Handling Cheaters Gracefully vs Hardline ToS + Questionable legality of bans

When you want to talk about banning cheaters but end up talking about free speech and not wanting to ban people because they are dicks you've definitely lost focus on the problem.
Its almost as if you have a different agenda here...

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I find it a little silly that people think the devs are actually going to take a heavy-handed stance about this when they've done virtually nothing about all but the most blatant and obvious cheaters since the start of the game's life on top of it being virtually impossible them to actually block mods without installing intrusive software (Which they've specifically said they will never do).

They need to just develop better methods of screening for cheaters because some guy instantly and consistently CCing anyone who tries to use specific actions in their vicinity should be reasonably detectable via server data logs or some such.

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I can see where you are coming from, but it is a different perspective than my own. To be clear, I think they are already extremely excessive in their stance and this is only mitigated by them being fairly reasonable in their enforcement. If enforcement picks up with their position staying the same, due to community pressure, that's my concern.

Do we really need yet another thread of "I why they shouldn't be allowed to penalize me for ignoring the parts of the ToS I find inconvenient even though I said I agree'd to all terms in the document in order to use the service."?

Some things are more noticeable or impactful yes. However it's just like laws. Take speed limits for example. People are prone to violate the speed limit on a daily basis. Most in the US do this by a margin of 5mph or less and it's normally overlooked. Yet one day you do get pulled over and given a ticket. They aren't going to accept "everyone else does it" or "other people are doing worse things" as an excuse not to issue the fine.

You install these software modifications at your own risk. If it compromises your client so that it no longer works as intended or your account ends up compromised then its on you. If it sends questionable data packets into the game server resulting in a ban then that's also on you. You agreed on installation to use the service per the terms given and chose not to uphold your part in that agreement.

so, from what you are saying the problem is they are coming down on cheaters too hard?

they should suffer zero consequence, except to ban them from the content they were cheating in?

I disagree... if someone is cheating in one area, chances are pretty good they are cheating in many areas. the only difference... they werent caught. if you cheat, it is your choice to play the game that way, and as such, are responsible for your actions and the consequence of being banned. the ToS has become more hardline over time because the cheaters push the boundaries into more hardline areas with their activities. you make it sound like they are some kind of innocent bumblers who are "accidentally" cheating or using mods that give an advantage. I dont think so, it is an intentional act, and deserves a ban. not a slap on the wrist.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

When you want to talk about banning cheaters but end up talking about free speech and not wanting to ban people because they are dicks you've definitely lost focus on the problem.
Its almost as if you have a different agenda here...

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They are both part of the single larger issue of poor banning practices.

As mentioned that is a small mention in my total discussion pointing out the tangent issue and how they are corollary to each other.

You could say my agenda is, roughly, players being able to do what they want with a product being sold to them to the maximal potential.

Though my true agenda is for SE to realize that they need to be closer to that line because it allows specific enforcement rather than full service banning. That's because services which realize this are more viable and more thriving, which I want for the game I love

well this is gonna be fun
*preps popcorn*

There is no legal grey area, SE controls the servers and your rights to connect to it. If you don't play by their rules they can at any time take away your right to use their servers.
You have no recourse for this.
They're already extremely lenient in the fact that they have stated they will not crack down on any client only mods as long as they have no impact on other players and don't offer any inherent advantage. It's already don't ask don't tell, you can mod your game all you want just don't use your mods to ruin someone else's experience or talk about them in-game. It's a pretty lenient and clear set of rules imo.

That being said it's very weird you also lump in punishments for insults and harassment into this. That has nothing to do with modifying your game files for your own enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

so, from what you are saying the problem is they are coming down on cheaters too hard?

they should suffer zero consequence, except to ban them from the content they were cheating in?

I disagree... if someone is cheating in one area, chances are pretty good they are cheating in many areas. the only difference... they werent caught. if you cheat, it is your choice to play the game that way, and as such, are responsible for your actions and the consequence of being banned. the ToS has become more hardline over time because the cheaters push the boundaries into more hardline areas with their activities. you make it sound like they are some kind of innocent bumblers who are "accidentally" cheating or using mods that give an advantage. I dont think so, it is an intentional act, and deserves a ban. not a slap on the wrist.

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What I'm saying is that not all problems matter. SE has no business decided what is moral. If that happens, we all lose.
What they should be doing is protecting value for customers. When someone's actions unfairly affect other customers, what action will prevent them from doing so and disincentive others? That's where they should be thinking.

I suggest increasingly longer suspension from a particular service, because if you risk getting a year ban on the 3rd strike of cheating in CC many will be less likely to do it. Perhaps it should be stricter, perhaps a wider range of services should be suspended all at once. That's OK to tune. But some base level access should be available

Or what about if they get exiled to a prison server with a bunch of cheats? That would still allow them to have access and at least keep SE out of liability.

If someone is using a tool in a way that does not affect others it should not matter at ALL. If it does affect others, how so? Messing up something in ranked content is a major difference and lowers the rank of all players under you, previously changing what rewards you ended up with which has permanent impact on your character.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

There is no legal grey area, SE controls the servers and your rights to connect to it. If you don't play by their rules they can at any time take away your right to use their servers.
You have no recourse for this.
They're already extremely lenient in the fact that they have stated they will not crack down on any client only mods as long as they have no impact on other players and don't offer any inherent advantage. It's already don't ask don't tell, you can mod your game all you want just don't use your mods to ruin someone else's experience or talk about them in-game. It's a pretty lenient and clear set of rules imo.

That being said it's very weird you also lump in punishments for insults and harassment into this. That has nothing to do with modifying your game files for your own enjoyment.

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Unfortunately this comment is simply hostile towards what I'm presenting for the mere sake of being hostile. That is in no way accurate. There is little I can do to respond since it is purposely misrepresenting things I've already addressed.

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Originally Posted by StealthPaladin

What I'm saying is that not all problems matter. SE has no business decided what is moral. If that happens, we all lose.
What they should be doing is protecting value for customers. When someone's actions unfairly affect other customers, what action will prevent them from doing so and disincentive others? That's where they should be thinking.

If someone is using a tool in a way that does not affect others it should not matter at ALL. If it does affect others, how so? Messing up something in ranked content is a major difference and lowers the rank of all players under you, previously changing what rewards you ended up with which has permanent impact on your character.

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ah, now this makes sense. this is regarding Adventure Plate bans isnt it?

in that regard, you are aware that FFxiv is in more places than just the US and all thos eplaces have different rating standards that SE and FFxiv must conform to. you have a problem with it, I recommend you take your outrage on morals to those governments, SE is just trying to make money.