On Venat's Role in the Story

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

What threshold do I have to pass to submit posts that exceed 3000 characters? Begrudgingly split response. 1/2

I suspect the short answer is:

1) The writers decided to go all in that she was good. This meant having to justify an unjustifiable act, which required a lot of convoluted writing to excuse.
2) They wanted a closed time loop so badly they were willing to sacrifice whatever it took whether it be logic or story consistency.

I suspected #1 was a possibility, but I'd hoped it wouldn't go the route it did. The WoL has been the champion of Hydaelyn since ARR, having her as evil would've soured many a player's journey. It would seem they decided her even being morally grey was not acceptable as well.

As for #2, it was an odd choice given that ShB indicated Azem had ghosted Venat in the past after leaving the Convocation. Learning that Venat was their mentor raises even more questions as to Azem's actions. It's possible Azem didn't know what her plan was, but if they did then it seems odd our original incarnation would be opposed to her while the WoL was 100% on board. It's for this reason I wonder if we'll ever see Azem's side of the story and if that's why those plot elements were absent in EW because it would require more contrivances to explain.

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Agree with this and the OP, which was a good read and touched on many of the issues I have with it all. In order to achieve 1 they had to resort to 2 in a way that, IMO, doesn't even achieve 1, completely making a mockery of the story to the point that it is now at the level of some of Nomura's more insane fever dreams. She is remarkably less sympathetic a character than I had expected she would be, irrespective of what narrative they've tried to insert to support an opposite conclusion. Her faulty reasoning coupled with the tortured writing required to achieve 1 marks her as one of the series's worst antagonists in my books. I was hoping we'd be done with the time travel as of SHB but apparently not, it needed to make a comeback in an even more ridiculous fashion.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

She didn't tell anyone because that would create a different timeline that wouldn't result in us being where we are now. Everything she did was to ensure time would happen as she was told by the player.

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But why wouldn't it regardless? The amount of variables you need to control time in that way are countless.

You wrote up this whole giant thing about being mad about a video game and deliberately missed important facts just to prove your point or to make yourself more upset, not sure which.

I’m not going to write a whole thing refuting every point you made because I don’t have the time and it would be a wasted effort since there’s obviously no convincing you or Zodiark’s legal team on anything.

But the two things I wanted to mention from the beginning of your rant are that the whole thing with the sundering wasn’t just to limit our powers and to make us able to interact with dynamis. From the very beginning we knew that Hydaelyn broke Zodiark into pieces to put him in stasis. And with every calamity, a piece of him was returned. This happened 7 times, which means if the world was sundered any fewer times, then Zodiark would have been revived and the game would be over.

The second is that the Allagan Empire which you mention as being the thing Venat went out to prevent was itself started and guided by Ascians as admitted by Emet-Selch, so that’s a very poor example to use. The whole thing was set up to be like that from the very beginning and like the Garlean Empire, was meant to collapse in on itself to cause as much destruction and devastation as possible.

I’m still upset that after all this time we were finally able to call hydaelyn out on her lies and they’re all just immediately handwaved away….

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think a lot of dislike of Venat's Endwalker story comes from sort of a misunderstanding of the fact that... well, you're not necessarily meant to think she was in the right, it was fully intended to be unclear and ambiguous if she did the just and right thing. You thinking she did terrible things and is not a hero, while not the only intended response, is one of the intended responses.

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I'm not so sure how you reach that conclusion when the story effectively portrays her as an out-and-out hero. Again if we are meant to take any part of her scene during the Final Days literally, her speech is played as heroic even as she seemingly just kills a bunch of Zodiark worshippers. It's bizarre. I recognize that she herself says that her actions are unjustifiable, but on the other hand you say that her actions were objectively the necessary lesser evil and that all other alternatives would have been worse. Now, I don't think the story actually justifies that idea, but it certainty seems to pretend that it does.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I really don't consider Venat's decision to cause the Sundering "unjustifiable" after it's implied in the Elpis quests that the "beast" tribes were created by them.

The Ancients largely (And perhaps logically from a certain viewpoint) held to a standard that only their lives mattered but if they were poised to start routinely offering up mass sacrifices including sentient beings that were scarcely different from them aside from the amount of power/aether they held, I feel like they had it coming. Opening up a solution to the Final Days by enabling the people of Etheriys to wield dynamis was just another reason to go through with it.

Not to mention there's no guarantees their plan would've even worked; even moreso when we learn Zodiark was basically a hivemind of all the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to bring salvation following Elidibus' decision to cease being his heart, so what happens when those souls are replaced by those who are unwilling?

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This argument doesn't work. Primarily, because modern sundered life is actually much much worse on the topic of "respecting life". They'll kill anything and everything if they have a reason for it, sometimes for no reason at all. Kill to consume, kill out of fear, kill out of hate, kill out of greed, nobody even thinks twice about killing plants and animals. At least before the Final Days the Ancients were hesitant to kill anything that had gained a soul. I mean the entire reason the beast tribes themselves are considered lesser life is because the Ul'dahns propagated that idea in order to enforce an economic stranglehold on trade by driving them out of the markets. Even WoL isn't clean on this front, how many people and animals has the player killed for dubiously necessary reasons? If the Ancients "had it coming", then the Final Days 2 should have just destroyed the current world.

As to the argument about Elidibus - He only left Zodiark to try and make peace with the Venat faction. Even assuming he couldn't just get back in and control it regardless of what the souls inside wanted like Fandaniel does, that was again only an issue that came about because of Venat.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

She didn't tell anyone because that would create a different timeline that wouldn't result in us being where we are now. Everything she did was to ensure time would happen as she was told by the player.

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And yet as I pointed out before, this justification results in a massive paradox that unwinds the entire plot.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

You wrote up this whole giant thing about being mad about a video game and deliberately missed important facts just to prove your point or to make yourself more upset, not sure which.

I’m not going to write a whole thing refuting every point you made because I don’t have the time and it would be a wasted effort since there’s obviously no convincing you or Zodiark’s legal team on anything.

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"You're wrong and I can easily prove this because the facts are on my side, but I just won't." Very convincing.

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From the very beginning we knew that Hydaelyn broke Zodiark into pieces to put him in stasis. And with every calamity, a piece of him was returned. This happened 7 times, which means if the world was sundered any fewer times, then Zodiark would have been revived and the game would be over.

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Why exactly does she even need to keep him in stasis? I'll set aside for a moment the specific issue how how many times he "totally needed" to be sundered for this to work given that we've had seven rejoinings and yet Hydaelyn's seals on him remained intact, but what was the actual point of even doing that? There are no more Ancients to sacrifice to get him to enact any reality-changing powers, the Ascians clearly (as a whole) intended to maintain his existence so there was no danger of the Final Days on that front, so why even sunder him and everyone else so much? It ultimately served no purpose.

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The second is that the Allagan Empire which you mention as being the thing Venat went out to prevent was itself started and guided by Ascians as admitted by Emet-Selch, so that’s a very poor example to use.

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The Ascians and Emet-Selch aided in the Allagan Empire's technological advancement, but this is not so relevant to the topic of their self-inflicted downfall and Xande's fall to nihilism. We have no reason to think that they controlled his mind and forced him to think that way and try to destroy the star.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

She didn't tell anyone because that would create a different timeline that wouldn't result in us being where we are now. Everything she did was to ensure time would happen as she was told by the player.

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Actually, I don't believe the time loop changed Venat's plan in any way. No part of it sounds like something she wouldn't do, just something she doesn't want to do. It's not like Emet-Selch of the time, who stubbornly sticks to process above all else and refuses to believe it doesn't help; Venat recognizes that this is something she'd do if she had no other option, she just hopes to find another option until that confrontation with the people making the second Zodiark sacrifice happen.

The reason she told so few people was because it was a deep, dark, unbelievable and depressing story, so she had to pick her allies carefully to avoid causing mass hysteria (imagine if you could confirm with your own senses that a doomsday prepper was right). She can't talk to the Convocation, because Fandaniel's the only guy that knows what sort of issue they're going up against, but would be swayed to Meteion's side if he knew the truth of what happened at Ktitsis. This sort of by nature limits her options to only plans that can be done with a small group of faithful. Maybe, if she was able to sway the wider masses, they could've come up with a less morally dubious solution, but given she couldn't talk them out of the second sacrifice, that wasn't gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I'm not so sure how you reach that conclusion when the story effectively portrays her as an out-and-out hero. Again if we are meant to take any part of her scene during the Final Days literally, her speech is played as heroic even as she seemingly just kills a bunch of Zodiark worshippers. It's bizarre. I recognize that she herself says that her actions are unjustifiable, but on the other hand you say that her actions were objectively the necessary lesser evil and that all other alternatives would have been worse. Now, I don't think the story actually justifies that idea, but it certainty seems to pretend that it does.

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The way I would put this is, essentially... Venat's plan to set the ship loose on the high seas wasn't the objectively morally right one, and while there wasn't a better plan at the time, maybe at some point, one could have been figured out (although I personally think it unlikely). But at this point we've been on the waters so long we can see the port she was sailing for, so while you can absolutely condemn her for the decision, at this point it's kinda more important to focus on landing.

She's ultimately in a very similar position to Emet-Selch in Shadowbringers; while distrust is fully expected, especially at the start, we've no real choice but to listen to what she's got to say, and learn that, unfortunately, she's got a few points. The time to cast judgement on her has to wait; right now we have to stop the apocalypse she was aiming to put us in the position to end.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Thanks for the response about the character limit.

We're never going to agree about the rest. I certainly did not feel I was allowed to think ill of her. My WoL goes along with everything she does (returning to those lobotomized days of ARR) while all the major NPCs repeatedly excuse or defend her actions. Her having a couple of moments of self-awareness doesn't change anything. Speaking of ARR, I can't help but notice the similarities with Minfilia. I found her a thoroughly unlikable character, but NPCs consistently gush over her. Maybe having a few dialog options where I could've at least said "I don't agree with what you've done, but you've given me no choice other than to follow through" would have helped, instead it was quite the opposite.

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You got that line. It was in the very first scene with Venat. My memory's failing me, but it might actually be the very first dialog choice you get in the entire expansion. And personally one that actually didn't sit right with me, because both options assumed distrust, and for all the concerns around her that existed at the start, I personally had a feeling of 'there are bigger problems and mutual enemies in this world right now, I'm willing to trust you at least until they're done'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Actually, I don't believe the time loop changed Venat's plan in any way.

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This is quite doubtful given that her actions are all incredibly specific. Given her self-stated belief that nothing is impossible, why - Bereft of knowledge of the future - Would she conclude that there was no future for the Ancients, no matter what? Why would she conclude that she must work against the Convocation, rather than with them, without even having any knowledge of Hermes' involvement with Meteion? Can we really say she would have done everything exactly the same, even strange and inexplicable actions like those on the First with Ardbert much later, if she'd had no knowledge of Meteion and the cause of the Final Days at all?

On the topic of Hermes, I also believe that his involvement being a sticking point for not working with the Convocation is itself unreasonable. Firstly, because Hermes, once mindwiped, has no real reason to turn against his people and side with Meteion. He would not remember the answers she gave about the countless dead worlds, nor promising her to consider their answers whatever they might be. And even if he had, Hermes himself would be no match against the rest of the Convocation plus Venat. If he chose to stand against them and withhold his information, he couldn't possibly hinder them so outmatched as he would've been. Moreover, there is hardly any reason for things to come to that point - Venat held all the cards and Hermes had none, she could have easily tricked him into revealing all that he knew of Dynamis and Meteion, simply by questioning him about the topic of his research and his recently "failed" concept. It's hardly even a trick, it's just asking him about information that, from his perspective, he has no real reason to hide.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

This argument doesn't work. Primarily, because modern sundered life is actually much much worse on the topic of "respecting life". They'll kill anything and everything if they have a reason for it, sometimes for no reason at all. Kill to consume, kill out of fear, kill out of hate, kill out of greed, nobody even thinks twice about killing plants and animals. At least before the Final Days the Ancients were hesitant to kill anything that had gained a soul. I mean the entire reason the beast tribes themselves are considered lesser life is because the Ul'dahns propagated that idea in order to enforce an economic stranglehold on trade by driving them out of the markets. Even WoL isn't clean on this front, how many people and animals has the player killed for dubiously necessary reasons? If the Ancients "had it coming", then the Final Days 2 should have just destroyed the current world.

As to the argument about Elidibus - He only left Zodiark to try and make peace with the Venat faction. Even assuming he couldn't just get back in and control it regardless of what the souls inside wanted like Fandaniel does, that was again only an issue that came about because of Venat.

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I suppose I just find the notion of a superior race getting decide whether you get to live or die on a whim and being powerless to have any say in the matter a bit...troubling, regardless of whether they were suffering less before the sundering.

I do feel like the whole situation is still missing some important bits of context on both the pro-Zodiark and pro-Hydaelyn sides of things that would make her decision seem like more of a net positive then the game potrayed it as, though. For all we know, they could've been intending to specifically sacrifice only the non-sentient creations.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

"You're wrong and I can easily prove this because the facts are on my side, but I just won't." Very convincing.

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Bruh. It would be a much better use of both of our time to go outside and touch some grass instead of going on the forums to “debate” every single point of your essay on why you’re mad about a video game character when it’s completely obvious that you’re just going to dismiss everything I say since you’ve already got it in your mind that Venat and the writers were wrong and it’s not at all to do with you or your understanding of the game.

I agree with Theodoric on a few points. It’s painfully obvious that the game was meant to end later and they rushed this. But that’s not to say this isn’t how it was going to end from the start. Even with more content and stretching the plot out longer, Venat’s motives were always going to be the same, as well as the revelation of the cause of the Final Days. It sucks that they didn’t expand upon it much more and give the story more time to sink in before moving on, but this is how it ended up.

At this point it’s almost as if you’re trying to tell the writers of the game that their own story is wrong based on your personal understanding of the lore.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Bruh. It would be a much better use of both of our time to go outside and touch some grass instead of going on the forums to “debate” every single point with of your essay on why you’re mad about a video game character

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I don’t really get your logic here. You keep bringing up that it’s a video game character. So what? These are video game forums. These are lore forums to talk about said video game characters. It’s like you’re implying someone is lowly because they talk about video game characters. As for the touching the grass comment we both no that isn’t what you’re or really anyone else is going to do. Everyone will find a new thread to make comments on, so really it does seem like you don’t have a retort to his lore assessments and you just commented for the sake of trying to prove your side. As if people haven’t made essays on the other characters in this game. Hell, people make entire youtube videos on characters like Venat,Hydaelyn,Zodiark etc.

As for the writer comment, it isnt really personal understanding moreso than it is them undermining their own previous themes for their story, opening up massive plot holes, and just having flat out bad pacing and writing. All so i guess they can pander to the community who overlooks these sorts of things because the msq was filled with things like haha cute graha eat burger.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Bruh. It would be a much better use of both of our time to go outside and touch some grass instead of going on the forums to “debate” every single point of your essay on why you’re mad about a video game character when it’s completely obvious that you’re just going to dismiss everything I say since you’ve already got it in your mind that Venat and the writers were wrong and it’s not at all to do with you or your understanding of the game.

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Using a forum to communicate your thoughts? What a novel concept.