Endwalker Ninja

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

DNC is an improved and easier version of HW MCH.
Wildfire is the dance, Hypercharge is the super dance, Flourish is a better reload (procs everything, putting you directly in a "combo" set-up rather than having to setup the combo).

Utility based RNG is not good.

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Respectfully Disagree...well kinda. Flourish is not a better reload as it’s ; 60 seconds, you unlock it very late in its kit and does a poor job on what the intent is. While Reload gave you freedom and Quick Reload gave you a safety bridge both with small CD. In one flourish you can get 4 QR and 2 Reload that’s 10 bullets, both available in MCH old base kit of 30.

Flourish also doesn’t guarantee feathers which Is probably a personal thing for me thing but hate spamming 4 different flourishing moves for RNG to curse me when flourish should give me control.

Probably a debate for another time cuz I’m really getting off Topic. Point being if your gonna have RNG for the love of god give us a way to control it

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It depends ow impactful the RNG is. If it's significantly affecting DPS, then it's a huge issue for balance.

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The key to a good RNG or impactful one, is control. Ammo controlled your rng rotation so it rarely felt like spamming, Accelerate controlled RDM verfire and verstone to a degree that it’s never complained about. Sharpcast controls firestarter and thundercloud, Empyreal Arrow controls repertoire in any given song every 15 secs. But honestly leave those mechanics to ranged and casters not so much Melee

RNG can work, it just needs to be well used.

Easy example would be BRD and its infamous Bloodletter.
BRD players wants a second charge on Bloodletter so they won't be screwed if procs are chained a bit too fast.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

RNG can work, it just needs to be well used.

Easy example would be BRD and its infamous Bloodletter.
BRD players wants a second charge on Bloodletter so they won't be screwed if procs are chained a bit too fast.

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Old Chakra tho, it was double RNG lol.
The crit only gave you a chance to open a Chakra.
So you both needed to crit and then pass another RNG check after that too.

Even if RNG can be good, we already have several RNG-based DPS classes—there's no reason to make NIN into one.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

The bunny adds flavor imo, I don't really want to see it removed because some people can't keep their fingers in check.
There's times when lag is really bad and it happens to me but if lag is just being crap then your dps is going to suffer regardless.
If you screw up your mudras for real tho then you kinda '' deserve '' the rabbit imo and I think it's funny, I don't want to see something that adds flavor and a sliver of comedy be removed because some people get salty when they make a mistake.
I also think it acts as a way of stopping people from bad habbits.

Edit: If Mudras aren't going through and it's not because of lag in which case like I said your dps is screwed regardless and it's not worth stressing out about, then you're pressing them too fast and need to practice muscle memory.
Learn the tempo.
The game essentially rewarding you with a heal regardless of failing is just a no imo and would feel dumb.
Like '' you failed but here have a medal anyways ''.

And just like with the OP's suggestions it just feels like adding something for the sake of adding something and not because it actually makes sense or would make a real impact.
Just adding a bunch of small things for the sake of having them ain't good design imo.

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I think the issue being suggested here is just that its a punishment for failure that other classes with similar systems - most notably DNC - do not have. If they didn't set this precedent, it wouldn't be an argument. I acknowledge your stance, I personally agree with your stance, but to maintain a neutral position for the sake of discussion I'm going to write some thoughts I've had with it that otherwise don't support it.

Yes, the Mudra system is a challenge to learn at first and master, but considering FFXIV is often the most accessible game for all sorts of players of various styles, play systems and setups, (and disabilities) it does feel rather out of place now. It's a unique system but it can be streamlined pretty effectively. Again thanks to DNC as well as PVP systems showing how this can be done successfully, it could also be changed to a contextual input rather than taking up three to four entire keybinds for those with issues using them. (As dancer simply changes four of your hotbar slots, respectively, when any of the step actions are used.)

Even if we were to keep it as a whole - rabbit and all - it would seem a little more fair to refund the wasted Mudra if an incorrect mudra is used and/or a cast simply isn't used. Perhaps refunded Mudra would simply take a Potency hit? Or the refunded mudra would have a 10 second cooldown, instead of 20?

Maybe add that as a passive ability that every 90 seconds an incorrect or missed Mudra charge will be refunded? I think this would be awful as an active CD as NIN is already based around dumping abilities and another for a dump that you only *may* need seems like a waste considering the useless passives NIN already has.

There's quite a few ways to go about just this one particular issue, and I'm curious if anyone else has ideas.

The problem with the bunny is that it doesn't add anything fun.

It's a punishing failure mode for a basic part of the kit, and the punishment is not trivial—you lose the mudra charges (already a scarce resource) and get locked out of ninjutsu for several seconds. Mudras aren't difficult or skill intensive nor do they boost NIN dps past other classes—there's no reason to add a punishing failure mode. I take it that the bunny makes people feel elite for successfully casting ninjutsu—I like the ninjutsu system a lot but don't see it as significantly harder than 1-2-3 combos, so I don't get that feeling myself. Imagine if moving while casting a spell dropped your mana to 0 and prevented all regen for 6 seconds—some people (BLMs, looking at you) might find that fun, but I'm inclined to think that most would find it needlessly punishing.

At the least, I think that mudra should be greyed out once pushed until a ninjutsu is cast or 6 seconds pass. (I would go further and refund mudra if there's no ninjutsu cast after 6 seconds.)

The punishment doesn't fit the crime!

Except that DNC do get punished in that their damage is lower if they fail.
DNC is also primarily a support Job that I ultimately think is designed to be a bit more friendly to play than NIN ( even tho I think NIN is really easy too ).
And also their dances have other functions outside of damage, the only case of this for NIN are Huiton ( kinda irrelevant here ) and Suiton every 60 sec which you have another shot at and in worst case scenario Ten Chi Jin.

I don't agree with the notion that every Job essentially needs to be '' accessible '' to everyone either.
The Mudra system isn't even hard and people with most disabilities can play it just fine.
I honestly think that usually people just point to people with disabilities as a way to try and justify why they think that things need to be easier when in reality most disabled people are far more capable than they're given credit for.
There are exceptions to this but most people who are disabled do overcome it in other ways and I don't think that just because they exist that every Job/ Class in a game needs to be designed with those exceptions in mind. It's a very limiting way of approaching game design.
And quite frankly if you have problems with pushing a lot of buttons then most Jobs in this game are going to be a problem for you.
I mean the one thing I could see I guess is if you pressed Ninjutsu and it turned your 123 basic combo into the mudras and that's how you did it, but I just think that sounds clunky. I really don't even think that NIN is that bad in this regard.

I also fail to see how a small heal would add fun then.
To me the Rabbit is a fun and quirky thing that has been around since ARR, it's more fun imo than the game giving you a silver medal for failing instead of a gold medal.
Getting the Rabbit also doesn't lock you out for more than like one or two seconds at absolute most and you can still attack while that cd is going on, so if you fail it just do another attack it's that simple.

It's not about elitism either it's about the fact that I actually agree that they're not very skill intensive and that's also part of why the Rabbit is comedic in nature.
Because you failed at something that isn't actually that difficult.
And if it's not that difficult there is no reason imo why the game should be holding your hand.
Just because someone is against something being made easier or less punishing doesn't mean that they're an elitist

The punishment is also not that severe, the only case where it could be is if you're constantly messing them up which would most likely be due to lag.
At which point none of this matters because you may as well just consider your dps dead at that point.
The example about casting a spell and dropping to 0 mana without regen for 6 secs is also on a whole other level it's not comparable at all.
Missing a mudra is nowhere near that insane.

Edit: If people want to get into this then imo a more common problem than the Rabbit is not getting to reset your Mudras because the tank ( or another dps/ healer ) pulls too fast.
If you want to talk about clunky and missed out damage for dumb reasons then having to Huiton then Hide at the start is way dumber imo and it's way more common that you lose out on a Raiton that way.
Which is actually something I hope that they fix in Endwalker, I hope that the new ability in the Benchmark trailer is our new Huiton and that it's only usable in combat and deals damage to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Except that DNC do get punished in that their damage is lower if they fail.

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I think it's worth pointing that while yes, DNC gets punished if they fail, they at least still get something. Get zero steps correct on Standard Finish? 500 Potency as a consolation prize. Get only two steps correct on Technical Finish? 1,000 Potency and a 2% damage buff. In comparison, a NIN gets nothing when they fail a Mudra. If the Bunny did something like 300 Potency (weaker than Hyoton) then it wouldn't feel as bad because at least the Mudras aren't 100% wasted. DNC gives a consolation prize, NIN just has a Bunny appear on your head to give you the middle finger after a lag spike.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

I think it's worth pointing that while yes, DNC gets punished if they fail, they at least still get something. Get zero steps correct on Standard Finish? 500 Potency as a consolation prize. Get only two steps correct on Technical Finish? 1,000 Potency and a 2% damage buff. In comparison, a NIN gets nothing when they fail a Mudra. If the Bunny did something like 300 Potency (weaker than Hyoton) then it wouldn't feel as bad because at least the Mudras aren't 100% wasted. DNC gives a consolation prize, NIN just has a Bunny appear on your head to give you the middle finger after a lag spike.

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I do think the Bunny should do something. Being nothing but an emote that puts your ninjutsu on cooldown is a sort of punishment no other job has.
Even if using the Bunny did something like reduce the cooldown of your mudras by 10s or something, so that your next one will come quicker.
Sure in high level content that won't be much because using them earlier will offset your rotation, but higher level players shouldn't be getting the Bunny anyway. For casual players, it would help them out more when they fail.