies also do though is set a bar. (even if tuning is slightly off) of what you should be able to achieve at a particular gear level. which is better than just whacking a dummy and getting a number that ultimately means nothing without a bar or reference point...

You smacked a dummy and did 10k dps.. is that good for your job? bad for your job? what about gear level? maybe you've seen job doing 15k dps so you're 10k may look bad. but if your gear is lower then your 10k may actually be very good indicating you actually have the job down pretty well just need to improve the gear.

SSS at least gives you an indication of what your theoretical damage potential should be at various given ilevels.. they also do a good of eliminating variables which is essential for any accurate analysis the variables must be controlled.

while they wont help you clear content they do at least set a bar for entry.. if you cant beat the dummy there's no way you can beat the content without being heavily carried.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

The DPS meter dilemma can be mitigated by increasing the effort to get data from the client into the addon. It seems, that tools like ACT can easily read the communication between server and client. Why not encrypt that data? And change the encyption keys with every patch or every server maintanance?

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Latency would be a big answer here... the encryption would either be minimal so as not to create latency at which point becomes cracked very easily so wouldnt stop anything. or highly encrypted which would introduce increased latency to players and make the game experience even worse.

Damage meters are totally fine to use if you personally, or even your entire static if they're in agreement, want to analyse your performance in great detail in order to fine tune things.
But it should always remain completely optional, because all of the content can be completed without it. None of this over analysation is in any way necessary, and imo bordering on OCD.

SE cannot add a native damage meter to the game, because that would be tantamount to endorsing it's use, and make it very difficult to prevent players using it to harass others or making it a de facto requirement for savage participation.

By remaining a third party add on, it can be available, optional, but not officially endorsed, it's the best of both world.
Unless you're breaking the rules by using damage meters to harass or pressure others, there's no way they can tell you're using it.

There's nothing to change, the status quo is sufficient... for the vast majority of players who aren't streamers.
If you're a steamer, don't show your damage meter on screen. You can still have it up on a dualscreen setup.

This is all just common sense stuff, don't be stupid and there's nothing SE need to change.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Very simple solution to DPS meters.

Don't add fights that require DPS checks and you wouldn't need DPS meters.

Problem solved.

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Forget it. There will always be a dps meter if it is possible to implement one. The very first addon in WoW vanilla was a dps meter. In early beta versions of this game they had already one. And there was not one single fight which required a minimum dps. :)



Cheers

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

By remaining a third party add on, it can be available, optional, but not officially endorsed, it's the best of both world.
Unless you're breaking the rules by using damage meters to harass or pressure others, there's no way they can tell you're using it.

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Unofficial endorsement is still bad because of streaming. A streamer should be discouraged from using these tools, because they otherwise are a cause of usage, and the toxicity that goes with it. By showing that a streamer can do it without (even if in secret a teammember uses it), it still gives a better example. For streaming it even should go that far that if a teammember uses such tool while the streamer is aware of it (and currently streaming), that the streamer risks a ban. Streamers are supposed to be an example. Allowing them to cheat is counter productive (yes, there are exceptions here, but usualy those are just single player games in which the streamer is only playing to entertain and not realy be competetive).

Dont give players the impression that such tool is fine! Even if you believe it doesnt harm.

Note that using damage meters doesnt directly mean any harassing, but secretly it still is. If someone wants to join, but his DPS gets measured (in secret), then that still will be the deciding factor on them. Even if the player does well on other aspects, the DPS will be used. Sure, it might be hard to detect, but once it can be detected, it instantly allows a ban (and thats a good thing!). But the thing is, if they get rejected and are very skilled, they will still know why. Which still acts as harrassment towards such player (being rejected for a false reason).

And the issue isnt in the top tier teams. They recruit in a much more critical way (just DPS meters isnt enough, they most likely even want to see a stream from your perspective). And at that point, because its localy done, DPS can be parsed from that because values get displayed (so no 3rd party tool is realy needed). Those teams realy want to know more about their teammates and wont just rely on a single number. Its usualy the sub teams that use those values. Believing they are good and are allowed to set such benchmark. They will hide their own lack of skill behind such number 'because they can reach that' (ignoring the aspect that they put extra stress on the tank/healer, or take excessive risks that often end up counter productive).

So yes, top tier teams dont need it, but only use it because they want to know where things went wrong to analyze it in detail (and using such tool makes that easier). And unlike sub teams, they wont blame as they trust everyone in doing the proper thing. Even if that resulted in the fail. Its a completely diffirent mindset (and thats why they are top tier). But at the same time, if such tool gets banned, they can still do their thing, just slower.